2023 Proposed ST Rules Revisions--Comment Period through 11-20-22

[hispanicpanic]

1 minute ago, daytonars4 said:

Not sure what else to say. There are flaws in the ST ruleset that give some cars too large of an advantage on the field. Giving a modern car on 335 or 345’s while also letting them get bonus power for being heavy is absurd. That’s what the 2022 rules allow. So this has nothing to do with car development. It’s an issue with the rules being flawed and giving bonuses where they aren’t needed. Now if someone has a 3600lb car on a 275 tire then sure, they need help. But once that car is on 335 or 345 square, the help should end. That’s enough tire to offset the extra weight. A 992 GT3RS (DRS disabled) would get a power bonus for being heavy. That’s absurd. 

 

The original topic of mine you chimed in to add to discussion was BOP.  To that end,  Theres a handful of ways to look at the issue some are bringing up with tire sizes and weight penalties/bonuses.  In the past i was satisfied with the bonuses/penalties, if maybe slightly opposed because at texas tracks, Ballasting up was always the move for faster laptimes. That was proven over and over again in different builds. ST/TT is a power/weight ratio class, and in that spirit, any attempt at rules to curb wide tires on light cars should start with the same thing, Weight/tire area ratios.  Total weight divided by total contact patch area. We can nitpick this and say its much more, because a FWD platform will be closer to the front tires load sensitivity than the rear tires, meaning for an equivalent weight/tire ratio car with a rearward or even weight distribution, it would be at an obvious disadvantage. I believe there's already a modifier for fwd, rwd, and MR so that checks out.  While i'm on this subject, AWD modifier should disappear.  AWD cars have the weight distribution of a FWD car, and provide zero benefit unless its raining or you're pushing serious power. I find it insane in series like SCCA, they limit evos to 245 tires while letting the vettes run 275s in the same class all day long You'll never see an evo/subie win nationals in STU.  To touch on our points above, Weight/tire ratios are a big deal.  Something i think the original weight mod factor was intended to address. I guess people are complaining its not good enough? I think they should stop whining but no one listens to me 

[daytonars4]

@hispanicpanic for starters yes, the AWD mod should have been gone years ago. I ditched an AWD car Bc it was awful in the ST ruleset except when it rained. It only rained 1 weekend. So for that weekend I was a hero going after the overall win in a ST4 car. But every other weekend it was a back marker.

 

The tire to weight ratio seems reasonable. But what we have now is not that. We have 3300lb cars on a 275. Then the rules allow modern 3600lb cars to run 335’s. It’s a 10% increase in weight but a 30% increase in tire size. Then you further compound the problem with a bonus weight mod. So now the 3600lb car has a tire to weight advantage AND a power to weight advantage. How is that balanced? 

[Ale Sensoli]

1 hour ago, daytonars4 said:

Not sure what else to say. There are flaws in the ST ruleset that give some cars too large of an advantage on the field. Giving a modern car on 335 or 345’s while also letting them get bonus power for being heavy is absurd. That’s what the 2022 rules allow. So this has nothing to do with car development. It’s an issue with the rules being flawed and giving bonuses where they aren’t needed. Now if someone has a 3600lb car on a 275 tire then sure, they need help. But once that car is on 335 or 345 square, the help should end. That’s enough tire to offset the extra weight. A 992 GT3RS (DRS disabled) would get a power bonus for being heavy. That’s absurd. 

Would the 315mm "limit" a good compromise?

[hispanicpanic]

24 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

@hispanicpanic for starters yes, the AWD mod should have been gone years ago. I ditched an AWD car Bc it was awful in the ST ruleset except when it rained. It only rained 1 weekend. So for that weekend I was a hero going after the overall win in a ST4 car. But every other weekend it was a back marker.

 

The tire to weight ratio seems reasonable. But what we have now is not that. We have 3300lb cars on a 275. Then the rules allow modern 3600lb cars to run 335’s. It’s a 10% increase in weight but a 30% increase in tire size. Then you further compound the problem with a bonus weight mod. So now the 3600lb car has a tire to weight advantage AND a power to weight advantage. How is that balanced? 

I too abandoned my awd build in TT3. I know the pain.

To play devil's advocate, you can put 335's on an e46 or e36.    You know why most people don't do that? Because they think its slower.   I am one of the few who are quiet on this because i know what the data says....  And its not slower. Ask Terry Fair, he has even more data than i do for 335's on cars they don't belong on. He just put 315s on an FRS and is trying to figure out how to do 335s if he could find fenders to enclose them. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by hispanicpanic

[daytonars4]

6 minutes ago, Ale Sensoli said:

Would the 315mm "limit" a good compromise?

