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Racerwong

Rule Change: Penalty for “A” tires

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Racerwong

Been talk about this.  Some say A7s are equal to slicks. 
 

I say run what you bring.  A7s aren’t the same as true and new slicks.  Sorry

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rokkit

The only way that a penalty for compound would work is if we also regulated size because a 295 R Will always be quicker than a 245A

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daytonars4

I find it unlikely that there is anyone with data showing that car A with driver A is the same pace on sticker slicks as they are with sticker A7’s. And you can’t compare data from different cars because 1 driver is likely better than the other and that’s not a controlled experiment. 

There is a reason that the TCR’s at National in ST3 were running Michelin slicks which have no contingency and take a tire penalty. If A7’s were just as fast obviously they would run them. Rumberg actually laughed at me when I suggested he run a Hoosier instead. So I think that’s a pretty telling hint ... I agree with rokkit 😱 ... If you are so worried about tires how about looking at tire mods for exceeding x width in each class. 

 

Lawrence Gibson 

Midatlantic GTS2/ST3

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Michael G.

But how A compare to R? Most of the GTS guys in the NE myself including run A7 because those are faster than R and hold as well. Should we consider ratio adjustment for A? There is also a sentiment to regulate wide body and wide tires (we've seen it last year during the discussion), but no workable proposal on the table yet. Would be interesting to see how is that to be proposed to combine tire compound and size, but that requires a very smart and comprehensive approach.

 

Michael G.

GTS Nat Dir.

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gofastzach

if we consider a ratio change for A vs R will we consider a sliding scale for pirelli hards vs mediums vs softs? 

 

Can't even believe this is a conversation.......

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daytonars4

The is exactly the can of worms you are opening. Hoosier A7’s are a little faster for 2-3 HC’s than BFG R1S’s. R1S’s are faster than R7’s. R7’s are faster than BFG R1. Slicks which are faster than all of the above have soft/med/hard. So are you going to make a mod for every compound variance?

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Michael G.

I am just being a Devil's Advocate here and not proposing the change. But we need to be clear - actually we do penalize tires based on the compound now, as slicks vs DOTs. There is a great variety of compounds with in those categories as it was mentioned. We let drivers choose the combination of size, type  and set ups. The ratios differentials assigned to the penalty for slicks vs. DOTs are 20 years old. Those days we had very different cars and very different tires.The margin of performance between certain compounds of DOTs and slicks is much narrower now. Until few years ago we could only consider using autocross DOT compounds for a few laps of Q session. Now, it is a primary type of tire to use for sprint races for many with great success. As hold equally to Rs, as many heat cycles, in wide variety of weather conditions and universally faster.  If we don't want to deal with it, we might consider to forget about the tire penalties at all. Why not? The system we have now is outdated and hardly represent current conditions. There is hardly a price difference today too, so the motion of saving is hardly valid. You can get take offs for the fraction of the cost.

On another hand, if we will agree that A is faster than R, than we may consider a small penalty (I would actually call it relief for R) moving entire scale down a bit. That may address the calls for lowering ratios in the other thread. For example - 

GTS 1 - 18 (slicks), 17 (A), 16 (R)

GTS 2 - 14.5 (slicks), 14 (A), 13,5 (R)

GTS 3 - 11.5 (slicks), 11 (A), 10.5 (R)

GTS 4 - 9 (slicks), 8.5 (A), 8 (R),

GTS 5 - 7 (slicks), 6,5 (A), 6 (R).

That is just a thought, rough idea of sort - not a proposal. I would greatly welcome comments on this. 

Just need to mention that those thoughts are driven by the number of messages and opinions, received from different drivers, regions,  different perspectives and points of view. I believe most are driven by the sole interest to make the series better. We must find the most reasonable and productive compromise.

Alternatively, we can always leave it as is.

Michael G.

GTS Dir.

