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2022 ST Rules Release Today!


Greg G.
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On 12/7/2021 at 5:40 PM, land Yatch racing said:

I am still a bit curious on what problem is going to be solved or improved by using a spec tire for st4? Or a bit of reasoning of why its a good idea to move in that direction?

Is it to make more competitive racing?

Or is it to limit arguments of different tires effects on performance?

Or is there another reason, we don't know about yet?

 

 

 

Also curious regarding this question.  Perhaps if there is an opportunity for a discount for competitors, more people would be on board.  

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It completely DOESN'T MAKE SENSE to make ST4 a spec tire class.  Why a spec tire for a non spec class? Why only ST4? Why only at nationals? Why force us away from our Toyo sponsors? I don't have "tunes",  so I guess I need to build an entire 2nd motor....just for nationals? So with the high cost of nationals entry fees, practice fees, travel, now I need to buy more expensive tires and redesign my car,....for 1 race? Why didn't you get any input from the racers in ST4? Who voted or asked for this change?

It is completely untrue that "The St4 runs Hoosiers anyways".  Bob Costas, Matt Engel, Mark Burt all ran Toyos at Championships 2021.

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5 hours ago, Matt Engel said:

It completely DOESN'T MAKE SENSE to make ST4 a spec tire class.  Why a spec tire for a non spec class? Why only ST4? Why only at nationals? Why force us away from our Toyo sponsors? I don't have "tunes",  so I guess I need to build an entire 2nd motor....just for nationals? So with the high cost of nationals entry fees, practice fees, travel, now I need to buy more expensive tires and redesign my car,....for 1 race? Why didn't you get any input from the racers in ST4? Who voted or asked for this change?

It is completely untrue that "The St4 runs Hoosiers anyways".  Bob Costas, Matt Engel, Mark Burt all ran Toyos at Championships 2021.

What if instead they told you, ok no spec tire for nationals but the R7 is the spec tire for all of ST4 next year! What would your reaction be or how would you address it moving forward?

or what if they told you toyo is now the spec tire, what would your reaction be?

Edited by esr
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I'm going to make the rookie mistake of complaining about a rule before I even compete in a class, but I've been building/prepping an ST4 car for the last year plus and the move to a spec tire, especially one as expensive as Purple Crack, will prevent me from even entering the class.

Hoosiers may be the de-facto spec tire for ST4 front-runners, but having a mod factor that can allow me, as a novice racer, to run a far more affordable tire in the class, makes the class available for me to enter. As a novice, I won't be a front-runner, but if the mod factor is at all accurate it might allow me to be competitive with some part of the Hoosier-running pack.

I have some budget for racing, but the idea of going out for my first session in a race class and making a rookie mistake that toasts my fresh set of $1200 tires is just nauseating. 

I don't want to spend money like a national-caliber driver in order to enter the class at all. Isn't that part of the spirit of amateur racing?

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NASA did a tire survey of all of our competitors this past year.  Everyone had the opportunity to speak up.  The large majority of competitors responding in ST4 wanted to stay on Hoosier tires.  We have also had similar feedback from our other sources such as speaking with our drivers directly.

NASA made it "required"  for the 2022 Champs to help continue receiving the most lucrative contingency benefits for our participants.  We will continue to attempt to get any other benefits that we can for our drivers.  
 
We will reassess this issue as the year progresses and the new tire rules start to have an impact on results. We also will be looking at the potential benefits of Spec tires in ST5 and ST6 in the future, and not necessarily the same tires or brands.   
 
 
 
 
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45 minutes ago, Greg G. said:

NASA did a tire survey of all of our competitors this past year.  Everyone had the opportunity to speak up.  The large majority of competitors responding in ST4 wanted to stay on Hoosier tires.  We have also had similar feedback from our other sources such as speaking with our drivers directly.

NASA made it "required"  for the 2022 Champs to help continue receiving the most lucrative contingency benefits for our participants.  We will continue to attempt to get any other benefits that we can for our drivers.  
 
We will reassess this issue as the year progresses and the new tire rules start to have an impact on results. We also will be looking at the potential benefits of Spec tires in ST5 and ST6 in the future, and not necessarily the same tires or brands.   
 
