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Rule Proposal - Open GTS to non-German marques


samhole
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In many regions GTS is struggling with car counts. If the series is opened up to become “Global Touring Series” and allow non-German cars there is potential to see an increase in car counts.

The open rules of GTS and simple power to weight classing allow cars built to rule sets of other organizations  to easily cross over and race with NASA and I see no reason to limit it to only German cars. Additionally drivers that are frustrated with the restrictive rules in st4/5 might consider coming to GTS.

I have no data to support this but GTS has nothing to lose and everything to gain by going global.

I currently race GTS2 in the North East

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We’ve been discussing this for 4 years now with racers continually supporting it. There are a ton of cars outside of NASA in places like Gridlife that would fit into GTS2 or GTS3. Many cars that run there would never be ST4-6 legal due to the restrictions there in regards to fenders/aero etc. So why not make GTS an option for them where an open rule set allows them to easily fit in. ST4-6 is pretty dead in MidAtlantic now. I see several of those racers switching to TT or not showing up at all due to the lack of competition. If NASA wants to increase car count and participation this is a pretty easy way to get that done. We regularly have 8-10 cars in GTS2. Racers in my region support the change. So what reason is there not to make the change at this point?!

Lawrence Gibson 

Mid-Atlantic

GTS2/ST3
 

 

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I disagree. I believe dilution of the series will only serve to make the rule-set much more complicated as the variety of “what about this for that car/marquee/engine” scenarios multiplies. 

Christina

GTS-2, Rocky Mountain 

 

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16 minutes ago, dnvrdrvr said:

I disagree. I believe dilution of the series will only serve to make the rule-set much more complicated as the variety of “what about this for that car/marquee/engine” scenarios multiplies. 

Christina

GTS-2, Rocky Mountain 

 

I don’t see how this would complicate the rules any further. The modifiers for fwd/awd, sequentials, and non-dot tires already exist and have proven to create balanced competition between very different platforms. What other modifiers do you think would be needed?

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Unpopular opinion.

GTS for everyone already exists.

It's called ST.

 

GTS and ST should just be completely merged.

Less classes = more cars per class.

 

Honestly, the same applies to lots of other classes as well.
With sufficient modifiers for solid axle suspension, AI/AIX could merge into ST
Honda challenge could merge in as is.

 

My dream scenario is essentially just ST and then spec classes (miata, e30, e46, 944, CMC, etc).
If any of the ST classes get too big (ST3, 4, and 5 would get pretty huge), then maybe create more classes, or just separate out FWD into its own classes.

 

Plus, then lots more people could easily cross over into TT if desired.

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Just a reminder please identify yourself at the bottom of the post by listing your Class and Region.

in regards to the thought of eliminating all of the classes by merging all to ST - couple of points - with all of the potential modifiers - there are and will be plenty of cars completely excluded and deemed non-competitive. That will ultimately simple reshuffle the existing fields into less classes, but will do nothing to attract those cars and drivers currently sitting on the sidelines or outside of NASA. We need to make an effort to expand the net and catch/ attract those drivers into NASA. By offering different Rule structures we have a better shot, than simply pushing All into 6 classes. That is why we do need AI, HC, GTS. CMC and others. We are still way short of SCCA class count and should be able to match and exceed their car counts.

Tansar Motorsports, let me respectfully disagree - there are plenty of differences in Rule Set between GTS and ST and merging it by force will simply make many GTS cars probably go away.

Michael G

GTS Nat Dir.

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On 10/4/2021 at 4:49 PM, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Unpopular opinion.

GTS for everyone already exists.

It's called ST.

 

GTS and ST should just be completely merged.

Less classes = more cars per class.

 

Honestly, the same applies to lots of other classes as well.
With sufficient modifiers for solid axle suspension, AI/AIX could merge into ST
Honda challenge could merge in as is.

 

My dream scenario is essentially just ST and then spec classes (miata, e30, e46, 944, CMC, etc).
If any of the ST classes get too big (ST3, 4, and 5 would get pretty huge), then maybe create more classes, or just separate out FWD into its own classes.

 

Plus, then lots more people could easily cross over into TT if desired.

St is not the same as GTS for the ruleset.  GTS is a much more open ruleset where as ST is very restrictive.....especially in the st4/5/6 classes.  The premise of the rulesets are polar opposites.  GTS is build/bring the best mouse trap on this set of rules, where as ST is trying to equalize all the different platforms. 

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I've yet to see any real negatives proposed for such a change unless some non-german car out there will have some crazy advantage within the current ruleset. I think the pushback would then come from the potential of killing the ST class? SCCA has similar-ish class distinctions and those classes as still doing well. Kudos for having this discussion, especially if this means more GTS1 cars! 

 

 

Taylor Johnson
Spec3
Mid Atlantic 

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On 10/14/2021 at 9:31 AM, TaylorGoesFast said:

I've yet to see any real negatives proposed for such a change unless some non-german car out there will have some crazy advantage within the current ruleset. I think the pushback would then come from the potential of killing the ST class? SCCA has similar-ish class distinctions and those classes as still doing well. Kudos for having this discussion, especially if this means more GTS1 cars! 

 

Pretty much all of the popular GTS cars have strut front suspension (All BMW, Cayman, 911 up to the 991 gen, 944, etc).  So I think the big threat would be very good double wishbone cars that would now be eligible (corvette, S2000, RX8, BRZ/FRS, etc).  Hence why the lower ST classes have a correction factor for this.

The other problem is that GTS doesn't have any truly good handling FWD cars currently, but would now be open to all manner of Hondas, etc.

