Rule Change: Penalty for “A” tires

[Alan_Wolfe]

On 10/9/2019 at 2:14 PM, daytonars4 said:

The issue people have with the A's isn't actually the price. It is that they only have their peak performance for 2-3 HC's therefore forcing some to feel like they have to keep spending money on new tires to stay competitive. Versus some of the other tires that may be a tad slower but much longer competitive life. 

I have not found that to be the case.  I put the A7s in the rotation exactly like I was using the R7s.  The A7s are easier to get up to temp on the out lap, but must be driven within their envelope of operation or they will fall off faster than the R7s.  And I agree when driven correctly A7s are very consistent throughout the race, even in the Texas heat.

Seems "some" people are undertired or overdriving their tires.  That's no excuse to punish everyone.  

Still against this rule proposal. 

[rokkit]

7 hours ago, brant giere said:

Hoosier A's are on par with slicks. Either make them equivalent or allow us to run any tire we choose. 

Um, tire is unlimited already haha. So run an A

[rokkit]

5 hours ago, Haehntrain said:

Something also to really consider is establishing rules on aero. Rear diffusers and front splitters and such on the BMW's were ridiculous in comparison to the Cup cars. It would take a GT3R package to compete with that aero. This is just my opinion. 

Hold up. So you're saying your off the shelf aero kit from porche can't keep up with a plywood splitter. Come on. Just go to home Depot like the rest of us and bolt it on dude. Haha

[Emag]

8 hours ago, brant giere said:

Hoosier A's are on par with slicks. Either make them equivalent or allow us to run any tire we choose. 

This is absolutely false.  We’re talking autocross tires.  Yeah they’re good for a couple of laps but Michelin slicks run peak performance for hours.  Look at this years ST3 championship race for comparison.  Some ST racers even want MORE penalty for slicks.

 

As for the aero thing, if you think you need an RSR body to compete with Thorne’s plywood splitter, my self made carbon, or Sousa’s plywood, then so be it.  These things were made by hand and will never see a wind tunnel.  Or, we can help use ingenuity to add front downforce to your cars at a fraction of the price ?

[1jeffcat]

A7 and R7 have the same amount of grip.  A7s just seem faster because they build temp quicker and get into a temperature range quicker.  I suppose if you had a huge A7 and a light car, you could make the case you could be faster on them as you could stay in the operating range.  Other than that, the grip between the two is pretty similar.  Not just my take...that's straight from hoosier themselves.  Obviously slicks are significantly stickier than the A7 or R7, just like TRUE hoosier slicks like the R25B or something crazy like that.  

Edited October 13, 2019 by 1jeffcat

[Haehntrain]

12 hours ago, Emag said:

This is absolutely false.  We’re talking autocross tires.  Yeah they’re good for a couple of laps but Michelin slicks run peak performance for hours.  Look at this years ST3 championship race for comparison.  Some ST racers even want MORE penalty for slicks.

 

As for the aero thing, if you think you need an RSR body to compete with Thorne’s plywood splitter, my self made carbon, or Sousa’s plywood, then so be it.  These things were made by hand and will never see a wind tunnel.  Or, we can help use ingenuity to add front downforce to your cars at a fraction of the price ?

You would think that.....but the gentleman you won nationals had his is fastest lap on the last lap of a 45 minute race. Your argument doesn't hold water. And I'm sorry do you even know what a BMW GTR is ? I believe that is not homemade aero. Evidently you don't know what a GT3R is as well. 

[911.racer]

Haehntrain,

Don't hate too much for aero.  You will be seeing the Demon Speed car coming back next year with a fairly aggressive Aero package.  Plans are to include swan neck wing with 14" cord, aggressive splitter, and we are working on a diffuser like you have seen on the Pank car at IGT.

All of this is in conjunction with GOODAero and will be available for purchase either as individual parts or as a package.

Thanks

Ed

[daytonars4]

2 hours ago, Haehntrain said:

You would think that.....but the gentleman you won nationals had his is fastest lap on the last lap of a 45 minute race. Your argument doesn't hold water. And I'm sorry do you even know what a BMW GTR is ? I believe that is not homemade aero. Evidently you don't know what a GT3R is as well. 

   I think if you watch his in car video you will have a better perspective on why he was faster late in the race. He started from the back. Had to deal with a ton of traffic and being blocked repeatedly by some cars. So obviously once he got open track later his times dropped. If you allow slicks with no mod he’ll probably throw on Michelin’s and end up being even faster than everyone else. At some point you have to acknowledge maybe he’s just that good of a driver. He races regularly in NE where everyone is on A tires and he still puts a gap on the field.

   If the Porsche guys are so convinced A’s are just as fast as slicks why don’t they just run them? No matter how many times it’s said you will never convince a majority of GTS racers that A’s are the same pace over a 45 minute race as slicks so it’s honestly a pointless argument. One of the Directors ran Slicks Sat at Watkins and DOT Sunday. Slicks were like 2+ seconds faster than the autocross tire. Even Hoosier quotes the same 1.5s+ type of delta. This reminds me of the guy who last year tried to convince everyone that a sequential makes your car slower. It’s not gonna work!

