944 spec at CALIFORNIA SPEEDWAY March 11-12!

[Tim Comeau]

Chris, who doesn't own a 944 yet, was nice enough to host/post this Fontana race video to a site. I sent him a CD. It's of me in the Zebra car last March and is about 34 minutes long. With the straight pipe, you can hear the throttle really well. Good for the new guys to learn the track.

 

 

http://brooksbabies.com/chris/2005-March-NASA-Fontana-Sunday-race.wmv

[Tom #16]

I'll be there also.

[944-Spec#94]

With the straight pipe, you can hear the throttle really well.

 

Hmm straight pipe ehh?

 

I will be bringing my straight pipe too. So with any luck on friday I will be able to run a straight pipe vs stock muffler back to back test.

[944-Spec#94]

Ok

Reservations confirmed at the Best Western on 209 Vineyard Ave, Ontraio CA.

 

I will be there Thursday - Sat Nights.

 

 

I plan on leaving Phx Thursday Afterwork

[944-Spec#94]

Update,

 

Also Attending

Vince Vaccaro

Glenn Glormely

Norm Hamden

 

They should be arriving friday during the day.

 

 

Tim any chance we can save some spaces for the 944 guys? I will be at the the track bright and early Friday AM.

[Tim Comeau]

Heck yes, I can save spots for 944's!

[Tim Comeau]

Foley's in!

Darren Griffith from the AZ group is on the fence.......push him over, you guys!

 

Sean Steele will rent his car out for $500. It's in San Diego. He has a wedding to go to. Not his!

[PeanutinCA]

Foley's in!

Darren Griffith from the AZ group is on the fence.......push him over, you guys!

 

Sean Steele will rent his car out for $500. It's in San Diego. He has a wedding to go to. Not his!

 

What does the $500 include? Might be cheaper than getting my car sorted?

 

P.D.

[Tim Comeau]

No!

I don't want to swap a car with an already entered driver. I want an additional car entered............

Get your car sorted, Dilly. You'll be happier.

I'm trying to find a renter for Russ McKee's car as well. That's Marguglio's old car.

Numbers...I want numbers.

[PeanutinCA]

But if I don't have time to sort my car, then it's less likely I would go. And at this point, I have no time for testing. So, it would be a one shot to get it right Friday? If I didn't get it right.... well, you get the picture. I can't run the car with no sway bars, I killed 2 of the 4 new tires are 3 days. Down to bald from the car rolling up so much.

 

P.D.

[944-Spec#94]

But if I don't have time to sort my car, then it's less likely I would go. And at this point, I have no time for testing. So, it would be a one shot to get it right Friday? If I didn't get it right.... well, you get the picture. I can't run the car with no sway bars, I killed 2 of the 4 new tires are 3 days. Down to bald from the car rolling up so much.

 

P.D.

 

Dilly what is wrong with the car?

 

Is you suspension f-ed up?

 

Really it should not be that hard to fix. Go with a baseline set-up and then tweak the bars on Friday. Really that would be better than a rental car where the settings are not right for you either and also the basic chassis is different. Did I tell you it took me 3 track days to get comforable with sitting in the car without a seat pad? Yep that tiny change took time to get right. To be really fast you need to at "one" with the car. Can't do that in some elses's car. You can have fun, but can't be "at one" with it. I would rather mess with mine than deal with some else's car.

 

Does the car not run or is unsafe and needs to be repaired?

[Packfill]

Dillys car is fine... This is just his, "put one excuse in the bank, JUST IN CASE I dont win both races and the time trial" routine...

 

If you look back, he really does do this every time.....

[Tim Comeau]

Now that I think about it.......last time he said he couldn't make Willow, then showed up with that U-Haul dolly rig...Hmmm

 

Dill-in-a-tor, just show up on Friday with the welts on and we'll get it working for you. Maybe Joe or I can drive your car?

[PeanutinCA]

Dillys car is fine... This is just his, "put one excuse in the bank, JUST IN CASE I dont win both races and the time trial" routine...

 

If you look back, he really does do this every time.....

 

Man, that's funny! Hmmm, I just did a search, couldn't find those posts? Ahh, must have deleted them?