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focusedintntions
10 hours ago, Michael G. said:

I am just being a Devil's Advocate here and not proposing the change. But we need to be clear - actually we do penalize tires based on the compound now, as slicks vs DOTs. There is a great variety of compounds with in those categories as it was mentioned. We let drivers choose the combination of size, type  and set ups. The ratios differentials assigned to the penalty for slicks vs. DOTs are 20 years old. Those days we had very different cars and very different tires.The margin of performance between certain compounds of DOTs and slicks is much narrower now. Until few years ago we could only consider using autocross DOT compounds for a few laps of Q session. Now, it is a primary type of tire to use for sprint races for many with great success. As hold equally to Rs, as many heat cycles, in wide variety of weather conditions and universally faster.  If we don't want to deal with it, we might consider to forget about the tire penalties at all. Why not? The system we have now is outdated and hardly represent current conditions. There is hardly a price difference today too, so the motion of saving is hardly valid. You can get take offs for the fraction of the cost.

On another hand, if we will agree that A is faster than R, than we may consider a small penalty (I would actually call it relief for R) moving entire scale down a bit. That may address the calls for lowering ratios in the other thread. For example - 

GTS 1 - 18 (slicks), 17 (A), 16 (R)

GTS 2 - 14.5 (slicks), 14 (A), 13,5 (R)

GTS 3 - 11.5 (slicks), 11 (A), 10.5 (R)

GTS 4 - 9 (slicks), 8.5 (A), 8 (R),

GTS 5 - 7 (slicks), 6,5 (A), 6 (R).

That is just a thought, rough idea of sort - not a proposal. I would greatly welcome comments on this. 

Just need to mention that those thoughts are driven by the number of messages and opinions, received from different drivers, regions,  different perspectives and points of view. I believe most are driven by the sole interest to make the series better. We must find the most reasonable and productive compromise.

Alternatively, we can always leave it as is.

Michael G.

GTS Dir.

As someone that has always run R's...i'm not against this idea *laughs*

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daytonars4

Of course Chris and Matt in Midatlantic will love this proposal because they are already running R7's and just as fast as the guys on R1S tires.lol I keep seeing it repeated that A's are comparable to slicks. Can someone please present proof of this assessment. Let's see 1 unbiased racer in 1 car run both a sticker A7 and sticker Michelin with the minor chassis adjustments to be optimal for each tire. I'm sure we can get one of the faster NASA racers or a pro level driver to participate in this experiment. I find it unlikely that the proposed gap of .5 which is roughly 100lbs will level out that performance. The car on Michelin's will still be faster. And the idea of allowing slicks in GTS with no penalty at all is a terrible idea. Sounds as bad as last years argument that a sequential makes a race car slower 😂

To me it seems this tiered change wouldn't really bring any new racers to the class. Unless you somehow incorporate it with tire width, the same guys that complain about compound are going to continue to complain about the width. Actually it may even be worse bc now someone on 315 R7's will have more power than a guy on 245 A7's. 

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Alan_Wolfe
Posted (edited)

For the tire size I run the cost difference between the A7 & R7 is $0.00/tire.  Tire Rack & Trackdaytire

Against Hoosier tire A7 penalty

Edited by Alan_Wolfe
Faulty memory

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daytonars4
1 hour ago, Alan_Wolfe said:

For the tire size I run the cost difference between the A7 & R7 is $0.00/tire.  Tire Rack & Trackdaytire

Against Hoosier tire A7 penalty

The issue people have with the A's isn't actually the price. It is that they only have their peak performance for 2-3 HC's therefore forcing some to feel like they have to keep spending money on new tires to stay competitive. Versus some of the other tires that may be a tad slower but much longer competitive life. 

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focusedintntions

I would support tire mods like this seriously though.  But we can't be measuring tires with the same silly things they use in ST.  Measuring 1/2 way up the sidewall of a tire isn't a relevant measurement. 

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911.racer

There are those who have posted here that there is no proof that A's are as fast as slicks, but no one is disagreeing that A's are faster than R's. 

As has been stated here, the difference between tire compounds is getting closer and closer.  R's are becoming more like grooved slicks and A's are just a softer version of R's.  And, the A's are lasting longer than they ever have.  The A's are faster than R's and slicks for the start of the race, but then they slow down.  Slicks take time to get to temp, so they do not have the first two or 3 lap advantage.  The question is, that can a car running slicks make up the lost ground in the first 3 laps of the race.

