2020 ST/TT Car Classification Rules Revisions Proposed

[Chase J.]

On 11/6/2019 at 5:02 PM, int2str said:

If I'm understanding this correctly:

This effectively kicks Hoosier's R7's or Hancook's our of the competition.
Given that Hoosier is a strong supporter of NASA and has a great contingency program, this seams a pretty direct shot at a great supporter of the club.

I get it that Toyo is the title sponsor, but by just changing the rules in their favour, there is no incentive for improved tire competition and no incentive for Toyo to make a better tire to compete...

Am I reading this wrong?
Very, very disappointing if this is true.

I’m with Greg on this 100% 

I would like to see a mod factor for those on 200TW tires. 
RE71R,RS4 ect. 

can there be a mod factor to add this is? I’m addition to the 100tw. 
This would certainly keep cost down for those who drive their car to/from the track. 
 

[cadmad]

The use of aftermarket electronic throttle controllers should be outlawed. These devices can change tunes with the push of any button you want to use or a newly installed button.The only reason to have one installed is to cheat. For example the Weapon-R I-Throttle Controller provides 16 different throttle settings that can be selected at the touch of a button. Nine of them increase throttle opening speed to tailor response to just the desired amount for performance driving and even racing. And when you’re just cruising and want to get better fuel mileage, there are 7 economy mode settings. The Remus Throttle Responder offers 4 adjustable settings.

[dwesterwick]

5 hours ago, cadmad said:

The use of aftermarket electronic throttle controllers should be outlawed. These devices can change tunes with the push of any button you want to use or a newly installed button.The only reason to have one installed is to cheat. For example the Weapon-R I-Throttle Controller provides 16 different throttle settings that can be selected at the touch of a button. Nine of them increase throttle opening speed to tailor response to just the desired amount for performance driving and even racing. And when you’re just cruising and want to get better fuel mileage, there are 7 economy mode settings. The Remus Throttle Responder offers 4 adjustable settings.

There are a lot of tuning solutions using the OEM ECU that can basically do the same thing. I could change power output with my OBD1 Civic by pushing the A/C button (don't worry; I didn't race it with NASA). Modern tuning solutions offer even more flexibility especially with DBW. Remember the VW scandal? You don't need an aftermarket device to cheat. I think the only way to police this is using competitor data/video and GPS enforcement like they did at nationals.

[Tansar_Motorsports]

19 hours ago, cadmad said:

The use of aftermarket electronic throttle controllers should be outlawed. These devices can change tunes with the push of any button you want to use or a newly installed button.The only reason to have one installed is to cheat. For example the Weapon-R I-Throttle Controller provides 16 different throttle settings that can be selected at the touch of a button. Nine of them increase throttle opening speed to tailor response to just the desired amount for performance driving and even racing. And when you’re just cruising and want to get better fuel mileage, there are 7 economy mode settings. The Remus Throttle Responder offers 4 adjustable settings.

An electronic throttle controller (or OEM DBW throttle) can be a great way to level out an otherwise peaky HP curve for small displacement NA cars.

As dwesterwick said, there are a million ways to cheat.  Electronic throttle, electronic boost controller, OBD2 programming, etc.

I can change power on my street GTI by 30 HP by pushing the cruise control button if I want.  A visual inspection of that car would look 100% OEM.

Logging and reviewing acceleration G forces is the only reliable way. But even this will only realistically be able to catch people who are cheating by a meaningful amount.  I don't know that there is any good way to catch someone trying to cheat by 5HP.

[esr]

On 11/6/2019 at 3:02 PM, int2str said:

If I'm understanding this correctly:

This effectively kicks Hoosier's R7's or Hancook's our of the competition.
Given that Hoosier is a strong supporter of NASA and has a great contingency program, this seams a pretty direct shot at a great supporter of the club.

I get it that Toyo is the title sponsor, but by just changing the rules in their favour, there is no incentive for improved tire competition and no incentive for Toyo to make a better tire to compete...

Am I reading this wrong?
Very, very disappointing if this is true.