 

And as for last Willow, yeah, I wasn't sure I was going to make it for some reason, but not car related? The handling issues with my car (or my driving style), have been nothing but minor (minor push) for a long time. I don't recall ever saying my car handled badly? Remember discussing other possible setups, softer for short tracks. Remember sharing with the crowd I found speed by stiffening the rear at Big Willow? Which is opposite of the suggestions/discussion with Tim.

 

Anyhow.... Mr. Joe, there isn't any "issue" with the car as such, nothings going to break. It's that I made wholesale changes to the suspension for my curiosity. For myself, the changes didn't work as it had apparently for others? Driving style? Not sure. Anyways, I went to Vegas, which cost me more on a couple fronts than expected. Long story. So, I spent more than anticipated there. Plus, started the year not anticipating to 'compete' at anything specific. Was just going to arrive and drive when and where I felt compelled. With all that aside, the discussion above.... I had very little intention of renting someone else's car, but if it had been $500 for the 3 day weekend with new tires, you could hardly pass it up! That's why I asked. As for my car, as mentioned, wholesale changes to the suspension. I don't think 'race' weekends are the time for testing. I had 3 days in Vegas without resolution. It was some damn expensive testing when you consider entry, travel, running costs and 2 new tires turned half bald tires (as in bald on the outside). Last thing I want to do is do that again. And, to be long winded, having hurt my lower back for the 2nd time in a month, I'm really not interested in wrenching, loading, unloading, etc. etc. all that stuff that is involved in testing. I offered my car to a couple friend to go out and test, just to avoid it. No motivation, actually that's not true. Just, didn't have the intention in general. Got some other priorities going right now. Jim just had some interesting thoughts on setup, which are simple, cost not too much. BUT, if it doesn't work, I'm back to square one. And, for myself, having said I wasn't running too much financially this year, I'd be doing the same thing. Maybe I will do Friday? Cheap testing. And hey, others are welcome to drive my car as hard as they like. Of course you break it you own it. But, go for it. I'm not so proud I can't see someone kick my a$$ in my own car. It would shut up the critics wouldn't it! So, as the time nears, I will play it by ear. oh fyi, I started back at my old job, have already missed 1 1/2 days from being sick, have done short days the last 2 with hurting my back and am on a project with a new manager I haven't worked for before. It's a little tough to say I'm out again. Blah blah blah.

 

Does anyone know what the running schedule would be for Friday? Run sessions or open track?

 

P.D.

 

p.s. If I turn up and sessions allow, I might like to put Jimmy and Timmy in the car. Would be interesting huh?

[Tim Comeau]

I'd jump in it just to help assess it and suggest changes. We've got to get it in the ballpark before we start optimizing it.

Let's get a head start on this forum because we all want to see you there competing. You're wearing the front tires out on the outside?

 

Post your:

springs, torsions, sway bars at Vegas- not now, Bilstein AK Firehawk units, right? Compression/rebound rates?

Camber?

Toe ?

Pressures?

Rake (front to rear angle)?

Corner weights?

Chassis is an 88 with the totally original ABS offset front suspension package, right? Or Frankenstein collection? No mods to the steering knuckles or struts? Original tie rods? Which brand of camber plates?

Let's make sure NOTHING is loose and moving under hard cornering. We're assuming that.

That's alot of questions but I'm sure we can get you going fine. You might just be trying too dang hard to catch ME and you're just over driving the car.

Yeah....that's probably it.

[Bill Addy]

Dilly, Vegas was rough on tires-PERIOD. I too wore out a brand new set that weekend. It may not be the car, could be the track. Hate to have you miss, although my car is still on the rack at BF...

[944-Spec#94]

Seems to me if you are running your front tires down you have simple too much understeer.

 

 

Dilly did you put 28 mm t-bars in the back of the car?

 

For short more turning tracks you need the 30's in the back to get the car to rotate and to put power down and not get understeer. I ran a bunch of races with 350 front springs and 28 mm t-bars fighing understeer. I coud make it OK by tweaking my sway bars quite a bit, but it was not perfect.

 

Big Willow in general is a very different track from all the others. Very few low speed turns and lots of high speed stuff. I fully expect what works for 1:35's at Willow may suck everywhere else.

 

Cal Speedway drives much more like a short track inspite of it speed. The banking is fast, but all else is much tighter and takes a different set-up from willow. As for las Vegas... The AMLS track there is just plain odd. The legends oval part can really scrub tires if you don't have a good set-up.

