TT/ST Hit for Transmissions - Revision Needed

[Brian Clarke]

With todays Torque Converter Automatics and so many newer cars that have built in blip shift (auto rev match) and Flat Foot Shifting (FFS) - The hit for DCT, Semi-Automatic is too much.

 

Having looked at data for the past 2 years with up and coming chassis, the DCT is at a disadvantage to even a auto rev match, FFS equiped manual transmission.  DCT is also being removed by most manufacturers and replaced with torque converter based automatic transmissions (which don't take a hit).

 

 

[Brian Clarke]

Also - Does an Automatic Torque Converter Transmission take any hit at all?

 

@Greg G. ?

Edited October 6, 2021 by Brian Clarke

[Tansar_Motorsports]

Agreed.  DCT, SMG (BMW), and traditional automatics should all take the same penalty.

 

Blip shift or other tricks on manuals should not take a penalty.  For one, it would be very hard to enforce.  Second, similar features can be programmed into any older cars that have throttle by wire.

[Greg G.]

8 hours ago, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Agreed.  DCT, SMG (BMW), and traditional automatics should all take the same penalty.

 

Blip shift or other tricks on manuals should not take a penalty.  For one, it would be very hard to enforce.  Second, similar features can be programmed into any older cars that have throttle by wire.

So, sounds like another reason (besides tuning capability) that Drive by Wire should have a negative Mod Factor, or rather direct cable throttle should have a positive Mod Factor?  We are seeing these requests come in this year.

[Tansar_Motorsports]

12 hours ago, Greg G. said:

So, sounds like another reason (besides tuning capability) that Drive by Wire should have a negative Mod Factor, or rather direct cable throttle should have a positive Mod Factor?  We are seeing these requests come in this year.

I disagree.

Tuning:  Yes, drive by wire offers an easy way to flatten out your power curve by pulling throttle at high RPM.  But there isn't much difference between this and the old school restrictor plate method.  Also, our AVG PWR calculation method/rules is designed to equalize cars with peaky and flat power curves.  I would say this rule does a pretty good job already, and that wanting a flat power curve is more of a personal preference than a competitive advantage.

Automatic throttle blip: Yes, this type of tuning would help with smoother downshifts and faster upshifts.  But, is it actually any better than what an experienced racer can achieve manually?  Put these features on an already front running car and it wont be any faster is my guess.  Put them on a rookie's car, and they will certainly be a bit faster.  But we shouldn't be writing the rules based on the back of the field, it should be based on the fastest cars/drivers.

[Dunzcon]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:04 PM, Tansar_Motorsports said:

Agreed.  DCT, SMG (BMW), and traditional automatics should all take the same penalty.

 

Blip shift or other tricks on manuals should not take a penalty.  For one, it would be very hard to enforce.  Second, similar features can be programmed into any older cars that have throttle by wire.

Completely Disagree, those are a driver assist. Dont want a penalty? Learn to heel toe. Having those items make it just as easy to downshift and drive and a sequential.   

[Greg G.]

SMG, DCT, DSG, and PDK do not perform the same.  Are you stating you think that a DSG and PDK are the same as a modern torque converter automatic?  Or, just the SMG and DCT are no better?

[Brian Clarke]

22 hours ago, Greg G. said:

SMG, DCT, DSG, and PDK do not perform the same.  Are you stating you think that a DSG and PDK are the same as a modern torque converter automatic?  Or, just the SMG and DCT are no better?

DCT/PDK are no longer better than torque converter automatics that don't take any hit at all.

 

Add to that, Manual Trans with Rev Match from the factory, or the AutoBlip product make a manual an easy process.  The skill deficit has been reduced.  So the DCT/PDK hit is too high against modern manuals.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Brian Clarke

[Anderson Motorsports]

Did any further discussion take place on this?

[Greg G.]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:55 AM, Anderson Motorsports said:

Did any further discussion take place on this?

The 2022 rules added the below automatics to the -0.5 Mod Factor list.

ST3 & ST4: OEM dual clutch (ex. DCT, DSG, PDK), all automatic
transmissions w/ 6 gears or more,
Dog-ring/straight-cut gears (non-synchromesh) = -0.5

[CeeDubb]

It appears the OEM dual clutch (ex. DCT, DSG, PDK) takes a -0.5mod hit and six speed Flat Foot Shift or Rev match does not.  Has there been any data comparing comparable cars to justify the -0.5 mod if so I would like to review.

Edited April 21, 2022 by CeeDubb

[Greg G.]

Clayton, there is plenty of proprietary data out there.  We have reviewed some of that data at National that we have access to, although we have not commissioned our own studies.  We found no data indicating that the rule should be changed at this time, or that flat foot shift or rev match is close to the gains of the best of the dual clutch (or the newer automatic) transmissions.