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Paperwork submissions missing and/or incomplete and/or mislabeled


davidfarmer

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I took a few minutes Friday to look over the VIR ST3 Entries.

 

Out of 16 ST3/TT3 cars, only 1 was fully compliant.   Someone should care about this   

 

** I haven't gone back fully over the database, but I see very few changes in the past few days**

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David, NASA does care about this, and we are working on having our regional officials tighten up their compliance verification protocols.   The identifiers are important to verify that the Dyno information submitted actually goes with the vehicle it was submitted for.

Of course, compliance is the responsibility of the competitors, though. 

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On 3/20/2022 at 6:56 PM, davidfarmer said:

I took a few minutes Friday to look over the VIR ST3 Entries.

 

Out of 16 ST3/TT3 cars, only 1 was fully compliant.   Someone should care about this   

 

** I haven't gone back fully over the database, but I see very few changes in the past few days**

This was the first event of the year. 12 guys prepaid Todd for their dyno cert in Dec to help him refurbish his dyno over the winter. Now it’s spot on. Guys had their paperwork in the paddock. Sure it would have been ideal to have it all uploaded the same day. This isn’t a “gotcha” moment you are trying to make it. Everything will be fine for the next event since we all have the paperwork and can scan it in. I don’t even recall you being there? Everyone who was knows the paperwork was available. 

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Hi David, thank you for bringing this up.  I specifically brought up in my series meeting the need for forms to be correct. I did some spot checks while there and they looked ok. Below is a list Im keeping here so I have notes and as an effort to be totally transparent.  Maybe you can tell me what is incorrect. I see more than one entry as being correct unless youre saying someone hasnt printed out the updated dyno cert form that was released a few days before the event. In that case, it's tough for someone who had already gotten a dyno weeks before to go back to the operator to get their signature. That's a pretty petty complaint in my opinion: 

Vernon McClure: All ok except dyno cert form (rev 10-20). 

Lawrence Gibson: Missing cert form , has RPM and plot

Scott Blair: All ok except dyno cert (rev 1-18) 

Ted Ambrose: 100% ok w/ new dyno cert form 

Roberto Crescencio: All ok except dyno cert form (rev 1-18) 

Steven Laderman:  All ok except dyno cert form ( rev 10-20) 

Michael Fitzpatrick: Missing Cert form 

Adam Chugg: 100% ok 

Eric Wong: 100% ok EDIT: RE-uploaded and put info on pertinent pages.

John Huebner: Not in database but swore I saw him in there as I looked up his weight. EDIT: Info there now.

IN ADDITION to the above, we had DOUBLE impound dynos for top 5 in class for both Sat qualifying AND Sat race. Even to the dismay of people asking why we were impounding them twice in the same day. EVERYTHING checked out as it should have. 

Edited by Racerwong
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3 hours ago, Racerwong said:

Hi David, thank you for bringing this up.  I specifically brought up in my series meeting the need for forms to be correct. I did some spot checks while there and they looked ok. Below is a list Im keeping here so I have notes and as an effort to be totally transparent.  Maybe you can tell me what is incorrect. I see more than one entry as being correct unless youre saying someone hasnt printed out the updated dyno cert form that was released a few days before the event. In that case, it's tough for someone who had already gotten a dyno weeks before to go back to the operator to get their signature. That's a pretty petty complaint in my opinion: 

Vernon McClure: All ok except dyno cert form (rev 10-20). 

Lawrence Gibson: Missing cert form , has RPM and plot

Scott Blair: All ok except dyno cert (rev 1-18) 

Ted Ambrose: 100% ok w/ new dyno cert form 

Roberto Crescencio: All ok except dyno cert form (rev 1-18) 

Steven Laderman:  All ok except dyno cert form ( rev 10-20) 

Michael Fitzpatrick: Missing Cert form 

Adam Chugg: 100% ok 

Eric Wong: 100% ok 

John Huebner: Not in database but swore I saw huim in there as I looked up his weight.

IN ADDITION to the above, we had DOUBLE impound dynos for top 5 in class for both Sat qualifying AND Sat race. Even to the dismay of people asking why we were impounding them twice in the same day. EVERYTHING checked out as it should have. 

Eric,

He is also talking about the identifiers on the Dyno graph and Dyno table.  There is nothing on many of them that shows that the Dyno graph and table actually are from the vehicle on the date that the Dyno Cert form is signed.  (take a look at Eric's)

 

Also, FYI, nobody needs to get the new Dyno Cert Form signed again because they had to make changes to page 3--just update page 3 calculations, and update the dyno table with all of the 250 RPM data points circled or highlighted.

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3 hours ago, mcdonaldsracing said:

Mine was uploaded Wednesday of last week, so not sure why it wouldn’t be showing up?DFC3F930-29F1-4E3D-9E67-1FC87B3FD8B8.thumb.png.aa0961ed0d58c31ff0212d3018680976.png

Yeah, that's strange.  Use the edit link and just re-enter it.  If it doesn't show up again, let us know and I'll have Roman check it out.