   Perception is a seq and slicks are faster and therefore you need to mod it for the sake of the series. I’d love to see data from one of these factory built Cup’s run the same laptimes on sticker A’s and sticker Michelin’s. That should be where the discussion starts. Not pointing at another driver who is better and trying to argue it must be the tires. 

[Emag]

3 hours ago, Haehntrain said:

You would think that.....but the gentleman you won nationals had his is fastest lap on the last lap of a 45 minute race. Your argument doesn't hold water. And I'm sorry do you even know what a BMW GTR is ? I believe that is not homemade aero. Evidently you don't know what a GT3R is as well. 

I have 3 track records in GTS3 on A7s and they were all on the second lap of the race.  

Qualified on pole 7/9 GTS3 races this year including Nationals, on A7s, all on the first hot lap of the session.  

More than willing to provide data.  

Edited October 13, 2019 by Emag

[911.racer]

6 hours ago, daytonars4 said:

 

   If the Porsche guys are so convinced A’s are just as fast as slicks why don’t they just run them? No matter how many times it’s said you will never convince a majority of GTS racers that A’s are the same pace over a 45 minute race as slicks so it’s honestly a pointless argument. One of the Directors ran Slicks Sat at Watkins and DOT Sunday. Slicks were like 2+ seconds faster than the autocross tire. Even Hoosier quotes the same 1.5s+ type of delta. This reminds me of the guy who last year tried to convince everyone that a sequential makes your car slower. It’s not gonna work!

   Perception is a seq and slicks are faster and therefore you need to mod it for the sake of the series. I’d love to see data from one of these factory built Cup’s run the same laptimes on sticker A’s and sticker Michelin’s. That should be where the discussion starts. Not pointing at another driver who is better and trying to argue it must be the tires. 

 

Lawrence,

 

Why are we turning this into a Porsche vs BMW thing.  I am sure there are Porsche's out there running A's.  This is about doing the right thing.

Why do we keep referencing Michelins.  They do not have the same mystique that they used to.  And, they are a knifes edge.  You need to have them perfect for them to work right.  If you are out of the window just a bit, then you are dead.

If slicks with the penalty are faster than A's without the penalty, then why doesn't unlimited budget guys like Robert Thorne run slicks.  Why would he choose an autocross tire for a 45 minute race if between that and not having a penalty the best choice.

I read your comments about Thorne, however, that is not who Haehn is referencing.  Thorne did not win the race, although he was fast lap, which came in the last 3rd of the race.  

Only one car held Thorne up, by the way.

Also, I did not see that you raised your hand to say you run A's.  Do you.  If you don't, why are you posting so much on this subject.

Thanks

Ed

[daytonars4]

39 minutes ago, 911.racer said:

 

Lawrence,

 

Why are we turning this into a Porsche vs BMW thing.  I am sure there are Porsche's out there running A's.  This is about doing the right thing.

Why do we keep referencing Michelins.  They do not have the same mystique that they used to.  And, they are a knifes edge.  You need to have them perfect for them to work right.  If you are out of the window just a bit, then you are dead.

If slicks with the penalty are faster than A's without the penalty, then why doesn't unlimited budget guys like Robert Thorne run slicks.  Why would he choose an autocross tire for a 45 minute race if between that and not having a penalty the best choice.

I read your comments about Thorne, however, that is not who Haehn is referencing.  Thorne did not win the race, although he was fast lap, which came in the last 3rd of the race.  

Only one car held Thorne up, by the way.

Also, I did not see that you raised your hand to say you run A's.  Do you.  If you don't, why are you posting so much on this subject.

Thanks

Ed

I have run A’s since 2015 Nationals. I’ve also tended to run R7’s primarily Bc they last more HC’s. There’s a variance between required setup etc for the different DOT tires. Have you ever run a set of Michelin Wets and compared them to DOT H2O’s? If you have you know the Michelin’s are just flat out faster. So how can you justify leveling slicks with DOT? If slicks no longer have an edge as you say how about we just ban them from GTS? It will allow us to simplify the rule set? 

I’m all for real world data. Put a set of A7’s on your car and let’s see a data overlay with your pace on slicks. If you genuinely thought the A7’s were the same pace you would be running them and not taking the slick mod. Instead you are here trying to convince everyone by defying logic  without any actual data of same car same driver with slicks vs A7’s. Pointing to other cars and saying “They have A tires and are beating me, therefore A’s must be the same pace as slicks” is ridiculous. Next you’ll be trying to convince us again that a sequential makes your car slower than if you have a manual Cup.

Edited October 13, 2019 by daytonars4

[911.racer]

I am confused by your first sentence.  You run A's or R's for the heat cycles.

Thanks

Ed

[daytonars4]

I’ve had A’s cord in 10 HC’s. R’s Last 20+. So I tend to lean toward the R’s. And yes, I’ve seen my pace be .5-1s faster on A’s for me Bc I’m not optimizing temps on R’s. Someone more experienced with setup has less of a delta from what I’ve heard.