The question also is coming up, are A's faster than Slicks.  Well, in GTS4, the last two years the car that won championships was on A's for a 45 minute race.  Turned his fastest laps in the last 3rd of the race this year.

The car that would have been second if not for an incident in the last lap also was running A's

Obviously there should be a BOP if we are actually going to have a penalty for any tire.

I would advocate for removing the tire penalty at all.  It would make the calculator and impound easier.   As RacerWong says, run what you brung.

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focusedintntions

Ed,

I have never once said that A's are faster than R's....They're capable of the same laptime, you just have to work the R's harder to get them into the right temp range.  Most drivers aren't doing this fast enough at the start of a race.  A is much easier to get into the proper temp range and seems faster to people b/c of that.  I'm for the mod b/c purely b/c it'd be an advantage for someone who has learned to use and get the most out of the R's. 

Really what is needed to properly mod the tires is a new set of each, the same car (with setup changes for each tire), the same driver, and same day testing to get weather as close as possible.  Your conjecture of what drivers were using what tires is purely speculative and doesn't account the different cars, and driver abilities. 

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911.racer

Posted Tuesday at 07:15 PM

I find it unlikely that there is anyone with data showing that car A with driver A is the same pace on sticker slicks as they are with sticker A7’s. And you can’t compare data from different cars because 1 driver is likely better than the other and that’s not a controlled experiment. 

There is a reason that the TCR’s at National in ST3 were running Michelin slicks which have no contingency and take a tire penalty. If A7’s were just as fast obviously they would run them. Rumberg actually laughed at me when I suggested he run a Hoosier instead. So I think that’s a pretty telling hint ... I agree with rokkit 😱 ... If you are so worried about tires how about looking at tire mods for exceeding x width in each class. 

 

Lawrence Gibson 

Midatlantic GTS2/ST3

 

 

Originally the reason that the Slicks have a penalty over the R's was because the issue was to keep the cost down for racing since at the time slicks were only good for 2 or 3 heat cycles.  Now Slicks are going 10 or more heat cycles, so cost is not an issue there any more.

You are making the exact same argument that the original DOT vs Slick was that the A's do not last as long and cost a bunch more money.  Or else what, everyone running DOT's would choose A's over R's. 

Exactly the reason there should be a penalty for A's over R's.

Also, says you run ST4.  Isnt there a penalty for Autocross tires in ST4 ?

Edited by 911.racer

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911.racer
30 minutes ago, focusedintntions said:

Ed,

I have never once said that A's are faster than R's....They're capable of the same laptime, you just have to work the R's harder to get them into the right temp range.  Most drivers aren't doing this fast enough at the start of a race.  A is much easier to get into the proper temp range and seems faster to people b/c of that.  I'm for the mod b/c purely b/c it'd be an advantage for someone who has learned to use and get the most out of the R's. 

Really what is needed to properly mod the tires is a new set of each, the same car (with setup changes for each tire), the same driver, and same day testing to get weather as close as possible.  Your conjecture of what drivers were using what tires is purely speculative and doesn't account the different cars, and driver abilities. 

Agreed.  My statement about the winners of the last two championships was to rebut the statement about the winners of this years ST3 championship.

If we were to actually have any penalties for any tires, we should make incremental changes and monitor the results rather than pick one car platform and try different tires. The former is exactly what pro race organizations do.

However, I would still advocate no penalties for any and run what you brung.  Alternately, I would advocate for reducing the slick penalty a little and adding a little for the A's.  Not making A's and slicks equal. 

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daytonars4
2 hours ago, 911.racer said:

Posted Tuesday at 07:15 PM

I find it unlikely that there is anyone with data showing that car A with driver A is the same pace on sticker slicks as they are with sticker A7’s. And you can’t compare data from different cars because 1 driver is likely better than the other and that’s not a controlled experiment. 