[PeanutinCA]

Sorry guys, I can't log in at home, computer issue.

 

Joe, I changed everything. Shocks, springs just a race earlier, bushings, TBars. So, the car is completely different. What I found;

 

Front full soft, rear full soft, it would push in slow speed corners and the same in high speed corners, I could not run the inside and say Mikael had been able to. I started toward full stiff on the rear bar when Mikael suggested removing the front bar completely. So I did, the car was now loose. Dangerously loose, so I went full soft on the rear bar at that point. getting back 3 seconds per lap over previous session and back in the mix. So, I went a step further and removed the rear bar altogether. This yielded similar results to earlier, although not until I pushed the car a bit harder so, it was a slight improvement over having the bars connected. I think with this on Sunday morning from memory I went to the fast on 944's for a couple sessions. But as the day progressed and the weekend progressed, I think I just ran out of tires. As I got slower as Sunday and then end of day Sunday came around. I even had to swap one of the new tires for an old as it showed a glimps of thread. So, obviously running no bars is not the answer. I am going to try a softer front bar to see if I can utilize the adjustable Welt rear bar. I have a stock front bar to put on but I need some bushings for the drop links and just haven't made the call. Perhaps I'll make that call now? Anyway, this year (at least the first half) was for testing, thus the radical suspension changes. And I don't think race weekends are the place to do it as I made some radical changes and stayed at that because I had qualifying and races to deal with. You go to a race weekend to race, not to test. So, I may try come testing Friday and bring someone else along to have some fun in my car?

 

See how things pan out.

 

P.D.

[PeanutinCA]

For short more turning tracks you need the 30's in the back to get the car to rotate and to put power down and not get understeer. I ran a bunch of races with 350 front springs and 28 mm t-bars fighing understeer. I coud make it OK by tweaking my sway bars quite a bit, but it was not perfect.

 

That seems to be the opposite of what everyone here is doing and thinking? People have gone softer for short twisty tracks. Certainly at streets, one weekend, Jim and I ran Laguna setup which for me was full stiff in the rear and were 1.5-2 secs off Mikael. For Sunday, we both made changes, I went full soft in the rear (with 30 mm bars) and was within 2 tenths from Mikael and Jim was slightly faster than Mikael.

 

So, softening with sway bars, isn't that the same as softening with TBars? And then the next race weekend at Big Willow. I left the rear bar at full soft and was running with the pack in the mid 1:36's. For Sunday morning I went full stiff with the rear bar and dipped into the 35's with consistant 36.0's and low 36's.

 

How does that fit with your experience? Because it may be driving style?

 

P.D.

[944-Spec#94]

Some of this may be driving style certainly.

 

However in my experience.

 

If the rear is softer than the front = understeer.

 

rear is stiffer = oversteer.

 

Now oversteer is good until two points.

 

1) car us uncomfortable or undriveable in faster corners

 

2) the car is too still in he rear causing traction problems with an open diff.

 

75% of the balance comes from you spring rates. If you have you spring rates off then you can compensate with sways, but that is not an ideal thing as sway bars respond very differently from springs. Thus they way the car reacts may be close it will not be right.

 

Example. on my car with 350 fronts and 28 or 30 mm t-bars. Depending on the position of the rear sway bar I could make the 28 mm t-bars work. However I had to crank them full stiff to do it and ran less negative camber in the rear. So in some places this worked fine. Other this really sucked since I was asking the sway bar to compensate for the springs.

 

In my eyes these car un best when you keep the front and rear springs balanced.

So 350lbs springs in front with 30 mm t-bars is "balacned". This is 350 front and 335 effective in the rear. A stock 944 has very nice balance and runs even spring rates. They are in the 140 front and 126lbs rear.

 

Now 28 mm t-bars =254 lbs in. These work well with 250 lbs springs.

 

I to run a 350/ 254 set-up the car is biased torward understeer and thus you need to balance it in other ways. Those are aligment and sway bars. I don't believe those are as effective as with the proper rear spring rate.

 

Chris Cervelli set-up a number of 944 spec cars using 250 front and 30 mm t-bars. The goal was a soft car with no understeer. So to do that he went with really soft sway bars. His feeling was the welt sway bars were "too big" for the spring rates we run. Glenn Gormely uses one of chris's set-up to great effect.