 
 
 


Saw anything from NASA regarding this and I went through all my emails how is the survey conductedI’ve never Saw anything from NASA regarding this and I went through all my emails how is the survey conducted

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So here's a scenario.........

C7 Grand Sport,

stock hp figured at 391 to the wheels,

200lb driver and full interior competition weight of 3628

slaps on 315/345 Nitto NT01

detunes just a smidge to 362 wheel hp

fits into to TT4!!!!!!  and he can run all TT4 aero......wing.....4" splitter...........

I compete in TT4 and do very well running a 245 R7, but I sure as shit can't hang with a C7 Grand sport.

TT4 guys are complaining about having to use R7s.......it wont matter if you use A7s.  The TT3 guys are grinning from ear to ear and will hold all the TT4 track records after the 2022 season running on NT01s or R888s, and I hold one of those TT4 track records.  So why should I buy R7's and stay in TT4??  I think I'll buy NT01s and move down to TT5.  

This example carries over into all classes.  Just buy a cheaper tire (NT01s last forever by the way) and move down a class.  So the real loser here is Hoosier.  Why would anyone buy a Hoosier when you can get a +1.6 point advantage on a pretty darn good track tire???

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On 12/14/2021 at 1:19 PM, esr said:

What if instead they told you, ok no spec tire for nationals but the R7 is the spec tire for all of ST4 next year! What would your reaction be or how would you address it moving forward?

or what if they told you toyo is now the spec tire, what would your reaction be?

I'd have to switch classes, (from the class I have been running for 3 years).

I take the BTW, <282mm, and Toyo RR bonus (+1.3 mod factor) to make the p.t.w. of ST4.

So for the 2022 national championships, I'll have to run a higher class, for 1 race only.

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2 hours ago, Matt Engel said:

I'd have to switch classes, (from the class I have been running for 3 years).

I take the BTW, <282mm, and Toyo RR bonus (+1.3 mod factor) to make the p.t.w. of ST4.

So for the 2022 national championships, I'll have to run a higher class, for 1 race only.

Thanks for your reply 

it’s crazy imo NASA shot them self’s on the foot at the beginning Trying  to please everyone.

free for all, no vision or mission!

not looking good!

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10 hours ago, mule22 said:

So here's a scenario.........

C7 Grand Sport,

stock hp figured at 391 to the wheels,

200lb driver and full interior competition weight of 3628

slaps on 315/345 Nitto NT01

detunes just a smidge to 362 wheel hp

fits into to TT4!!!!!!  and he can run all TT4 aero......wing.....4" splitter...........

I compete in TT4 and do very well running a 245 R7, but I sure as shit can't hang with a C7 Grand sport.

TT4 guys are complaining about having to use R7s.......it wont matter if you use A7s.  The TT3 guys are grinning from ear to ear and will hold all the TT4 track records after the 2022 season running on NT01s or R888s, and I hold one of those TT4 track records.  So why should I buy R7's and stay in TT4??  I think I'll buy NT01s and move down to TT5.  

This example carries over into all classes.  Just buy a cheaper tire (NT01s last forever by the way) and move down a class.  So the real loser here is Hoosier.  Why would anyone buy a Hoosier when you can get a +1.6 point advantage on a pretty darn good track tire???

TT4 has a max width rule of 282mm, so your scenario would put that car in TT3.

Edited by Eric Jensen
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On 12/20/2021 at 12:22 PM, Brian Clarke said:


Saw anything from NASA regarding this and I went through all my emails how is the survey conductedI’ve never Saw anything from NASA regarding this and I went through all my emails how is the survey conducted

The survey was sent out to all NASA ST Racers.  It was not sent to TT drivers, because there was no consideration on the table to have a Spec tire in any TT class.

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On 12/21/2021 at 10:04 PM, Eric Jensen said:

TT4 has a max width rule of 282mm, so your scenario would put that car in TT3.

Okay, I didn't take that into consideration, big deal.  So the C7 runs a square set up of 275's and has 80 more whp than me.  

The point is +1.6 is way too much to run an NT01 over an R7(+2.6 is the delta between A7 and NT01).  I was going to buy a new set of R7's, since I've been running on two year old R7s, but not now.  I'll spend half the money on a new set of NT01's (should have as much grip as my old R7s), and turn the boost up for more hp.  My lap times should be the same or improve a bit.

So who loses here................Hoosier.