There is a reason that the TCR’s at National in ST3 were running Michelin slicks which have no contingency and take a tire penalty. If A7’s were just as fast obviously they would run them. Rumberg actually laughed at me when I suggested he run a Hoosier instead. So I think that’s a pretty telling hint ... I agree with rokkit 😱 ... If you are so worried about tires how about looking at tire mods for exceeding x width in each class. 

 

Lawrence Gibson 

Midatlantic GTS2/ST3

 

 

Originally the reason that the Slicks have a penalty over the R's was because the issue was to keep the cost down for racing since at the time slicks were only good for 2 or 3 heat cycles.  Now Slicks are going 10 or more heat cycles, so cost is not an issue there any more.

You are making the exact same argument that the original DOT vs Slick was that the A's do not last as long and cost a bunch more money.  Or else what, everyone running DOT's would choose A's over R's. 

Exactly the reason there should be a penalty for A's over R's.

Also, says you run ST4.  Isnt there a penalty for Autocross tires in ST4 ?

The mod for slicks in GTS4 is only .5. There's nothing left to give! I don't think there's any value in bothering with additional compound mods unless you have the desire to take into account width also. Bc a car on 315 R7's in GTS3/4 is still going to have more mechanical grip than one on 225 A7's. Yet this concept would give the car on 225's additional weight.

All I know in terms of same car same driver data so far in regards to slicks is that one of the TCR's ran the old Conti's (Supposedly the same compound as the DOT Hoosiers) one season, then switched to the Michelin slicks and said he dropped about 1.5 seconds bc of the tires. Even Hoosier suggests that their S75 etc will gain over 1 second on their DOT tire. Slicks are also more expensive than DOT Hoosiers no matter how you want to analyze it. I see Michelin's at 50-75% more than the cost of A7's. Making those tires the same ratio would be detrimental to the class. The negative perception alone from doing that should prevent that decision. And sure, used slicks are cheap. But you can't make a rule change based on the assumption that no one will buy new slicks. 

Going down the path of tire mods in GTS will get messy bc it's against the spirit of the original rules. But is it necessary at this point... Probably. So far this "issue" is really only showing up in NE. Midatlantic doesn't really have any issue in regards to anyone running 315's and gapping the field. Really no one at the front in MA is running A7's either. Unfortunately it seems that R1S's could get bunched in with A7's even though they aren't as fast and have more than double the longevity. Purely from a cost perspective A7 could probably be treated differently from R1S/R1/R7 since they are known to only be great for 2-3 cycles and cord around 10. Vs the other 3 where people get 8-10 good HC's and don't cord for 20+. 

So if there was support to debate and go down this path at here, here's 1 way to easily incorporate all the moving pieces

BFG R1/Hoosier R7/(Maybe BFG R1S) .2 bonus vs Hoosier A7 no bonus. 275mm and under .3 bonus. 225mm and under .5 bonus. Also a -0.5 for slicks across all classes. (In case you are wondering why I'd skip 245mm. The Hoosier 245 is only 12mm smaller than the 275. Not 30mm as the tire size would suggest.

 

So conceptually a 312whp GTS3 car would be as follows with GTS3 base at 10 to 1:

280+mm A7 (10 ratio)       3120lbs

275mm A7 (9.7 ratio)         3026lbs

275mm R7  (9.5 ratio)        2964lbs

225mm A7 (9.5 ratio)         2964lbs

225mm R7 (9.3 ratio)          2902lbs

280+mm slick (10.5 ratio)  3276lbs

275mm slick (10.2 ratio)    3182lbs

225mm slick (10)                3120lbs

 

*A .5 slick ratio for GTS1/2 likely isn't sufficient enough to be a deterrent. With such low power the weight penalty would be minimal and lead larger budget teams to chase optimizing on slicks. So maybe leave it at 1.0 for those classes?

Edited by daytonars4

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rokkit

I think the only people complaining about this rule are the people who have slicks. Why not just put an A on? Can't make it work? Well - how about figuring it out? I mean it sounds like a Cup Car problem to me. An R and A have the same set of "fast" heat cycles... Actually same as R1S in my experience. First 3 are quickest, drops a but for another 3 then it's about .4-.5 off depending on the conditions and track length... So I mean, new tires are always going to be quicker than used ones after a weekend or so... I'm confused what the goal is here. 

