Jump to content

TT/ST Hit for Transmissions - Revision Needed


Brian Clarke
 Share

Recommended Posts

With todays Torque Converter Automatics and so many newer cars that have built in blip shift (auto rev match) and Flat Foot Shifting (FFS) - The hit for DCT, Semi-Automatic is too much.

 

Having looked at data for the past 2 years with up and coming chassis, the DCT is at a disadvantage to even a auto rev match, FFS equiped manual transmission.  DCT is also being removed by most manufacturers and replaced with torque converter based automatic transmissions (which don't take a hit).

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed.  DCT, SMG (BMW), and traditional automatics should all take the same penalty.

 

Blip shift or other tricks on manuals should not take a penalty.  For one, it would be very hard to enforce.  Second, similar features can be programmed into any older cars that have throttle by wire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff
8 hours ago, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Agreed.  DCT, SMG (BMW), and traditional automatics should all take the same penalty.

 

Blip shift or other tricks on manuals should not take a penalty.  For one, it would be very hard to enforce.  Second, similar features can be programmed into any older cars that have throttle by wire.

So, sounds like another reason (besides tuning capability) that Drive by Wire should have a negative Mod Factor, or rather direct cable throttle should have a positive Mod Factor?  We are seeing these requests come in this year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Greg G. said:

So, sounds like another reason (besides tuning capability) that Drive by Wire should have a negative Mod Factor, or rather direct cable throttle should have a positive Mod Factor?  We are seeing these requests come in this year.

I disagree.

Tuning:  Yes, drive by wire offers an easy way to flatten out your power curve by pulling throttle at high RPM.  But there isn't much difference between this and the old school restrictor plate method.  Also, our AVG PWR calculation method/rules is designed to equalize cars with peaky and flat power curves.  I would say this rule does a pretty good job already, and that wanting a flat power curve is more of a personal preference than a competitive advantage.

Automatic throttle blip: Yes, this type of tuning would help with smoother downshifts and faster upshifts.  But, is it actually any better than what an experienced racer can achieve manually?  Put these features on an already front running car and it wont be any faster is my guess.  Put them on a rookie's car, and they will certainly be a bit faster.  But we shouldn't be writing the rules based on the back of the field, it should be based on the fastest cars/drivers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/7/2021 at 12:04 PM, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Agreed.  DCT, SMG (BMW), and traditional automatics should all take the same penalty.

 

Blip shift or other tricks on manuals should not take a penalty.  For one, it would be very hard to enforce.  Second, similar features can be programmed into any older cars that have throttle by wire.

Completely Disagree, those are a driver assist. Dont want a penalty? Learn to heel toe. Having those items make it just as easy to downshift and drive and a sequential.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff

SMG, DCT, DSG, and PDK do not perform the same.  Are you stating you think that a DSG and PDK are the same as a modern torque converter automatic?  Or, just the SMG and DCT are no better?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Greg G. said:

SMG, DCT, DSG, and PDK do not perform the same.  Are you stating you think that a DSG and PDK are the same as a modern torque converter automatic?  Or, just the SMG and DCT are no better?

DCT/PDK are no longer better than torque converter automatics that don't take any hit at all.

 

Add to that, Manual Trans with Rev Match from the factory, or the AutoBlip product make a manual an easy process.  The skill deficit has been reduced.  So the DCT/PDK hit is too high against modern manuals.

 

Edited by Brian Clarke
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
  • National Staff
On 4/19/2022 at 9:55 AM, Anderson Motorsports said:

Did any further discussion take place on this?

The 2022 rules added the below automatics to the -0.5 Mod Factor list.

ST3 & ST4: OEM dual clutch (ex. DCT, DSG, PDK), all automatic
transmissions w/ 6 gears or more,
Dog-ring/straight-cut gears (non-synchromesh) = -0.5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It appears the OEM dual clutch (ex. DCT, DSG, PDK) takes a -0.5mod hit and six speed Flat Foot Shift or Rev match does not.  Has there been any data comparing comparable cars to justify the -0.5 mod if so I would like to review.

Edited by CeeDubb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • National Staff

Clayton, there is plenty of proprietary data out there.  We have reviewed some of that data at National that we have access to, although we have not commissioned our own studies.  We found no data indicating that the rule should be changed at this time, or that flat foot shift or rev match is close to the gains of the best of the dual clutch (or the newer automatic) transmissions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...