2023 Proposed ST Rules Revisions--Comment Period through 11-20-22

[TurboJoe]

10 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

Of course, everyone could get faster. That has no relevance to the same car on 285 being faster on 315 or 335. If the same car wouldn’t be faster on a 335 you obviously would just run the 285 instead. You whining about it doesn’t change facts. This is easy to prove. Put Joey back on a 285 and let’s see him match the same 1:59.1. Put your Camaro on a 285 and let’s watch you try to match the pace on 315/335. You can go to your tuner and get him to drop hp so you can keep your 315/335 while taking the .3 mod. Easy solution. ?

Not sure where you're getting info from but I was on 295 R7s not 285s and switched to 315 A7s and went from a 2.01.1 pb to a 1.59.1. At the same time I redid all my front aero and went with a wider track width on the whole car. Yes wider tires made me faster, that is the point. You too can cut up your car and run wider tires. We both run an e9x chassis. 
I get the tire mod rule I just think the size limit should fall onto a size that actually exist outside a Toyo RR. Or just make it simple and ditch the weight mod.
Disclaimer* I am NOT an ST driver and will not be until next year, all my experience is in TT or hot lapping in hpde4.
 

[daytonars4]

2 minutes ago, TurboJoe said:

Not sure where you're getting info from but I was on 295 R7s not 285s and switched to 315 A7s and went from a 2.01.1 pb to a 1.59.1. At the same time I redid all my front aero and went with a wider track width on the whole car. Yes wider tires made me faster, that is the point. You too can cut up your car and run wider tires. We both run an e9x chassis. 
I get the tire mod rule I just think the size limit should fall onto a size that actually exist outside a Toyo RR. Or just make it simple and ditch the weight mod.
Disclaimer* I am NOT an ST driver and will not be until next year, all my experience is in TT or hot lapping in hpde4.
 

Agreed. The mark should be 315. I already said that. You and I can both agree that a 315 is faster than a 295 on the identical car. I also would be more in favor of ditching the weight mod over this tire mod which doesn’t accomplish much. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by daytonars4

[Brian Clarke]

3 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

I can show proof in the NASA database of a 1:18.1. Prove you beat it in TT3…

This is a race , ST post, you want to compare 1 lap wonders or race pace?  I ran a 17.4 in ST3 trim at Summit Testing Prior to VIR, it's on race hero with the SCCA, Blair was there to see it, haven't driven that particular car since it lost the motor at VIR.  My rental SS 1LE in TT3 trim can do high 18s on rival 1.5s, but only a single lap in perfect conditions.  But she'll do 19s all day.

[daytonars4]

3 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

This is a race , ST post, you want to compare 1 lap wonders or race pace?  I ran a 17.4 in ST3 trim at Summit Testing Prior to VIR, it's on race hero with the SCCA, Blair was there to see it, haven't driven that particular car since it lost the motor at VIR.  My rental SS 1LE in TT3 trim can do high 18s on rival 1.5s, but only a single lap in perfect conditions.  But she'll do 19s all day.

I don’t care about what you did in testing. You claimed that you ran faster at Summit on street tires in TT3 than me on Hoosiers. I ran 1:18.1 in ST3. Prove you have an official time faster than that in TT3 or stop talking about my pace. It’s simple. Time to put up or shut up. 
 

Sorry if I don’t trust any of your unofficial laptimes. I watched you try to run TT3 with the street tire mod while sticking Hoosiers on your car. So I guess I have trust issues when it comes to you claiming x pace…

Edited November 18, 2022 by daytonars4

[Brian Clarke]

4 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

Sorry if I don’t trust any of your unofficial laptimes. I watched you try to run TT3 with the street tire mod while sticking Hoosiers on your car. So I guess I have trust issues when it comes to you claiming x pace…

What?  Are you again accusing someone of cheating?

You watched me do what?  

 

[mrgsquared]

Guys - @daytonars4@Brian Clarke maybe lets create a separate thread for laptime comparisons - might actually be a way to support to move to a 315 limit?

[daytonars4]

4 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

What?  Are you again accusing someone of cheating?

You watched me do what?  

 

At VIR, I believe March, you signed up for TT3. Based on your dyno that weekend you should have been on street tires, not Hoosiers. Care to explain? 

[Brian Clarke]

7 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

At VIR, I believe March, you signed up for TT3. Based on your dyno that weekend you should have been on street tires, not Hoosiers. Care to explain? 

You might want to check the results!  It ran the ST2 race which was deemed not to be a race, which I lost the motor, yes it was going ot run on Toyo's but never turned a lap.  The camaro is a tire away from switching classes.

I also have a really big stacker and more than one car at all times.  I think I brought 4 cars that event.

@Greg G. We can't allow blanket accusations of cheating here on the forums that should have been handled at the event, if in fact there was something to claim.  This person claimed to have "seen" me do something, but seems not so.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Brian Clarke

[daytonars4]

1 minute ago, Brian Clarke said:

You might want to check the results!  It ran the ST2 race, which I lost the motor, yes it was going ot run on Toyo's but never turned a lap.  The camaro is a tire away from switching classes.

I also have a really big stacker and more than one car at all times.  I think I brought 4 cars that event.

@Greg G. We can't allow blanket accusations of cheating here on the forums that should have been handled at the event, if in fact there was something to claim

During your first session you were signed up for TT3. That’s what showed on timing and scoring live. When did you switch classes? 

[Brian Clarke]

1 minute ago, daytonars4 said:

During your first session you were signed up for TT3. That’s what showed on timing and scoring live. When did you switch classes? 

