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2006 TT RULES published 1-5-06


Greg G.

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There here....yes a "Poltergeist" reference.

 

Our 2006 NASA Time Trial National Rules are now approved, and will be posted on the nasaproracing.com website tonight. They are posted now on the SoCal website, and you can download them now via this link:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf The TT calculator program on the main NASA site will be shut down until it gets updated (may take a while, it's not a simple cut and paste deal). TT Car Classification forms and license application forms are not ready to be released yet, but everything you need to know is in the rules.

 

You will immediately notice that they are much longer than the previous rules (23 pages total), and that everything is covered in much greater detail, with definitions that would be difficult to misinterpret. Many of your cars moved up in base class by an asterix or more (especially the cars that were in G or H), and there are more modification points to be had (there are now over 100 different items to review to calculate mod points, but it still does not take more than 15 minutes to figure out your class). Asterix handicaps are now valued at +7 and +15 points. And it takes 20 modification points to jump up to the next class. TT licenses will be required after your first weekend of competition. Frequent TT drivers now have the option of using a car tech procedure very similar to that of the racers, with a logbook and annual inspection by NASA with spot checks for compliance. Any driver choosing to use this option must be very careful to fully comply with the procedures, or risk monetary fines (and worse). But, for those of you that are currently having to tow your car to a tech station a few days before an event, or those of you that seem to run out of time every Saturday morning trying to get your car tech'd, this will save you a lot of trouble.

 

There is alot more, but I'll let you just start reading for now. These rules are "THE RULES", so although it might be amusing for some of you to see others whining about this or that, I suggest that we keep in mind that the rules are not going to change at this point. Positive comments, accolades, and praise are always welcome, though In fact, my hope is that next year, you will be able to know what class you can compete in during the 2007 season before the 2006 ends. At this time, we are not planning on any big changes for next year, just update the base classes for new cars, and fix any glaring problems with base classifications. I'm sure that most of us will appreciate having a stable ruleset that can take us forward, without having to think that every year we'll need to change classes.

 

So enjoy (or not)......whatever

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Greg,

 

I applaud your efforts. I'll still give you my feedback (for better or worse), but wow, what an animal. I'm wading through it now.

 

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Greg,

 

I see that we can choose to use an alternative weighing method where we don't accrue points if the car weighs 100 lbs or less than the OEM curb weight. I think that's cool. Do you have a table of OEM weights you're using, so we know what we're starting at?

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Greg,

 

I see that we can choose to use an alternative weighing method where we don't accrue points if the car weighs 100 lbs or less than the OEM curb weight. I think that's cool. Do you have a table of OEM weights you're using, so we know what we're starting at?

Dan, remember that curb weight is with a vehicle filled with all fluids and gas, but "minimum weight" is with the fuel tank nearly empty (or at the lowest level that you will ever drive it with on the track). So, the 100 pounds is mostly for the difference in weight for fuel. However, you now can see that cages and roll bars are more than just "free". They can actually be worth savings on weight reduction points now.

 

Each driver should know or find out the official curb weight of his/her vehicle, since there are some differences between weights of vehicles depending on which year it is. Our base classes were adjusted to take this into account, so that you should use the actual curb weight of your specific model year. I have back up numbers if needed, and we can always look them up if there is a discrepancy.

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Greg,

 

That all makes sense. The best number I can find for my car is here:

 

http://www.se-r.net/about/nx2000/93_NX2000_stats.html

 

I verified that number elsewhere for a 1991 car. Looks like 2,461 lbs. When I weighed my car last it was 2,500 with half a tank of gas due to items I added it seems. Yes, it's cool that cages now are more than free when you use the alternate weight assessment system. It also allows me to remove the rear seat (18 lbs, btw) and not really worry about points.

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Yep, that's the same number I have in my database.

 

Great, glad we have matching numbers. Makes the math more exact.

 

So to summarize, at our minimum weight with an almost empty gas tank, we can be 100 lbs less than the published curb weight without taking any points for the various weight reduction mods, right?

 

You are correct, Dan--Greg

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Looks good!

 

Curious what does a TT shootout usually look like?

 

This session is only for TTers, not HPDE4 guys. You pregrid in the order of your best time during the previous sessions of the day. This session nets the best times of the entire day for many of us. Sound about right, Greg?

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Good job Greg.

 

You did put a lot of effort into. They look great. I like the alternative weight method. That makes a lot of sense.

 

Keep up the good work!!!

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Looks good!

 

Curious what does a TT shootout usually look like?