Maybe this scenario is easier...........

My car not changed from last season;

If I run A7s I can run 262 whp.

If I run R7s I can run 285 whp.

If I run NT01s I can run 329 whp.

A7 to R7 gap 23 whp.

R7 to NT01 gap 44 whp!

A7 to NT01 gap........you do the math.

Are we really going to have cars in the same class running 30-40 mph faster on the back straights?  Should be interesting.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, mule22 said:

Okay, I didn't take that into consideration, big deal.  So the C7 runs a square set up of 275's and has 80 more whp than me.  

The point is +1.6 is way too much to run an NT01 over an R7(+2.6 is the delta between A7 and NT01).  I was going to buy a new set of R7's, since I've been running on two year old R7s, but not now.  I'll spend half the money on a new set of NT01's (should have as much grip as my old R7s), and turn the boost up for more hp.  My lap times should be the same or improve a bit.

So who loses here................Hoosier.

Maybe this scenario is easier...........

My car not changed from last season;

If I run A7s I can run 262 whp.

If I run R7s I can run 285 whp.

If I run NT01s I can run 329 whp.

A7 to R7 gap 23 whp.

R7 to NT01 gap 44 whp!

A7 to NT01 gap........you do the math.

Are we really going to have cars in the same class running 30-40 mph faster on the back straights?  Should be interesting.

 

 

 

 

The magic of grabbing pen and paper!

we need a spec tire whatever that is.

if you can’t detune your car enough or pump up enough w/o the need of tire modifiers then  your car needs to go to another class.

Multi tire nonsense should have never happen, it’s already hard as it is.

The amount of time and energy already wasted talking about tires, how many other things could have been done with that time and energy to grow the class.

make ST4 a spec tire class  and see what happens.

1 set per weekend. Sat/sun

if r7 is not good for 2 days of racing for the heavier  boys then pick a different tire.

I have 4 or 5 new sets of R7 in storage but I don’t care I will switch tomorrow to whatever spec tire works for 2 days of racing.

 

Edited by esr
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Consider that part of the allure of running an open class such as Super Touring as opposed to a Spec class such as SpecE46, SpecMiata, etc. is creativity.  Being able to try different setups, tuning the chassis for specific tires, and keeping our supply chain open with regards to our most important consumable(tires), affords flexibility and helps to attract racers from different groups/organizations.  In our region, the top folks are using Hoosiers and it cannot be denied that they are a great tire.  However, they are also discarding them after 5 Heat Cycles as their drop-off is so severe when driven to their potential.  I have used Hoosiers for many years and know their (and my) limits very well.  It cannot be denied that they are a great tire, but especially when pinched on a smaller rim as needed to fit the 266 template, they do not last. So we end up with racers running 2-3 sets per weekend and many past and future racers are getting turned off by the tire wars.  In contrast, some people who just want to race, who are not working off a pro budget, and may not care if they are on the podium all the time, have begun to use more consistent, less expensive options.  Others have just moved on from ST sprint racing into the 'Endurance' world (LuckyDog, WRL, WERC, etc.)  Their input was likely not captured by this year's tire survey as they are gone.  I cannot understand the logic behind taking more affordable, consistent tire options away for a class such as ST4 that began life as the more 'grassroots' field as compared to ST3, ST2, or ST1.  If Hoosier going forward will be the spec tire, to keep budgets in check for a hobby that is already seeing it's numbers dwindle as costs continue to rise for everything involved, we should consider limiting the number of sticker sets to be used per weekend.  Or....choose a tire that might not be as fast initially, but lasts longer and stays consistent.  Or, if the goal is to limit choices from where we are at now for compliance simplicity, perhaps offer a few options (i.e. contingency sponsors such as Hoosier, Toyo, Maxxis, Hankook) and keep it at that.  I guess it depends on the goal of the change - I would be curious to know what that goal is and what was the impetus behind the change for 2022.  Either way, looking forward to 2022 and appreciate NASA's efforts in helping to make ST better.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a tire calculation question, I’ve been racing spec z the last few years but now bringing my old ST2 car out of “retirement”. Rules have changed a fair amount since then and my car needs a lot of updated work anyway, so now is a great time to adjust my variables.

Am I understanding correctly my options here, all three scenarios ST2/TT2 compliant?