I mean, sure I guess. Bc with the weight mod still being there it negates any PTW net impact on the specific cars people have been talking about in my region. Better off deleting the weight mod than doing this 305 mod. But my guess as some have mentioned is 305 was chosen as a boost to Toyo sales and competitiveness. 

[Ale Sensoli]

1 minute ago, daytonars4 said:

I mean, sure I guess. Bc with the weight mod still being there it negates any PTW net impact on the specific cars people have been talking about in my region. Better off deleting the weight mod than doing this 305 mod. But my guess as some have mentioned is 305 was chosen as a boost to Toyo sales and competitiveness. 

I dont think it will boost TOYO usage. 

The perf of that tire is just miserable. 

People will go 295 hoosier. Or look somewhere else. 

 

So much more risky for 3700lbs going up.to 170mph to 50 mph stay on 295. 

I dont think is "fair" that to punish Hoosier ...drivers are the ones who  need to pay the price. (in safety and additional costs)

 

 

[daytonars4]

28 minutes ago, hispanicpanic said:

I too abandoned my awd build in TT3. I know the pain.

To play devil's advocate, you can put 335's on an e46 or e36.    You know why most people don't do that? Because they think its slower.   I am one of the few who are quiet on this because i know what the data says....  And its not slower. Ask Terry Fair, he has even more data than i do for 335's on cars they don't belong on. He just put 315s on an FRS and is trying to figure out how to do 335s if he could find fenders to enclose them. 

Well you can’t make a blanket statement about slower and faster. In GTS where there are no tire mods, wider is always better. In ST if you are running a 285, it has been the same mod as running a 335. So obviously you would go wider with no negative impact. We had a TT3 guy recently who was running 285’s for years. Threw 315’s on for the first time with no other change and dropped 2 seconds. So if someone else in class can only fit the 285, does it make sense that the 315 would have the same mod? I think even he would have a hard time making that argument since we can see what happened. 
 

I actually went the opposite way this year. Had been running ST3 on 275’s. But I was giving up 5 car lengths on the straights to Camaros on 335’s. So I dropped to a 245. It cut the delta to about 3 car lengths and greatly improved raceability. But that created new problems with lasting a 35 minute race. So screwed 1 way or the other ?

Edited November 18, 2022 by daytonars4

[Eric Jensen]

Full disclosure: My home is now in GLTC but ST4 was where I started.  Many NASA racers have moved for various reasons.  My reasons: big fields, vibes (unbelievable vibes), 1 class, high quality competition.

I still race in my TX region when scheduling allows and want all amateur racing to grow....NASA, GLTC, SCCA, etc. My issue with NASA is too many classes.  We averaged 35 cars an event this year in GLTC.  IMO, NASA should remove HC and GTS at a minimum.  ST classes should be reduced too.  Reduce the classes, build the entrant numbers.  Everyone doesn't need a trophy.  The absolute biggest difference in the current classing is Bosch ABS.  Allowed in ST/TTU-3, not allowed in ST/TT4-6.  So, combine 1-3 into 2 classes and 4-6 into 2 as well.  5 classes in ST.  

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Eric Jensen

[Bryan Heitman]

+100 what Eric said. 

[MarkIsOnFire]

Another vote for striking down the 305+ penalty. Most of the cars in XX2/3 in our region come from the factory with wider tires than that. We should go out and buy smaller wheels to appease who exactly? Looking past myself, I want to see NASA continue to grow, increase the level of competition, and become more successful. NASA needs to be trying to welcome more people into the competitive ranks, not pushing people out with stupid rules. See: SCCA.

Edited November 18, 2022 by MarkIsOnFire

[daytonars4]

23 minutes ago, MarkIsOnFire said:

Another vote for striking down the 305+ penalty. Most of the cars in XX2/3 in our region come from the factory with wider tires than that. We should go out and buy smaller wheels to appease who exactly? NASA needs to be trying to welcome more people into the competitive ranks, not pushing people out with stupid rules. See: SCCA.

The only people that think it’s stupid to differentiate the mod for a car on 285 vs 345 are people on the larger tire. I’m not sure how so many people can pretend that having the identical car on a 285 vs larger doesn’t matter. I literally just watched in the last month a guy go from 2:01’s at VIR to 1:59 by changing from a 285 to 315 in ST3. Why should a class rule care at all about what tires cars come from the factory with? What relevance does that have to determining a BOP?
 