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23 minutes ago, Greg G. said:

Yeah, that's strange.  Use the edit link and just re-enter it.  If it doesn't show up again, let us know and I'll have Roman check it out.

I just pushed one through. Take a look and see if it is there. 

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4 minutes ago, Roman V. said:

I just pushed one through. Take a look and see if it is there. 

It's there now.

John, you also need to add identifiers to your Dyno graph and table.  You have your name and the date/time on the Dyno graph, but you are missing vehicle info and dyno operator name.  There are no identifiers on the data table. 

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1 hour ago, Greg G. said:

Eric,

He is also talking about the identifiers on the Dyno graph and Dyno table.  There is nothing on many of them that shows that the Dyno graph and table actually are from the vehicle on the date that the Dyno Cert form is signed.  (take a look at Eric's)

I mean, what's stopping someone from downloading a random file, and putting their own info on the graph/table? or editing via Adobe?  At least for MidAtlantic, we have an impound dyno.  So if youre falsifying your submission, you WILL get caught.  

Regardless, Im having everyone re-submit their stuff with all the pertinent info on the graph/table. 

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33 minutes ago, Racerwong said:

I mean, what's stopping someone from downloading a random file, and putting their own info on the graph/table? or editing via Adobe?  At least for MidAtlantic, we have an impound dyno.  So if youre falsifying your submission, you WILL get caught.  

Regardless, Im having everyone re-submit their stuff with all the pertinent info on the graph/table. 

Of course, the idea is that all of this is supposed to be done at the time of the Dyno, and the Dyno operator is the "witness".  Ultimately, if there is a Dyno at the event, that rules the day.  But, if there isn't....

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3 hours ago, Greg G. said:

Of course, the idea is that all of this is supposed to be done at the time of the Dyno, and the Dyno operator is the "witness".  Ultimately, if there is a Dyno at the event, that rules the day.  But, if there isn't....

Greg,

I went through the trouble of getting my car dyno'd 3x this past weekend.  1x paid, 2x for compliance (qualy and race on the same day!).  If I upload the data points, be sure it's mine.  I'm not paying to give my dyno data to anyone and then risk not being compliant myself.  Any scribble put there doesn't make it more or less legit it's mine.  The fact that there were 10 witnesses and everyone was ok with the results count a lot more.  If you're doubting the legitimacy of our uploads, then I recommend the whole process needs to be re-evaluated to have the Dyno operators upload the information themselves and bypass the drivers.  Or how about having video uploads of the car on the dyno and the runs/file names on the video?

A more fundamental question in my view is: why are we doing PAPER stuff in 2022 still? Why not request the electronic files and then process that data.  At that point you can do all the analytics in the world and catch the outliers.  No 2 dyno runs are the same - auto generated sequential runs are the majority of how these files are created.  Easy to pick max HP from those... auto select 50rpm increments from an excel file. Let's work smart, not hard.  The paper work identifiers being asked isn't really identifying anything.

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Not really sure how writing our names on additional sheets of paper prevents a cheater from changing their tune in the paddock. But sure. I’ll go in and do that…. More importantly … Do we have an established discipline policy? I think these new street tire mods are going to lead to more cheating than we’ve seen in the past. Very easy for guys to claim Toyo running big power in TT and then try to sneak out for 1 of their sessions with Hoosiers on. It practically becomes a babysitting exercise every session. So when one of these guys gets caught, what is the plan? 

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Besides the whole "possible cheating" prevention, I just want to make sure we are all compliant so we arent at the mercy of

a) internet warriors who arent even at the event 

b) borderline unsportsmanlike technical protests from people who are at the event. 

Maybe part of the upload process is a certified stattement w/ penalty of perjury :P. We should at least be able to digitally sign each page that is uploaded?  Is there an easy way to watermark each page with a racer's information?  Maybe a Roman question

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1 hour ago, Racerwong said:

Besides the whole "possible cheating" prevention, I just want to make sure we are all compliant so we arent at the mercy of

a) internet warriors who arent even at the event 

b) borderline unsportsmanlike technical protests from people who are at the event. 

Maybe part of the upload process is a certified stattement w/ penalty of perjury :P. We should at least be able to digitally sign each page that is uploaded?  Is there an easy way to watermark each page with a racer's information?  Maybe a Roman question

Even a watermark can be modified with proper skills. The paper submissions are not immune from this also. ;-)

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1 hour ago, Roman V. said:

Even a watermark can be modified with proper skills. The paper submissions are not immune from this also. ;-)

yea but at least from an admin standpoint, I dont have to get after each and every submission to hand write the info 

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18 hours ago, Racerwong said:

yea but at least from an admin standpoint, I dont have to get after each and every submission to hand write the info 

This is true. We will explorer the complexity of this addition as we would need to process each and every page that is uploaded. 

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when I was dyno'ing cars, I would actually rename the DRF file to the competitors' name/class/car number.  The weather etc shows up automatically on my dynojet.      That at least makes the dyno CHART difficult to fake. 