 

On 11/4/2019 at 1:16 AM, Greg G. said:

Hi Folks,

It's that time of the year again, and despite the mantra by some regarding "rules creep", we have gotten hundreds of requests for rules revisions and changes for 2020 by our competitors.  In general, we would love to just slap a new year and revision number on the rules and call it a day, but without addressing issues found and reasonable requests made during the year, we would not be good stewards of the goal of increasing participation numbers.  With that being said, we have whittled down hundreds of requests to those that have made the "finals".   I will present them here for comments for one week.  Some of them, like the ST3 non-DOT tire Mod Factor revision already had a long discussion thread.  Others like the coilover conversion revision were polled in each region, and others you may not have heard about until now.   As usual, please be civil and reasoned in your comments, and none of these are official rules until posted as such.  Also, for simplicity, I'm going to just post the generic change here, instead of the actual revised wording in the rules, and any reference to an ST class applies to the same TT class.   But, if there are questions that would pertain to the revised wording, feel free to ask.

1a) Leaf spring/Torsion bar to coilover spring conversion is permitted in ST4 without a Mod Factor
1b) Leaf spring/Torsion bar to coilover spring conversion is permitted in ST5 & ST6 with a -0.5 Mod Factor assessment

2) FWD Mod Factor is decreased from +1.0 down to +0.5 for factory build non-Production race cars in ST1/2/3.

3) In ST4, vehicles with a Minimum Competition Weight greater than 3000 lbs (decreased from 3100 lbs) may have a NASA Section Width tire up to 282mm.

4) In ST3, the non-DOT tire Mod Factor increases from -0.5 to -0.8.

5) In ST1/2/3, the non-DOT tire size Mod Factor of +0.3 shall apply to tires marked as large as 10.5", 270mm, or 27cm by the tire manufacturer.  (This is an increase from 10.5"/267mm).

6) The non-DOT tire exception for Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge EC-Dry and EC-Wet tires will expire on 12-31-20.  (use them up)

7) The Toyo RR will be added to the line: "Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater +0.5"
So, this one would be: "Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater or Toyo RR +0.5"

8.) Change to ST3 & ST4 Transmission Mod Factors:

ST3 & ST4: OEM street-legal model available paddle shift, DCT/SMG/DSG/PDK, Dog-ring/straight-cut gears, or sequential motorcycle gearbox  = -0.5

ST3 & ST4: All other sequential/semi-automatic  = -1.0

(This is an increase from -0.3 to -0.5 for the first group, except for the Dog-ring/straight-cut gears that decrease from -0.6 to -0.5.   And, the reference to automatic transmissions utilizing a torque converter is deleted)

9) ST5 & 6: In regard to transmissions, Delete reference:  "(All classes—no assessment for automatic utilizing torque converter)"  This is no longer appropriate with new technology.

10) In ST4/5/6, in regard to convertibles with hardtops, there must be a sealed rear window regardless of whether the top is compliant with BTM Aero or is aftermarket. 

11) ST1/2/3 Mod Factor for Production Car approval for Panoz GTRA and GTWC increased to -0.3 (from -0.2)

12) Add new class to Time Trial: TTEV (Time Trial Electric Vehicle)--Open class for Tesla Model 3, Tesla Model S, Porsche Taycan, and others as added, using HPDE technical inspection--with no modifications permitted to the factory motor, batteries, or EV related safety features.  For 2020, no current ST classing for electric vehicles other than SU with required approval in writing from NASA National for each individual entry.

 

 

 

 

I would like to switch to RR as I hear great things about them from guys in Utah running them up to 3 weekends. I am not too concerned about contingency prices as I don’t plan on winning races next year.

i would only say that would rather see the r7 get minus 0.5 instead of the 100tw getting plus 0.5

lets not make the engines and our wallets work any harder.

[Davidss]

I would love to see the TTEV class have a 200tw or 100tw tire limit.

[jldefanti]

On 11/11/2019 at 8:10 AM, esr said:

 

I would like to switch to RR as I hear great things about them from guys in Utah running them up to 3 weekends. I am not too concerned about contingency prices as I don’t plan on winning races next year.

i would only say that would rather see the r7 get minus 0.5 instead of the 100tw getting plus 0.5

lets not make the engines and our wallets work any harder.

I agree with ESR. This seems like a thinly veiled attempt by NASA to force us to use Toyos, their biggest corporate sponsor. BTW the tw of the RR is 40, quite far from 100. As for the presumed cost savings, the difference between a R7 245/18 and a RR 255/18 is $292 per set. x5 is $1500 per season (assuming we win a couple). We will spend much more than that retuning the cars.