 

We do a pre-grid based on the days best times in the prior sessions. Since it is usually the last run session of the day, there is some attrition of drivers. So, that combined with not allowing HPDE4 drivers or instructors that are not competing in TT to drive in the Shootout, usually allows the group to be cut in size by 25-50%. We send the cars out of pre-grid with only a second or so between them, and have the drivers go hot by the third turn (and quick before that, but maintain space). This procedure will usually get 95% of the drivers at least 3-4 hot laps with wide open track before the fastest drivers start lapping the slowest drivers. Historically in SoCal, we have had about 50% of our best TT times during TT Shootouts (and probably more than 50% of our track records). We will try to use this format at NASA Nationals for as many sessions as possible.

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scirocco GTI is in F......

but Scirocco 1.5-1.6-1.8 is in G......

then Scirocco 1.3-1.5-1.6 is in H.....

so where does the 1.7 fit in?

 

BTW, Scirocco GTi is Euro only, never sold in the USA.

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scirocco GTI is in F......

but Scirocco 1.5-1.6-1.8 is in G......

then Scirocco 1.3-1.5-1.6 is in H.....

so where does the 1.7 fit in?

 

BTW, Scirocco GTi is Euro only, never sold in the USA.

I never found the data for the 1.7 Scirroco (I spelled it that way just for you BTW). And, I can't understand why there isn't abundant information on such a fine, old piece of.........................precision German engineering . If it's the same or similar output to the 1.7L Jetta (which I guess it is, at an impressive 74hp), then it would be a TTH. However, we both know that you are just causing trouble because I get to "evaluate" (hehehe) your car for the 2.0 engine swap anyway, so the 1.7 classification has nothing to do with anything.

 

** for those of you who don't know, Shawn is my USTCC crew chief, so I'm allowed to be nasty to him.

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Fantastic job Greg!

 

I am still wading through, but had a couple of questions/clarifications:

1. Curb weight for the Acura Integra GS-R: I have found numbers ranging from 2539 lbs to 2672 lbs. 2667 lbs seems to be the most commonly referenced weight and when I last weighed the car it was 2670 lbs. Does this jive with your numbers? Also, when I take out the mats, spare tire, and jack (as required), and use up a half tank of gas, I drop almost a 100 lbs...that really bites in terms of the alternate approach for calculating weight penalties.

2. The trunk carpet is attached to the back seat on the Integra; do I get penalized the extra 1 pt. for the trunk if I remove the back seat?

3. I assume that if I replace the OE front strut tower bar with an aftermarket one, I am penalized 1 pt, correct?

4. I am still struggling with the rationale behind penalizing stock-sized rotors the same as Big Brake Kits. Regardless, please help me understand the OEM definition with respect to rotors: I currently buy aftermarket rotors that are the OEM size and shape (not slotted, dimpled, cross-drilled, cryo-treated, gold-plated, or blessed) because they are cheaper. Is it safe to assume that I will not be penalized?

 

Once again, good job on the rules. Looking forward to seeing everyone out there again soon.

 

mark.

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Yep, that's the same number I have in my database.

 

Rather than everyone ask separately, can you publish the curb weight of those cars that are in your database?

 

Otherwise, what weight do you show for a Neon SOHC? How about the Shelby Lancer?

 

So I know, is the published curb weight with or without A/C. Since some cars in a given model line never had A/C, including it in the base curb weight could allow two otherwise identical cars to run with the same number of points even though one is 50+ pounds heavier.

 

Although it is obvious that a lot of work went into this revamp of the rules, the complexity may actually scare a few people away.

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I never found the data for the 1.7 Scirroco (I spelled it that way just for you BTW). And, I can't understand why there isn't abundant information on such a fine, old piece of.........................precision German engineering . If it's the same or similar output to the 1.7L Jetta (which I guess it is, at an impressive 74hp), then it would be a TTH*. However, we both know that you are just causing trouble because I get to "evaluate" (hehehe) your car for the 2.0 engine swap anyway, so the 1.7 classification has nothing to do with anything.

 

** for those of you who don't know, Shawn is my USTCC crew chief, so I'm allowed to be nasty to him.

 

 

Well, I dont know where you get your database from, but it is highly inaccurate. There were NEVER a 1.3L Scirocco, or 1.4L. Shall I get you the correct information so at least those considering running TT with a VW can at least know where to start, before your new rules completely scare them off to the SCCA?? Huh, honeybuns??

The 1.6L made more power than the 1.7L. Yeah VW! Least I never betrayed Ford.....

 

**He might be nasty to me in front of you all, but behind closed doors he is as gentle as a kitten.

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Fantastic job Greg!