Really the only question should be 305 vs 315 as the cutoff. Claiming that no mod is necessary just looks out of touch to anyone being objective. The current scale is 30mm between the 245 and 275. Yet somehow people believe the 285 to 345 with the same mod is logical? 315 should probably be the next mark for consistency. But this mod while still keeping the weight mod still makes it ineffective if it pushes a 3400lb car on 335’s up to 3600lbs. Bc that car loses .3 but then gains .2 back on weight. So this is pretty much a waste of time. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by daytonars4

[Brian Clarke]

18 hours ago, daytonars4 said:

 I think midatlantic is probably one of the few regions where we see the issue on display weekly in ST3. We have certain modern cars in class that are able to exploit the 2022 rules. They max out the bonus weight mod while also running 335 or 345 square setups. It creates a situation where they are the fastest cars on the straight by 2-3mph AND also have a 30% wider tire than competitors on 275's. But the issue with the new change is those moderns cars that were at 3400lbs didn't max the weight mod yet. So with the .3 mod, they will noW push to 3600lbs which gains them a .2 bonus. Effectively makes this a net .1 mod. Not all that effective of a rule change....  

Who's running 335 square?  I'm not aware of anyone that has made this work , yet

[CTSVR]

7 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

Who's running 335 square?  I'm not aware of anyone that has made this work , yet

I'll be honest, I planned on doing this for 2024, but I will save the money and not if this rule proposal takes place. I told @Emagthe same thing yesterday. 

To your point, I do not know anyone who runs consistently in ST3 in Mid-Atlantic running a 335 or 345 front tire. Most competitors are running a 315. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by CTSVR
Additional info

[daytonars4]

6 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

Who's running 335 square?  I'm not aware of anyone that has made this work , yet

At a minimum the 2021 ST3 National champ does. But others are definitely on 315/335. What’s on your Camaros? 

[Brian Clarke]

8 hours ago, daytonars4 said:

Well you can’t make a blanket statement about slower and faster. In GTS where there are no tire mods, wider is always better. In ST if you are running a 285, it has been the same mod as running a 335. So obviously you would go wider with no negative impact. We had a TT3 guy recently who was running 285’s for years. Threw 315’s on for the first time with no other change and dropped 2 seconds. So if someone else in class can only fit the 285, does it make sense that the 315 would have the same mod? I think even he would have a hard time making that argument since we can see what happened. 

This driver did a lot of mods to the car, made the car better, spent time in the sim, and really worked on data review.  He ran a 2:00 at the final VIR at HF, and a 1:59 in October (better weather all around), so it's not as big as noted just slapping on 315s.  

 

[Brian Clarke]

Just now, daytonars4 said:

At a minimum the 2021 ST3 National champ does. But others are definitely on 315/335. What’s on your Camaros? 

You said weekly in MA it is seen.  The camaros run 315/335 generally.  The 335 front hasn't been fitted so far, requires an almost unsafe level of spacer.

[daytonars4]

3 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

This driver did a lot of mods to the car, made the car better, spent time in the sim, and really worked on data review.  He ran a 2:00 at the final VIR at HF, and a 1:59 in October (better weather all around), so it's not as big as noted just slapping on 315s.  

 

Very odd, Bc I was in the garage next to him when he ran the 1:59 and he said the tires made all the difference. As a matter of fact he even said he would rather switch to a different class for next year due to this mod. So claiming it doesn’t matter, while it matters enough for him to leave is rather strange. You are simply proving my point that the only people who claim it doesn’t matter are the same people exploiting the rules as they currently exist…

Edited November 18, 2022 by daytonars4

[Nick Smither]

The reason stock tire width is important is a) It determines Wheel size and b) It impacts Tire availability.  

I’m not sure why ST3 and ST2 are being lumped together on the Tire width change?  ST2 cars typically accommodate wider tires un-modified and require wider tires to handle the higher power and in many cases weight.

I’m not supporting huge tire size increases, and agree that 335-355 probably needs addressing.

But this change would force me to put 295’s on a ST2 car that is stock 315’s unless I run Toyo’s or take a significant weight or power penalty.

If we want to continue to grow the NASA ST field then cars need to naturally fit into their respective classes, otherwise drivers will look elsewhere.

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Nick Smither
Clarification

[Brian Clarke]

1 minute ago, daytonars4 said:

Very odd, Bc I was in the garage next to him when he ran the 1:59 and he said the tires made all the difference. As a matter of fact he even said he would rather switch to a different class for next year due to this mod. So claiming it doesn’t matter, while it matters enough for him to leave is rather strange. You are simply proving my point that the only people who claim it doesn’t matter are the same people exploiting the rules as they currently exist…

"Exploit" "Rule" you mean following the rules, or was that an unfounded accusation of cheating?

Really Lawrence, you could get faster.  Your off pace and every year it's about rules, dyno, etc.  Maybe take a year off racing and work on getting your speed up?  The mod below 315s won't stand, there are no 305s to buy.  And putting big ST2/ST3 cars on 295s just to fit a rule won't happen.  At the weight of  the cars using 315+ the HP loss isn't going to drop them down to your laptimes.