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5 hours ago, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Pretty much all of the popular GTS cars have strut front suspension (All BMW, Cayman, 911 up to the 991 gen, 944, etc).  So I think the big threat would be very good double wishbone cars that would now be eligible (corvette, S2000, RX8, BRZ/FRS, etc).  Hence why the lower ST classes have a correction factor for this.

The other problem is that GTS doesn't have any truly good handling FWD cars currently, but would now be open to all manner of Hondas, etc.

I still haven't seen a S2000, RX8, BRZ/FRS run a pace at a Midatlantic track that anyone in an e36 would be scared of. As a matter of fact we are often laughing at how silly it is that ST5 mods them bc it makes it impossible for them to compete with a well built/driven e36. In ST5/TT5 an e36 has the VIR track record which is more than a second over what any of the cars you have mentioned have run. And the GTS2 record is a couple seconds faster than that despite being only .5 more power. I do agree that the Corvette's would create a challenge just due to the massive tire and torque they have. But oddly enough, the GTS rulset already somewhat calculates for that by limiting torque at 10% above hp. So the massive tq advantage LS's have in the ST rule set would not translate to GTS2 and only mildly in GTS3. So in essence "Bring it On."

 

I'm not sure if you are out the loop, but GTS is open to literally the fastest FWD race cars in existence, Audi/VW TCR's. ST literally had to change their rules just to compensate for them. So once again, nobody is scared of Honda's in GTS. Or at least they shouldn't be. The H2 cars which have more power than GTS2 yet are 5+ seconds slower a lap. So why should anyone in GTS be scared of cars that are setting slower laptimes with more power?

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6 hours ago, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Pretty much all of the popular GTS cars have strut front suspension (All BMW, Cayman, 911 up to the 991 gen, 944, etc).  So I think the big threat would be very good double wishbone cars that would now be eligible (corvette, S2000, RX8, BRZ/FRS, etc).  Hence why the lower ST classes have a correction factor for this.

The other problem is that GTS doesn't have any truly good handling FWD cars currently, but would now be open to all manner of Hondas, etc.

GTS cars, specifically BMWs, typically have some the highest cornering speeds on track on any given weekend. I don’t think it would be an issue.

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On 10/15/2021 at 9:55 PM, daytonars4 said:

I still haven't seen a S2000, RX8, BRZ/FRS run a pace at a Midatlantic track that anyone in an e36 would be scared of. As a matter of fact we are often laughing at how silly it is that ST5 mods them bc it makes it impossible for them to compete with a well built/driven e36. In ST5/TT5 an e36 has the VIR track record which is more than a second over what any of the cars you have mentioned have run. And the GTS2 record is a couple seconds faster than that despite being only .5 more power. I do agree that the Corvette's would create a challenge just due to the massive tire and torque they have. But oddly enough, the GTS rulset already somewhat calculates for that by limiting torque at 10% above hp. So the massive tq advantage LS's have in the ST rule set would not translate to GTS2 and only mildly in GTS3. So in essence "Bring it On."

 

I'm not sure if you are out the loop, but GTS is open to literally the fastest FWD race cars in existence, Audi/VW TCR's. ST literally had to change their rules just to compensate for them. So once again, nobody is scared of Honda's in GTS. Or at least they shouldn't be. The H2 cars which have more power than GTS2 yet are 5+ seconds slower a lap. So why should anyone in GTS be scared of cars that are setting slower laptimes with more power?

Does any E36 really have the ST5 track record at VIR? If you're going by the NASA MA Lap Record sheet, it's rarely updated anymore. The BRZs have been absolutely FLYING in ST5 in recent years. 

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On 10/22/2021 at 1:14 PM, TaylorGoesFast said:

Does any E36 really have the ST5 track record at VIR? If you're going by the NASA MA Lap Record sheet, it's rarely updated anymore. The BRZs have been absolutely FLYING in ST5 in recent years. 

I was at the track when the record was set by an e36. It’s a fully race prepped car but he only runs TT5. I’m at every VIR event so I can say it with certainty. A BRZ/RX8 may have the ST5 record, but it’s more than a second slower than what the e36 ran. When you compare the GTS2 times it lines up well with what the e36 ran in TT5. The ST5 pace would be considered a bit off pace when compared to GTS2 times. So honestly, I’ve never seen a pace from the BRZ’s in my region that would give any e36 racer a reason for concern. If anything, I always hear the BRZ/RX8 guys whining about how e36’s are only faster Bc they are “expensive” builds. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/15/2021 at 9:55 PM, daytonars4 said:

I still haven't seen a S2000, RX8, BRZ/FRS run a pace at a Midatlantic track that anyone in an e36 would be scared of. As a matter of fact we are often laughing at how silly it is that ST5 mods them bc it makes it impossible for them to compete with a well built/driven e36. 

At a Mid-Atlantic track, yeah the E36 or an E46 will rule most times. Big tracks like VIR favor more power.  The Northeast tracks would say otherwise. There are a handful of very fast E36s in ST5, but the S2000s typically have more cornering speeds than we do as do the BRZs, MX-5s etc. The front-running ST5 cars in NE are running near front-runner GTS2 times.

GTS in the NE has a great bunch of racers with similar cars but VERY different setups. All fast AF. Is THIS what it would take to get the 10+ GTS2 and 10+ GTS3 fields again like back in 2014-2015? I loved seeing GTS have their own race groups years ago. If so, I'm not against this idea 🙌

I DO however get concerned in terms of contingencies since it can get complicated when one class tries to be like another but allowing more makes with "less restrictions". Companies and sponsors typically can only give so much contingency to a particular class and you risk of losing them completely if there are too many "similar" classes. Also - The minute someone shows up with an import or domestic with big tires and aero and wipes the floor with dominant GTS cars, people will get pretty salty 😝

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