[jldefanti]

On 11/9/2019 at 4:33 AM, Marco8 said:

Agree with David, or increase tolerance (5% currently) to 45% and limit height to 4”.

Agree with David and Marco. 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 4:33 AM, Marco8 said:

Agree with David, or increase tolerance (5% currently) to 45% and limit height to 4”.

 

[Balroks]

On 11/11/2019 at 11:10 AM, esr said:

 

I would like to switch to RR as I hear great things about them from guys in Utah running them up to 3 weekends. I am not too concerned about contingency prices as I don’t plan on winning races next year.

i would only say that would rather see the r7 get minus 0.5 instead of the 100tw getting plus 0.5

lets not make the engines and our wallets work any harder.

But as others have said, it's a poke to give Toyo more business because they can't make a bett(er) tire.  The same stock could be given to a half dozen other tires in the same lap time range but I don't see those mentioned, likely because they're already 100tw without the need to make the compound softer.  I'm sure if we made it a "spec" tire for all ST classes we'd somehow find a way of getting it close but even then.  The only fair play here is to swing the same in both directions.  If you're going to make Non-DOT a -0.8, then you'll need to make 100tw AND RR a +.08.  I think Greg knows at this point the lap times and "usage" warrant it if you want to see it succeed.

[codename Bil Doe]

We have tested multiple brands and compounds (5 manufacturers, 6+ compounds/types) across last two seasons.

This includes same day event tests of up to 3 compounds on two similar cars including tire temps and durometer measurements cold and hot across multiple heat cycles from sticker condition.

A tire isn't faster strictly because of its durometer. It's a combination of durometer, composition, sidewall stiffness, contact patch, and (for advanced street tires) tread pattern.

The hot durometer of the RR, R1, Z214, and R7 are for all intent and purposes the same on a Shore A scale.

You cannot differentiate a faster tire strictly by how soft it is.

[cadmad]

Out numbered front wheel drive guys unjustly get hit hard again! maybe that's why there are so few of us out there. It's mathematical fact that a front wheel drive car with the same horse power as a rear wheel drive car makes about 3% less headway. Just because ONE FWD car romps a field doesn't mean that the reason why is because it's front wheel drive. Look at all the fastest lap times of front wheel drive cars VS rear wheel drive cars around the country and then calculate the fairness of the modification factor. TCR cars are not production cars! my FWD ST5 car with a raw power to weight ratio of 13.7:1 gets eaten alive in drag races against RWD cars with a raw power to weight ratio of 14.6:1

https://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php

 

[Balroks]

Read the rest, the FWD for YOUR car will still be good for 1.0, this is 0.5 just for factory race cars that have millions spent making up for that difference. 

[Greg G.]

After input from competitors and officials, we ended up deciding on going a bit differently on the FWD non-Production Factory Race Car Mod Factor revision with a gradation from ST1 to ST3, with a little less bump in the non-DOT tire factor in ST3:

Non-DOT approved tires (ST1, ST2 Only) = -0.5  (no change)
Non-DOT tire (ST3 only) =-0.7

ST1: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.8
ST2: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.5
ST3: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.2
ST1, ST2, & ST3: FWD (all other) = +1.0

Also this slight change from proposed:

Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater or Toyo RR = +0.6

The rules are undergoing final approval currently.

[esr]

8 minutes ago, Greg G. said:

After input from competitors and officials, we ended up deciding on going a bit differently on the FWD non-Production Factory Race Car Mod Factor revision with a gradation from ST1 to ST3, with a little less bump in the non-DOT tire factor in ST3:

Non-DOT approved tires (ST1, ST2 Only) = -0.5  (no change)
Non-DOT tire (ST3 only) =-0.7

ST1: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.8
ST2: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.5
ST3: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.2
ST1, ST2, & ST3: FWD (all other) = +1.0

Also this slight change from proposed:

Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater or Toyo RR = +0.6

The rules are undergoing final approval currently.

How about split the difference for ST 1-4 get rid off the +0.3 for DOT tires, then the 100tw will end up only + 0.3 from current figures.

or at least reward the rule about +0.3 for dot tires in ST 4-6, a non DOT is not allowed so why the bonus.

lets meet in the middle, some of us can’t get another +0.6 out of our engines to switch to 100tw.