 

I am still wading through, but had a couple of questions/clarifications:

1. Curb weight for the Acura Integra GS-R: I have found numbers ranging from 2539 lbs to 2672 lbs. 2667 lbs seems to be the most commonly referenced weight and when I last weighed the car it was 2670 lbs. Does this jive with your numbers? Also, when I take out the mats, spare tire, and jack (as required), and use up a half tank of gas, I drop almost a 100 lbs...that really bites in terms of the alternate approach for calculating weight penalties.

2. The trunk carpet is attached to the back seat on the Integra; do I get penalized the extra 1 pt. for the trunk if I remove the back seat?

3. I assume that if I replace the OE front strut tower bar with an aftermarket one, I am penalized 1 pt, correct?

4. I am still struggling with the rationale behind penalizing stock-sized rotors the same as Big Brake Kits. Regardless, please help me understand the OEM definition with respect to rotors: I currently buy aftermarket rotors that are the OEM size and shape (not slotted, dimpled, cross-drilled, cryo-treated, gold-plated, or blessed) because they are cheaper. Is it safe to assume that I will not be penalized?

 

Once again, good job on the rules. Looking forward to seeing everyone out there again soon.

mark.

1) You are spot on with the curb weight. We used 2667 to class the car. If you put a cage or a roll bar in the car, though, you will get some free weight reduction to help you choose to be safer. You've got to like that aspect.

2) A sharp utility knife will fix your problem I would have to look at it to see how we'll deal with it. I imagine that the trunk carpet weighs less than 15 pounds in your car?

3) The rule says "add front strut tower bar +1", so I won't assess you if you change it. (But if we had 1/2 points I would )

4) Sounds like you have "generic replacement parts" that would fall under the OEM definition in 6.4. So, you are good to go with no points on the Pet Boy rotor special. But, if Aaron blesses them, we might have to charge you the point for having specialty parts.

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Greg,

Wow!

My eye's hurt from reading all this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but did I read that if you run NON-DOT tires you are automatically in TTU or TTR?

If this is correct!

Am I stuck in TTU or TTR unless I change to a custom offset wheel (17" or 18")and R-compound tire?

I guess I could run street tires but where is the fun in that?

Later!

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Greg-

 

It looks like I'm pretty solidly within TTC, but just for my own benefit. . .

 

1. Is the Mopar Stage II package considered a "Performance chip/non-reprogrammable reflash" with +4 points?

 

2. I have the exact same Wilwood/TCE brakes as you, the 13.0" x 1.10" with FSL calipers. According to the new rules, that seems to be only +3 points, right? With one point each going for "non-OEM pads, rotors and caliper." Is that correct?

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff Mikusky

'04 Dodge SRT-4

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Well, I dont know where you get your database from, but it is highly inaccurate. There were NEVER a 1.3L Scirocco, or 1.4L. Shall I get you the correct information so at least those considering running TT with a VW can at least know where to start, before your new rules completely scare them off to the SCCA?? Huh, honeybuns??

The 1.6L made more power than the 1.7L. Yeah VW! Least I never betrayed Ford.....

Now I know you are screwing with me, because nowhere in the NASA rules does it say anything about a mythical 1.4L Sceerocko. Now, read this and weep:

The Volkswagen Scirocco debuted in 1974 to replace the Karmann Ghia. It was introduced to North America in 1975. Designated internally by Volkswagen as the Type 53, the Scirocco retained its initial body style until 1981. 1982 featured a dramatic restyling of the Scirocco (Type 53B or MkII) with rounded body style, though it featured the same A1 chassis (shared with the VW Rabbit/Golf and the first-generation VW Jetta). The Scirocco's emphasis was sporting luxury, and options included a leather interior, power windows, side view mirrors, air conditioning, sunroof, and other amenities. Engines in the Mk I models ranged from 1.1 L to 1.8 L inline four-cylinder 8-valve designs, while the Mk II had 1.3 to 1.8 L 8-valve engines and the later Scirocco 16v had a 1.8 L 16-valve engine with enhanced performance. European models were not available with the 1.7 L engine, but with a 1.6 L engine. A mid-cycle redesign occurred in 1984, with few outward body changes; the more significant changes were from a full-size spare tire to a space-saver tire with an accompanying increase in size of the previously 10.5 gallon fuel tank, and a change to a larger rear spoiler. Sale of the Mk II Sciroccos continued until 1988 in the United States, 1989 in Canada, and 1992 in Germany. The Scirocco was replaced by the Volkswagen Corrado.

I've got magical data on the non-existant 1.3L that says that it weighed 1830 lbs, and had a whopping 60 hp. Now, I suppose it may have only been a European model--couldn't find out really, but it was produced. And you would have probably asked me why I left it out if it wasn't there. As far as I can tell, the other VW info is still correct. I would be happy to look at anything you send me, though. I think I only researched about five to six thousand specific cars, so I'm sure there will be some areas where the data I obtained wasn't pure. And please quit telling our secrets to everyone.