Regulating tire size is the more appropriate thing to do - then the cup car guys can compete with their slicks that are the same size are the A7s.

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Emag

This proposed A7/R7 rule will only make matters worse...

Those of us on the more technical side will change tires, power, and weight based on track.  IE; R7 at Watkins Glen and A7 at Thunderbolt.  Maybe it will help close the gap at tight tracks, but not by much.  

 

A tire size penalty similar to ST is more beneficial.  Also, if it's added power for smaller tires, it will help with the proposed 11:1 to 10:1 rule change.  (275 and under at 10.5:1, 285 and up 11:1).  Kill 2 complaints with one rule.  

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911.racer

Can I ask a question.

Is anyone other than Michael, who is currently involved in this conversation racing on A's.  And by this I mean the actual race, not qualifying.  If so, please raise your hand.

Thanks

Edited by 911.racer

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Emag

I got 3 qualifying sessions and 3 races out of my current set of A7, including a track record on the 4th heat cycle.  May race another weekend on them, don't know yet.  

 

I'm not saying A7's aren't great, I'm just saying that there are more obvious rules to alleviate the same issue ($ spent on tires I guess?). 

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rokkit

I run R1-S and have for years. So they class into this A category you speak of.

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wazgtsRacer

Been thinking about this for a bit and I will try to keep this short:  (I failed)

Bottom line I do support a tire size restrictions/mods.   I’m up in the air right now on the tire compound mod.

i support the tire size mod because perception equals reality.  Perceptions of needing to go wide body or add flares to be up front exists At least in GTS2,3.  Reality is fast guys/cars will be fast no matter what, and Even though a proper set up wide set up will most likely be faster, I don’t think it is as big a difference as people think.  

Why has ST4 taken off so well in some regions? Why were most of the front cars also eligible to race in GTS, but chose ST?  Perception of limited costs: limited tire, limited tire compound, limited areo, limited chassis development etc.  Reality, S54 swapped e36s, mk60 abs systems, built diffs, etc (all not cheap).  But the perception I do feel increases the field size.

i think adding a tire mod will make GTS2,3 more attractive.  For GTS2, I think the tires size should be any thing higher than a 245 would take a mod.  Reason being that is the biggest tire you can fit under stock e36 bodywork, probably the same for a boxster also but not sure.  Gts3, probably 275/285?  What’s the biggest tires a stock e46 or flared e36 fit?  Any P-cars running in gts3 that come from the factory with a 315 or something fat in the rear?  That could be a point of friction.  

As for tire compound, I ran the r1S in GTS2 exclusively... they last forever!  20+ HC.  First 10 for me were fast.  I ran all R7s this year in ST4.  I ran the A7 once in 2017, so don’t have the data. I can tell you that the R7 and the R1S have near identical lateral grip from looking at my data, and in my opinion last the same length of time in a long hot race.  If As truly are faster and only last 4-5 HC, I could see why a mod could be useful to limit perception of needing new tires each race... but I don’t have experience to make that determination.  

Now back to fixing my motor 🤪

Matt Wasilewski GTS2, ST/TT4

Edited by wazgtsRacer

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brant giere

Hoosier A's are on par with slicks. Either make them equivalent or allow us to run any tire we choose. 

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Haehntrain

Three cars that were running A7's at national's where 2-3 seconds faster than the rest of the group. More over the winner ran 2 seconds faster on his last lap. I will give them credit, they found a loophole in the rules and exploited it to their advantage. A7's along with the aero package the BMW's made that combo really hard to beat. Lucky, two of the top BMW's had incidents and were not in contention. With that said, A'7's need to be considered a slick and should be subject to the same weight penalty as us running slicks. 

Something also to really consider is establishing rules on aero. Rear diffusers and front splitters and such on the BMW's were ridiculous in comparison to the Cup cars. It would take a GT3R package to compete with that aero. This is just my opinion. 

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