 

For me I want my car stiff and balanced and love the 350/30 set-up. I get very even tire wear and after some minor swaybar adjustments got the right balance of understeer and oversteer. I also rotate my tires every day on the track to ensure a more even wear rate.

 

For me I like a tight suspension my driving goal is to never slow down. Thus I will enter a corner and pitch the back end around to make it go fast. I want eliminate corner exit power on understeer at all costs as this costs me lots of speed. A little corner entry understeer can be adjusted with some trailbraking if needed. Also my driving style pushes me to apex as early as I can and still make it out of the corner with good speed. This means I am on the traction limit going out of the corner because of my entry speed into the corner.

 

One way to really scrub the front tires is to get corner exit understeer. You really want and need to get on the power, but are scrubbing speed. In this case you need the rear stiffer ideally with spring as soft sprigns and big bar will cause inside wheel lifting. In the front you want things to be softer, but if you run soft springs you need a softer bar to get traction. However you also need to run enough negative camber to keep the contact patch right. A softer front roll rate needs more negative camber to keep the tire right.

 

I hope this all makes sense.

BTW... Chris Cervelli does not care for my car set-up. He feels his set-up is better to achieve the aims that we both want. That is neutral to oversteering car at corner exit and entry.

[n wright]

Tim,

 

What is included in Sean & Russ's rentals. How many days, consumables, etc?

[Packfill]

Joe,

 

I agree with you, however, what Dyan is saying, and I also agree, is that WITH A BALANCED car, stiffer (on all four corners) is better on fast tracks, (Big Willow, Cal SPeedway) and softer is better on tight tracks (Streets, PIR, BWillow)

 

In other words, if you wanted to go throught the hassle of changing your t-bar and springs every race, Chris's set up would be generally faster at the tighter tracks, and yours at the faster speedways.... ALthough a great driver will make either car work....

 

Does this make sense to you??

[944-Spec#94]

I don't agree.

 

Reason is we run these cars pretty soft in general.

 

Here is my thinking.

 

Stiff suspensions are only needed to get the car to react FAST.

 

This mean if you could maintain the camber of the tires a stock suspension would provide not less grip than a stiff car. What the stiff car does very well however is to allow the car to transfer its weigh very quickly. A soft car takes time to take a set. On a track like Big Willow you don't need the car to transition qucickly. All the turns except for turn 3 and turn 5 are very gradual entries. Places like PIR, AMP, & Cal speedway you need the car to transition from fast otherwise you get behind.

 

I drove a bone stock 83 944 in a few autocrosses over the past couple years. I found the balance to be the same as my 944 spec car. The grip level was less, but only due the street tires and excessive camber change. Once you got past the feeling that that car going roll over and got past the sea sickness stage the car was pretty fast on the autocross. The biggest issue was it took a LONG time for the car transfer its weigh in sweeping corners this was not an issue. In tigher sections especially slolams the car was hard to drive since you had to drive it 2 cones early while waiting for it to transfer the weight.

 

 

Now... This is different from feel.

 

On fast track a soft car will feel really odd as you really notice the movements. The stiff car will feel more solid and really at Willow you must "FEEL" good to go fast. It is all about confidence.

 

On tight track the stiff car may react so quick that you feel you can control it or it does not stick. The softer car will lean more and may give you a better "seat of the pants" idea on how the car is doing. Thus being faster.

 

 

Given our very low 335 lbs in rear spring rate limit I don't see how we can get these cars "too stiff". They can feel too stiff for some driver's tastes. And lets not forget both driver and car have to match for the combo to be fast. Even if "stiffer = better" if the driver does not like the feel and is not confident it may not be the best for that driver at their current state of development.

 

BTW... if we ran 800 to 1000lbs springs then a car can start to get too stiff for certain tracks. I simple don't beleive we are there.

 

Also... I don't consider Cal Speedway a "fast" track for suspension set-up purposes. All the corners that you care about are medium speed corners.

 

 

Here is a link to a rennlist thread were Chris Cervelli and I discussed 944 suspension. On page 2 he makes some very good point about the way he like to set-up a 944 spec vs the way I like my car.

 

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=255950

 

It is nice read.

[944 Swede]

Anyone know for sure what time the gate opens on Friday, 3/10 at Cal Speedway?

[944-Spec#94]

7am I would assume?

 

That is when I plan on being there.