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Paul Bird

Legality of data logging digital dashes and stand alone EMS?

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Paul Bird

The question of the legality of running a Stack dash in the "World Challenge Saleen" thread is a good one and one that needs to be clarified. The question as I see it is, "Are digital displays and engine management systems 'data loggers?'" If they are then 99% of them are all going to be illegal.

 

All stand alone engine management system that I know of (AEM, FAST, Accel, Motec, EFI, Haltec, Wolf, Bosch, Autronic, Electromotive, etc.) can log and are all over $1,200. Are they all illegal?

 

This goes for just about every digital display out there as well. The AIM MXL that I am using (Pista version that was <$1,200 when I bought it two years ago) would also be illegal if bought today. Keep in mind that it is the only 'gauge' I have and provides all of my warning and shift lights. It also cost me less than a full assortment of Autometer gauges, warning, and shift lights, has 8 MB of memory and, just like a $700 stand alone data logger, can log anything on the car.

 

As there are only a handful of stand alone 'data loggers' on the market and a ton of engine management systems and digital displays, I think the rule needs to be rewritten. If these systems are considered 'data loggers' and are illegal under the current rule then I am a strongly in favor of removing any limitation in AI or AIX. This slope is very steep, very slippery and getting worse every day as new products come to market.

 

Either way, this needs to be clarified as I don't want to get booted from an event because I am logging engine vitals and lap times.

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Cheyne

I would like to see the rule read "Data Acquisition is legal in NASA." I have found after 10 years of racing is that there are no cost controls. If you tell me I can only spend $1200 on data then I will go out and hire Paul Brown to help setup the car for me. Or I might spend 5 days testing to get the car right for one race. Or I might buy new tires for ever other session and the list can go on for ever.

 

Cheyne

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Jeff F

The way the rules were written last year allowed the standalone EMS:

 

2005 rule:

7.10.2 Data acquisition devices, except those that are allowed per the NASA CCR are prohibited in AI and are allowed only for fuel and engine control mapping purposes in AIX.

2006 rule:

7.10.2 Commercially available data acquisition devices with a retail price of less than $1200 new are allowed.

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b_tone
The way the rules were written last year allowed the standalone EMS:

 

 

2006 rule:

7.10.2 Commercially available data acquisition devices with a retail price of less than $1200 new are allowed.

 

This brings up another question. What if the price went up since you last purchased the item as is the case with Robin Burnett's AIM system that he paid $1199 for and is now up over $1800?

 

Also, what constitutes a "retail" price? What if I happen to know a guy that is the wholesaler for a particular item (say an AIM system) and he'll give it to me for under limit yet everyone else has to pay over the limit?

 

This type of issue needs to be addressed before it gets messy.

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racercosmo

Brian, "retail" in these cases is usually the MSRP or racer net, such as the transmission rule in AIX. It's the one standard that is easily verifiable.

That's one of the reasons that we must buy tires from the chosen dealers to get Toyo credit. I can get any Toyo tire I want for $40, so it wouldn't be fair if I was racing against you who must pay 5 times that much.

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b_tone
Brian, "retail" in these cases is usually the MSRP or racer net, such as the transmission rule in AIX. It's the one standard that is easily verifiable.

That's one of the reasons that we must buy tires from the chosen dealers to get Toyo credit. I can get any Toyo tire I want for $40, so it wouldn't be fair if I was racing against you who must pay 5 times that much.

 

What if a racer here in the OH/IN region were from canada and has to pay inflated canadian prices?

 

I do see your point but there are still plenty of work arounds that need to be addressed.

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mwilson7

Cosmo,

 

I'd like to buy some tires from you!!

 

Who is policing that tires are purchased from one of the authorized dealers?

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Paul Bird
I can get any Toyo tire I want for $40, so it wouldn't be fair if I was racing against you who must pay 5 times that much.

 

What if he has 10 times more income than you do? Is that still fair? Seriously, if you can get tires for $40 each and they are exactly the same as the ones you HAVE to buy for $200 each then there is something very wrong somewhere.

 

Anyway back to the data logging. Let make sure I have this right, I can have a $60,000, 900 hp all aluminum Yates built 427 in my all carbon fiber bodied, Moton 4-way ajustable shocked car but for cost containment reasons I can't run a data logger that costs over $1,200. Hmmm.