 

 I didn't bother with the 50rpm readout, although the rules say it must be done and I've yet to see it done

 

NASA-SE always has bad submissions also, but most competitors have given up on ST and just run SU/TTU.  

 

 

Edited by davidfarmer
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On 3/22/2022 at 7:06 PM, daytonars4 said:

Not really sure how writing our names on additional sheets of paper prevents a cheater from changing their tune in the paddock. But sure. I’ll go in and do that…. More importantly … Do we have an established discipline policy? I think these new street tire mods are going to lead to more cheating than we’ve seen in the past. Very easy for guys to claim Toyo running big power in TT and then try to sneak out for 1 of their sessions with Hoosiers on. It practically becomes a babysitting exercise every session. So when one of these guys gets caught, what is the plan? 

First, if I catch someone doing what you stated,  I would expel them from further TT1-6 competition.  It’s not like this is new this year in terms of being able to try that—have had the tore Mod Factors for years. 
 

In regard to the Dyno info, there is a difference between someone who cheats and changes power configuration at the track and someone who “thinks” or “knows” their car is ok on power and decides not to get a precompetition Dyno and use an old one, one from the Internet, borrowed from someone, for whatever reason they don’t want to Dyno (lazy, cost, time)  Especially when there won’t be a Dyno available at the track, drivers should know that their competitors have actually tested their cars and they were proved to be legal—at least at that time.  At least there is a difference in many drivers minds. But, you are correct that both are forms of non-compliance that should be penalized   

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hyperfest List: 

Ben Grambau: All Ok.

Taylor Ramey: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Tim WIlson: 100% ok

Vernon McClure: dyno cert form (rev 10-20). Has name/car info on every page

Lawrence Gibson: cert form (3/22) , has RPM and plot Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Scott Blair: dyno cert (rev 1-18) Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Ted Ambrose: 100% ok w/ new dyno cert form and has name/car info on every page

Roberto Crescencio: dyno cert form (rev 1-18) All ok.

Steven Laderman:  dyno cert form ( rev 10-20) All ok.

Michael Fitzpatrick: Missing Cert form, Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Adam Chugg: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Eric Wong: 100% ok EDIT: RE-uploaded and put info on pertinent pages.

John Huebner: 100% ok

Clayton Eley: dyno cert form (rev 3/22). Driver info on dyno plot. Needs name/info on RPM printout. 

Jeffrey Lewis: Dyno operator signature. Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Eric Magnussen: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Nicholas Stentiford: Needs Everything

Savanna Little: Needs Everything

David Henry: Has Devin Anderson dyno info (old car owner)? Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Mike Whitlatch: dyno cert form (rev 10/20). Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Issac Beekman: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Edited by Racerwong
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10 hours ago, Racerwong said:

Hyperfest List: 

Ben Grambau: All Ok.

Taylor Ramey: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Tim WIlson: Missing RPM printout, Dyno Cert Competitor SignatureNeeds to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Vernon McClure: dyno cert form (rev 10-20). Has name/car info on every page

Lawrence Gibson: cert form (3/22) , has RPM and plot Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Scott Blair: dyno cert (rev 1-18) Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Ted Ambrose: 100% ok w/ new dyno cert form and has name/car info on every page

Roberto Crescencio: dyno cert form (rev 1-18) Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Steven Laderman:  dyno cert form ( rev 10-20) Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Michael Fitzpatrick: Missing Cert form, Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Adam Chugg: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Eric Wong: 100% ok EDIT: RE-uploaded and put info on pertinent pages.

John Huebner: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Clayton Eley: Needs everything 

Jeffrey Lewis: Dyno operator signature. Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Eric Magnussen: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Nicholas Stentiford: Needs Everything

Savanna Little: Needs Everything

David Henry: Has Devin Anderson dyno info? Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Mike Whitlatch: Missing Everything 

Issac Beekman: Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Good Job to Ben, Vernon, Ted, and Eric! 

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David Henry: Has Devin Anderson dyno info? Needs to write name/car info on dyno plot/RPM printout

Hi!  Rookie noob here.  I bought the car from Devin and he still does my track support and helped me with the paperwork upload.  I don't have this original paperwork.  Is it acceptable if I print these out, sign them, and re-upload?

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On 5/5/2022 at 11:43 AM, David Henry said:

Hi!  Rookie noob here.  I bought the car from Devin and he still does my track support and helped me with the paperwork upload.  I don't have this original paperwork.  Is it acceptable if I print these out, sign them, and re-upload?

I would print, then put your name next to his and on all sheets.  Then re-upload.  Thanks!

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Didn’t want anyone thinking my dyno plot wasn’t actually mine, so it has now been notarized as of this morning ??‍♂️?

101C0C30-4FE8-4AA7-9600-3503B22779C8.jpeg

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I was trying to edit my form submission with the edit link in my email but it says the form version has changed.  How do I upload without creating a duplicate record?

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