[BOXSTERBOB]

Run the tires you bring.  Remove the penalty for slicks since they are equal to the A's  these days.

[JoeMag]

I would also be in favor of making A's hp to wt rules same as non-dot's.  No doubt they're faster than R's.

[focusedintntions]

I have yet to see anyone post any real evidence to show that A's are faster than R's...just a lot of conjecture comparing different cars in different circumstances.  Amazing to me that if A's are as fast as slicks, that people don't run those and not take a penalty as well.  That just doesn't seem like a smart move..

[Bhicks]

I’d be for removing the tire penalty altogether. Would simplify calculate, impound, etc. 

[Bhicks]

I’d be for removing the tire penalty altogether. Would simplify calculate, impound, etc.

[Emag]

2 hours ago, BOXSTERBOB said:

Run the tires you bring.  Remove the penalty for slicks since they are equal to the A's  these days.

Where is the data to support this?  I can supply data from 4 tracks in 3 classes (GTS3, GTS4, and ST3) that show a decline in performance in A7s after 2 laps.  Experience racing both amateurs and professionals on slicks has lead me to believe that they take longer to reach optimum temperature but maintain peak performance over an entire race / session.  Perhaps data from a car on slicks can support this.  

Based on the intended purpose described by the manufacturers, this makes complete sense.  One is recommended for autocross and the other for racing. 

Don’t let a lap time fool you, these are completely different animals.

That being said, they are in no way “equal”.

[16Racing]

I would support removing the penalty for slicks and go to a run what you brung rule. I have only been back in GTS this year. I run Pirelli Pzero so that I can run the car in PCA GTC3 where it is the spec tire. My anecdotal experience is that guys on As seem to have more grip in the first few laps as I build heat in the Pirellis. Our races typically are short 25-40mins of actual race time, and any degradation of the As in this time frame appears minimal. 
Thanks 

[daytonars4]

19 minutes ago, 16Racing said:

I would support removing the penalty for slicks and go to a run what you brung rule. I have only been back in GTS this year. I run Pirelli Pzero so that I can run the car in PCA GTC3 where it is the spec tire. My anecdotal experience is that guys on As seem to have more grip in the first few laps as I build heat in the Pirellis. Our races typically are short 25-40mins of actual race time, and any degradation of the As in this time frame appears minimal. 
Thanks 

What I have to ask is if the Porsche community is so convinced that A's are just as fast as slicks, why are most of you running slicks and taking the penalty? They cost twice as much and you are adding weight for them. It's not that hard for you to have a cheap set of A's to throw on for NASA events. Something simply isn't adding up here. Removing the slick mod in no way promotes growth of GTS. I am also still waiting for one of you to show data proving that you can with the same car same driver over a 40 minute session matching the same pace with slicks AND A7's. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by daytonars4

[16Racing]

As mentioned in the quoted comment, for my car to run in PCA GTC3, which is essentially a spec 996 cup class, I have to run 245/18 and 305/18 Pirelli Pzeros.  To run an equivalent Hoosier requires adjustment of the suspension links to get the correct ride height.  It is too much of a pain to change suspension each time I run with a different group. 

[daytonars4]

2 minutes ago, 16Racing said:

As mentioned in the quoted comment, for my car to run in PCA GTC3, which is essentially a spec 996 cup class, I have to run 245/18 and 305/18 Pirelli Pzeros.  To run an equivalent Hoosier requires adjustment of the suspension links to get the correct ride height.  It is too much of a pain to change suspension each time I run with a different group. 

All I'm asking is for 1 of you to provide data showing that you can match the same pace with A7's as you run with slicks with your car over a 40 minute race. Is that too much to ask?

[f.millan]

20 minutes ago, 16Racing said:

As mentioned in the quoted comment, for my car to run in PCA GTC3, which is essentially a spec 996 cup class, I have to run 245/18 and 305/18 Pirelli Pzeros.  To run an equivalent Hoosier requires adjustment of the suspension links to get the correct ride height.  It is too much of a pain to change suspension each time I run with a different group. 

im sorry, but this is not a legitimate issue.  Car set up is required for even switching from R's to As.   I know guys changing out springs and set ups PER TRACK.  IF you feel there is no advantage running non-dot's over a hoosier than dont.  it will save you money and you can run at the same ratio as the rest of your class.  

 

i run R1S in the north east.  i am not for the compound rule change.  i am however for a tire size rule change as long as its coherent through out the classes.  

 

 

[sips56]

1 hour ago, 16Racing said:

As mentioned in the quoted comment, for my car to run in PCA GTC3, which is essentially a spec 996 cup class, I have to run 245/18 and 305/18 Pirelli Pzeros.  To run an equivalent Hoosier requires adjustment of the suspension links to get the correct ride height.  It is too much of a pain to change suspension each time I run with a different group. 

So the basis for changing the rules is so you run in PCA and don't want to make changes to do so?  There is only one thing I push back harder on than the "I want to jump from ST to GTS make it easy for me" asks and that is I want to run CCA or PCA "make it easy."   GTS Rule changes are about making NASA GTS better, and all other considerations don't add value in my opinion.