 

As Cheyne has stated this needs to be an "Allowed" rule and not one tied to cost. It is simply too difficult to define or police.

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trackboss

Not that I really care much about data logging, but pricing is probably the easiest way to control data logging capability. If these sorts of things continuously are allowed to be free then there are some that will own cars that cost well over $100k. If someone is stupid enough to spend $60k on a motor for an AIX car then so be it, but it would really hurt when a $30k ASC car runs circles around it. I think its best to get some control before things get way out of hand.

 

-V

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racercosmo
Cosmo,

 

I'd like to buy some tires from you!!

 

Who is policing that tires are purchased from one of the authorized dealers?

The policing is done by turning in the receipts to show that you purchased shaved RA-1s from the authorized dealers. Toyo gives us money back at the end of the year because we follow the rules of their program. We do it because it's right.

 

Sure, I guess you could buy them somewhere else, but it would look fishy if you never bought tires, yet always have good rubber on the car. They last a long time, but not that long.

 

And no. That was mostly to illustrate a point. Toyo knows which size we use and sends us a set now and then for each car at that price. 205 and 235-40-17s might not be the hot ticket for your Mustang.

I'm still waiting for R888s for my car.

 

 

Now back to the discussion of data logging units.

Brian, as I said, it's likely what the manufacturer says the unit is worth. Whether you buy it on ebay for $100, or pay $2000 for it in New Zealand and $700 for next day air shipping to Michigan, it's legal if the MSRP is $1200 or less.

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b_tone

Now back to the discussion of data logging units.

Brian, as I said, it's likely what the manufacturer says the unit is worth. Whether you buy it on ebay for $100, or pay $2000 for it in New Zealand and $700 for next day air shipping to Michigan, it's legal if the MSRP is $1200 or less.

 

I see what you are saying but keep in mind that many products (AIM, race technology etc) come from overseas and the price is dependant upon the exchange rate to the dollar that that is always fluctuating. I know that there was an increase with the RT stuff last year mid year because of that very reason.

 

This will be an interesting discussion to follow that's for sure.

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pederb
I can get any Toyo tire I want for $40, so it wouldn't be fair if I was racing against you who must pay 5 times that much.

 

What if he has 10 times more income than you do? Is that still fair? Seriously, if you can get tires for $40 each and they are exactly the same as the ones you HAVE to buy for $200 each then there is something very wrong somewhere.

 

Anyway back to the data logging. Let make sure I have this right, I can have a $60,000, 900 hp all aluminum Yates built 427 in my all carbon fiber bodied, Moton 4-way ajustable shocked car but for cost containment reasons I can't run a data logger that costs over $1,200. Hmmm.

 

As Cheyne has stated this needs to be an "Allowed" rule and not one tied to cost. It is simply too difficult to define or police.

 

 

http://americanironracing.com/American-Iron-Rule-Change-Request.pdf

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Paul Bird

I first would like a clarification/interpretation of the current rule as it applies to multi-functional devices such as dashes, gauges and engine managment systems. Also, don't forget video systems as many are over $1,200 as well.

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snipes25r

So what does this rule mean for me? I have a Stack dash system that came installed on my ex-GAC 95 mustang. It is supposed to have data logging capability, but I have no software to aquire the data. I contacted Stack, and they want @ $2500.00 to 'upgrade' my (antique) system so I can log data. Since I don't have the cash, I figure it's just an instrumentation system. Would I be able to use it as instrumentation in AIX? For all I know, the original purchase price was under the limit...

 

Seems to me the ability to log data could reduce the cost of racing over time. Since I might be able to tell when fuel pressure or oil pressure is putting the engine at risk and make adjustments before it results in engine failure.

 

I'd like to see some clairification of this rule.

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Mystic_Cobra
Cosmo,

The policing is done by turning in the receipts to show that you purchased shaved RA-1s from the authorized dealers. Toyo gives us money back at the end of the year because we follow the rules of their program. We do it because it's right.

 

I thought the Toyo deal was changed so we get discount pricing up front instead of a "mail-in rebate". Is there still a rebate in 05?, 06?

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JWL

Guys-

 

Data acq addressed here: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7453. Enjoy.

 

-JWL

 

P.S. Jimmy, Toyo's 2005 program did give mail-in rebates to the top finishing competitors. We're working on the renewal for the 2006 season and hope to have something done in the next few weeks.

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