 

[cadmad]

22 hours ago, Balroks said:

Read the rest, the FWD for YOUR car will still be good for 1.0, this is 0.5 just for factory race cars that have millions spent making up for that difference. 

Point is the lower the HP the higher the percentage difference. So why are ST5/6 FWD cars only +0.6 and ST4-1 +1.0?

[cadmad]

How about a credit for cars running tires narrower than permitted by weight? Some of us can't physically fit without taking a penalty for track width.

[djqd36]

On 11/23/2019 at 3:42 PM, Greg G. said:

Also this slight change from proposed:

Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater or Toyo RR = +0.6

 

I’m not arguing that the Hoosier doesn’t have a pace advantage over the Toyo, but how is 0.6 being determined? What’s the math? It depends on the car/class but I’m calculating this as being equivalent to +160lbs extra to run a Hoosier. Yikes.

This seems like a very big change considering these tires have been considered “equal” for quite some time. If I remember correctly, these were equivalent even in the PT rules. What’s driving the change now?

[jldefanti]

On 11/23/2019 at 2:42 PM, Greg G. said:

After input from competitors and officials, we ended up deciding on going a bit differently on the FWD non-Production Factory Race Car Mod Factor revision with a gradation from ST1 to ST3, with a little less bump in the non-DOT tire factor in ST3:

Non-DOT approved tires (ST1, ST2 Only) = -0.5  (no change)
Non-DOT tire (ST3 only) =-0.7

ST1: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.8
ST2: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.5
ST3: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.2
ST1, ST2, & ST3: FWD (all other) = +1.0

Also this slight change from proposed:

Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater or Toyo RR = +0.6

The rules are undergoing final approval currently.

So you're doubling down on the Toyo. +0.5 wasn't enough?

[djqd36]

Correction:

Previous Performance Touring Tire Rules -

R7 = 10pts

RR = 7pts

100TW = 2pts

That seems like a more fair spread than a blanket +0.6 for RR's and 100TW.  A whole aero package is only +0.4 in ST4...

[Davidss]

I wanted to add one more suggestion for the TTEV class. It would be nice if there was a modifier for BTM aero and non-metallic bushings.

[Chase J.]

Hi Greg, 

What about allowing the use of Fender vents/louvers in ST4/TT4 as long as they comply with the same height as the hood louvers? 

[rherold9]

For the Conti tire exemption being removed after next season. Could the wet tires be extended? Since those could inherently have been bought in the tire sale this past year and may not have been used if there wasn't a 'rain session'. I know 3 people in mid-atlantic bought some for TT/ST and haven't really used them.

 

Not sure if we are the only ones though

Edited November 28, 2019 by rherold9

[cadmad]

On 11/23/2019 at 5:42 PM, Greg G. said:

After input from competitors and officials, we ended up deciding on going a bit differently on the FWD non-Production Factory Race Car Mod Factor revision with a gradation from ST1 to ST3, with a little less bump in the non-DOT tire factor in ST3:

Non-DOT approved tires (ST1, ST2 Only) = -0.5  (no change)
Non-DOT tire (ST3 only) =-0.7

ST1: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.8
ST2: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.5
ST3: FWD (non-Production Factory Built Race Car) =+0.2
ST1, ST2, & ST3: FWD (all other) = +1.0

Also this slight change from proposed:

Tires with a UTQG Treadwear rating 100 or greater or Toyo RR = +0.6

The rules are undergoing final approval currently.

Does all other include ST-4?

[Greg G.]

1 hour ago, cadmad said:

Does all other include ST-4?

No ST4 remains unchanged at +0.6.  The reason for the higher Mod Factor for the lower Wt/HP classes is that the negative effects of FWD get amplified as power level increases.  (But the effects can be mitigated by having multi-million dollar R&D budgets to get the power to the ground while not destroying tires in the process).  

[Greg G.]

On 11/26/2019 at 6:53 AM, Chase J. said:

Hi Greg, 

What about allowing the use of Fender vents/louvers in ST4/TT4 as long as they comply with the same height as the hood louvers? 

...not opening that can of worms.