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Rather than everyone ask separately, can you publish the curb weight of those cars that are in your database?

Otherwise, what weight do you show for a Neon SOHC? How about the Shelby Lancer?

So I know, is the published curb weight with or without A/C. Since some cars in a given model line never had A/C, including it in the base curb weight could allow two otherwise identical cars to run with the same number of points even though one is 50+ pounds heavier.

Although it is obvious that a lot of work went into this revamp of the rules, the complexity may actually scare a few people away.

 

Sorry Dave (reference--2001: A Space Odyssey--you gotta love Hal. That's my second old movie reference of the day, I need to get some sleep ) I'm not going to post any of my databases. There is just way too much work put into those to put them out there. Also, the way I would like to work it is for each driver to list there curb weight on their classification sheet. If they are not going to use or look into using the alternate method of calculating weight reduction points, then fine, leave it blank. Otherwise, a driver can learn a little about their own car if they don't already know the answer. Then, once I have the classification sheets, I will cross-reference them to the database to ensure there isn't a problem that needs to be researched further. Now, if I go and tell you (well, not you, but someone else that isn't quite as upstanding as you) what number I have for them, and it turns out that the number is low, I imagine there would be a small percentage of guys that would "forget" to tell me that they think their OEM curb weight is much higher than the number I have. So, there is no reason to entice anybody into making that error.

 

The curb weights are the ones published by the manufacturers and then spread around the world since then. So, I imagine that all cars that had standard AC have it included, and cars without standard AC don't have it included. We can work that out later if we find a specific issue with a car.

 

We haven't scared you away yet, Dave I'd say that for every scaredy-cat that runs away, there will be two or three new competitors that see this as the answer to all of the thoughtless, non-sensical classifications made by others.

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Greg,

Wow!

My eye's hurt from reading all this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but did I read that if you run NON-DOT tires you are automatically in TTU or TTR?

If this is correct!

Am I stuck in TTU or TTR unless I change to a custom offset wheel (17" or 18")and R-compound tire?

I guess I could run street tires but where is the fun in that?

Later!

Yes, my friend. Your eyes are not deceiving you. You would be stuck in TTU with your car. I can assure you that we (5 of us) had long debates about the merits and downside of this rule. In the end, the guys with the most power (not me) won the debate, but, I have seen the light , and agree that it was the right thing to do. With the National competition coming, if we had continued to allow slicks in the lower (and less costly classes), we would have run into a real money race for speed. Crazy nutcases (like me, probably), would have seen the benefit of slicks, and ignored the cost factor. It would have come to a point where if you didn't have slicks, that you couldn't win. The alternative would have been to make them so costly points-wise that one would either end up in TTU (you for example) anyway, or they wouldn't be worth it to get them. I'm glad that I no longer have to consider spending over $250-$300 each for tires that will "last" for only one or two sessions. Many of the guys that run in TTU or TTR can afford this, and an unlimited class would be the appropriate place for these high dollar mods. I've seen 275's (DOT slick-type) for 15 and 16 inch wheels. Why not just go with them? You might need those extra points to stay in TTA anyway--no?

 

Also, I was expecting a dry sump question from you (+20 ). This rule also came down from the heavens because of the very huge gains that can be obtained by: lowering the engine to within a few inches from the ground and lowering the roll center of the car, putting the oil tank in the perfect location to help balance the car, increasing engine performance, and allowing an engine builder to go wild with power and not worry about "kaboom". So, the big number of points will discourage their use except in the unlimited classes. But, they are not illegal

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Greg-

It looks like I'm pretty solidly within TTC, but just for my own benefit. . .

1. Is the Mopar Stage II package considered a "Performance chip/non-reprogrammable reflash" with +4 points?

2. I have the exact same Wilwood/TCE brakes as you, the 13.0" x 1.10" with FSL calipers. According to the new rules, that seems to be only +3 points, right? With one point each going for "non-OEM pads, rotors and caliper." Is that correct?

Thanks!

Jeff Mikusky

'04 Dodge SRT-4

1. Yes--reflash +4. Also wastegate +2, injectors+2, sensors +2, (EDITED), catback exhaust +1 (or more for full exhaust).

2. Yes--but don't gloat about it--Mark may be watching

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Ok, so the whole Stage II setup is +4 for the PCM, +2 for injectors, +2 for sensors, and +2 for the wastegate actuator for a total of +10, huh? What about the "toys" parts? I don't have to consider the dial-a-boost as a manual boost controller, do I?

 

I promise not to gloat about the new brakes. . .mostly because they squeal loud enough to wake the dead!

 

-Jeff

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