 

3,000lbs min weight

Mech TB (+0.2)

AWD (-0.3)

275 Toyo RR (+1.9)

Max avg HP = 483

 

3,000lbs min weight

Mech TB (+0.2)

AWD (-0.3)

315 Toyo RR (+1.6)

Max avg HP = 461

 

3,000lbs min weight

Mech TB (+0.2)

AWD (-0.3)

315 Hoosier A7/R7 (+0)

Max avg HP = 370

 

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Looks about right if you used the latest calculator. 

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  • 1 month later...

Greg, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all of these questions. But I did want to probe a lot more on the electronic throttle body.

 

An electronic throttle body has no more potential in lap time than a mechanical one. The difference the electronic one buys you is consistency. We don't penalize Penske shocks over konis, so we've agreed Consistency isn't taxed. 

 

Additionally, You've already stated in this post that ABS isn't taxed because there is wide ranging effectiveness in systems.... Some systems are crap some are great. But here's the thing, good ABS and an electric throttle body with all modern bells and whistles and OEM Bosch programming is the same, just acting in opposite directions. They both buy you fantastic consistency in either braking or acceleration. Yet we're choosing to tax one over the other?

And being more critical, stated reasoning for taxing electric throttle bodies isn't exactly coherent, nor does it follow any logical consistency. Can you please provide as much detail as possible in order to sufficiently illustrate the advantages an electric throttle body that necessitates taxing it? And if the argument is one of stability control, then why aren't we taxing stability control systems instead? Because many electric throttle body cars aren't very sophisticated in their use of the technology, just like many ABS equipped cars from the '90s are trash. 

 

My original assumption was that you wanted to give cable throttle bodies a bonus because they can't be tuned to close the plate to get a flat horsepower curve..... But that problem is what the average power calcs on the dyno sheet is designed to solve. Additionally, I can get a flat power curve on my engine by retarding intake cam timing to redline, which is just as effective as closing the throttle plate. No joke, I can hit peak torque early and Nerf the top end by 40 horsepower with the intake cam timing alone. 

 

 

If the concern is having traction control switches boosting power, then Dyno the car at each setting. Problem solved. 

 

I can't for the life of me understand this rule, despite your prior efforts and explaining it. 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/10/2022 at 10:50 PM, hispanicpanic said:

Greg, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all of these questions. But I did want to probe a lot more on the electronic throttle body.

 

An electronic throttle body has no more potential in lap time than a mechanical one. The difference the electronic one buys you is consistency. We don't penalize Penske shocks over konis, so we've agreed Consistency isn't taxed. 

 

Additionally, You've already stated in this post that ABS isn't taxed because there is wide ranging effectiveness in systems.... Some systems are crap some are great. But here's the thing, good ABS and an electric throttle body with all modern bells and whistles and OEM Bosch programming is the same, just acting in opposite directions. They both buy you fantastic consistency in either braking or acceleration. Yet we're choosing to tax one over the other?

And being more critical, stated reasoning for taxing electric throttle bodies isn't exactly coherent, nor does it follow any logical consistency. Can you please provide as much detail as possible in order to sufficiently illustrate the advantages an electric throttle body that necessitates taxing it? And if the argument is one of stability control, then why aren't we taxing stability control systems instead? Because many electric throttle body cars aren't very sophisticated in their use of the technology, just like many ABS equipped cars from the '90s are trash. 

 

My original assumption was that you wanted to give cable throttle bodies a bonus because they can't be tuned to close the plate to get a flat horsepower curve..... But that problem is what the average power calcs on the dyno sheet is designed to solve. Additionally, I can get a flat power curve on my engine by retarding intake cam timing to redline, which is just as effective as closing the throttle plate. No joke, I can hit peak torque early and Nerf the top end by 40 horsepower with the intake cam timing alone. 

 

 

If the concern is having traction control switches boosting power, then Dyno the car at each setting. Problem solved. 

 

I can't for the life of me understand this rule, despite your prior efforts and explaining it. 

 

I see that NorCal had 7 entries in ST4 from as many as 18 at one point 

also there was a difference of 10 seconds in lap time from 1st to 7th

first place 1:53s

sec 1,55s

Third 1:57s

so not really a race 

does that mean the class is dying or is it just covid?

Edited by esr
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