[Brian Clarke]

5 minutes ago, Nick Smither said:

But this change would force me to put 295’s on a car that is stock 315’s unless I run Toyo’s or take a significant weight or power penalty.

If we want to continue to grow the NASA ST field then cars need to naturally fit into their respective classes, otherwise drivers will look elsewhere.

 

I agree with this in ST2 - non of the small V8s are going to come play in ST2, we don't need baby tires up there.  Seems unsafe to be going smaller than OEM sizes either.

[daytonars4]

Just now, Brian Clarke said:

"Exploit" "Rule" you mean following the rules, or was that an unfounded accusation of cheating?

Really Lawrence, you could get faster.  Your off pace and every year it's about rules, dyno, etc.  Maybe take a year off racing and work on getting your speed up?  The mod below 315s won't stand, there are no 305s to buy.  And putting big ST2/ST3 cars on 295s just to fit a rule won't happen.  At the weight of  the cars using 315+ the HP loss isn't going to drop them down to your laptimes.

Of course, everyone could get faster. That has no relevance to the same car on 285 being faster on 315 or 335. If the same car wouldn’t be faster on a 335 you obviously would just run the 285 instead. You whining about it doesn’t change facts. This is easy to prove. Put Joey back on a 285 and let’s see him match the same 1:59.1. Put your Camaro on a 285 and let’s watch you try to match the pace on 315/335. You can go to your tuner and get him to drop hp so you can keep your 315/335 while taking the .3 mod. Easy solution. ?

[Brian Clarke]

3 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

 Easy solution. ?

There are no easy solutions to driving better.  I have been faster in TT3 trim on Bridgestone Rival 1.5S at summit than you on hoosiers.  I'd be glad to help with data review and coaching if you want to work on things.

These tire changes aren't going to bring the BOP closer, and there is no 305 to buy, so the rule needs to be revised. Almost any car can cut enough metal and throw over fenders on to run 315s, you just won't like how it looks, if you do it on the cheap.

If we push drivers back to 295s, they will just out spend $ the other driver in AERO mods, further barring the entry from new racer to top of the podium.  This sport is already expensive, racing is worse, we need to be stewards of the future.  Will this tire mod make hoosier make a 305?  NO,   Will this tire mod in ST2 reduce Instructor/TT competitors, YES.  So ST rules that effect Instructor/TT Fields should really be cautiously applied and thought of not just from a national level.

 

[daytonars4]

Just now, Brian Clarke said:

There are no easy solutions to driving better.  I have been faster in TT3 trim on Bridgestone Rival 1.5S at summit than you on hoosiers.  I'd be glad to help with data review and coaching if you want to work on things.

These tire changes aren't going to bring the BOP closer, and there is no 305 to buy, so the rule needs to be revised. Almost any car can cut enough metal and throw over fenders on to run 315s, you just won't like how it looks, if you do it on the cheap.

If we push drivers back to 295s, they will just out spend $ the other driver in AERO mods, further barring the entry from new racer to top of the podium.  This sport is already expensive, racing is worse, we need to be stewards of the future.  Will this tire mod make hoosier make a 305?  NO,   Will this tire mod in ST2 reduce Instructor/TT competitors, YES.  So ST rules that effect Instructor/TT Fields should really be cautiously applied and thought of not just from a national level.

 

Once again my pace is irrelevant. But my fastest lap at Summit in ST3 is 1:18.1. I don’t recall seeing you beat that? Prove it or shut down the nonsense. 

[Brian Clarke]

Just now, daytonars4 said:

Once again my pace is irrelevant. But my fastest lap at Summit in ST3 is 1:18.1. I don’t recall seeing you beat that? Prove it or shut down the nonsense. 

Your pretty consistent 1:20 - 1:21.  6-8s and laps off pace at VIR.  I'd suggest getting DJ or Eric Mag to drive your car and see what it's got in it, get some data and then work on that.

Every time there is a rule change post in ST3 you are all over it.  I barely see you at the track though outside of a couple NASA events a year.  I live here, at summit 2-3 times a week.  I'd be glad to help you.

[daytonars4]

2 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

Your pretty consistent 1:20 - 1:21.  6-8s and laps off pace at VIR.  I'd suggest getting DJ or Eric Mag to drive your car and see what it's got in it, get some data and then work on that.

Every time there is a rule change post in ST3 you are all over it.  I barely see you at the track though outside of a couple NASA events a year.  I live here, at summit 2-3 times a week.  I'd be glad to help you.

I can show proof in the NASA database of a 1:18.1. Prove you beat it in TT3… You “live” at Summit. Claim to be an expert. Yet can’t show a faster lap than me. I have GTS2 laps of 1:21.2. So just looking at weekends when I was slow to determine that is my pace is dumb.lol

Edited November 18, 2022 by daytonars4