Did I turn a single lap in TT3, and did you see any cheating?  This is an official NASA community you are accusing me of cheating on.

[daytonars4]

1 minute ago, Brian Clarke said:

Did I turn a single lap in TT3, and did you see any cheating?  This is an official NASA community you are accusing me of cheating on.

Yes. Timing and scoring showed you in TT3 the first session. Yet you had the Hoosiers on with the tune for street tires. That is the definition of cheating. Maybe we can get a time stamp on when you actually switched to TT2. Was it before someone spotted you on the Hoosiers following the first session. Or did you switch before going on track? This is very easy to verify one way or the other. If I’m wrong I’m wrong… I think we both already know the answer so this back and forth is pointless.

[mrgsquared]

4 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

Did I turn a single lap in TT3, and did you see any cheating?  This is an official NASA community you are accusing me of cheating on.

@daytonars4@Brian Clarke Come on guys, relax. The point has been made about the 315s. Now this back and forth going on about who ran what is taking over the chat, taking us off topic here. Brian, sorry to hear about your motor. There should be no accusations of cheating here. This thread is for all classes and the proposed rules, not who did what when ?

Edited November 18, 2022 by mrgsquared

[Brian Clarke]

19 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

Yes. Timing and scoring showed you in TT3 the first session. Yet you had the Hoosiers on with the tune for street tires. That is the definition of cheating. Maybe we can get a time stamp on when you actually switched to TT2. Was it before someone spotted you on the Hoosiers following the first session. Or did you switch before going on track? This is very easy to verify one way or the other. If I’m wrong I’m wrong… I think we both already know the answer so this back and forth is pointless.

There is no race hero or official results that show me in TT3 for all of '22 - This is a 100% unfounded accusation and you should be punished for even openly attempting to discredit me here.

 

@Greg G. this is rediculous

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Brian Clarke

[Bryan Heitman]

Tires are hot topic! Since I am not competitive in ST4 and I can't fit in ST5 due to sequential and I want to run just to run and keep costs down I guess I need to be ST3 with my homologated BFG tire? I was hoping the rules would allow my underclassed ST4 car to just run the tire that comes on the car. The hoosier is the same price but too wide for the car and since I run other events I don't really want to maintain a set of tires for every series.

159 (peak) whp, 2510 pounds (w/ driver)

I am just running for experience so doesn't really matter what place I finish/qualify.

I would also consider running 200tw in ST5 if rules were modified for that since I also run GLTC.

[Dasblitzauto]

Hi Guys alot of good points are being made but across ALL of ST. I feel a separate chat for each ST group should be made. There are many discussions going on at once which makes things hard to follow and good points may get missed. @Greg G.is there anyway of doing this is a more organized fashion?

Michael Natilli

#727 ST5 NE Region

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Dasblitzauto

[DJ Fitzpatrick]

Unfortunately the 315 penalty is a red herring.

There is a current issue with heavy cars and power to weight classing.   The mod factor for weight means that these moderns cars are running at similar (or better) power to weight AND tire to weight metrics than the current field. We also know that power overcomes drag (and these are draggy cars with wings in st1-3).  So we have a situation where a heavy car with big tires, has better tire to weight (should have more grip in corners) and has the power (not even talking p/w, just power) to overcome drag unlike the lighter cars with less power.  So the higher power/higher weight cars are faster everywhere.

The problem here is, do we try to equalize the older less powerful/weight cars or accept that modern/heavier cars are the right play?  I am not sure the answer here for the rules, but if there isn't something done; I know we will lose the lighter weight/lower horsepower cars here in the mid-atlantic.  Looking at current records is a misnomer with different driver skills. The new heavier weight crowd (in MA) has less experience and is still building time (2023 is going to be some records dropped!).

[daytonars4]

4 minutes ago, Brian Clarke said:

 I ran a corvette in TTU.  There is no race hero or official results that show me in TT3 for all of '22 - This is a 100% unfounded accusation and you should be punished for even openly attempting to discredit me here.

My camaro blew up in the dust off race and never turned a ST2 lap, or another lap all summer for that matter.

@Greg G. this is rediculous

 

This is my last time replying to you Bc it has nothing to do with this thread. Live timing and scoring showed you in TT3 the first session at VIR. That means you signed up for TT3 that weekend. You refuse to answer the question about when you switched to TT2 or TTU. Whether it was before or after your first session when someone saw you Hoosiers while posting a 1:59 in TT3. I have nothing further to add.  

[Brian Clarke]

5 minutes ago, daytonars4 said:

This is my last time replying to you Bc it has nothing to do with this thread. Live timing and scoring showed you in TT3 the first session at VIR. That means you signed up for TT3 that weekend. You refuse to answer the question about when you switched to TT2 or TTU. Whether it was before or after your first session when someone saw you Hoosiers while posting a 1:59 in TT3. I have nothing further to add.  

you watched me, now it's someone saw? 

 

@Greg G. this guy needs to be suspended.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Brian Clarke

[Scott B.]

Please let's get back on track.

Based on all comments I've read in this thread regarding the ST2/ST3 subject, I would sum up the majority view is as follows:

ST2: no tire penalty

ST3: greater than 315 = -0.3

[Greg G.]

Hi Folks,

Looks like one of the NASA Officials locked this thread down after it went off topic and my request for civil and constructive was forgotten. 

Anyway, I haven't had a chance to review most of this yet, or some of the comments on FB, which I'll look at later tonight, but I wanted to let you know that we (NASA National) did decide that we agree with the commenters that tire size up to 315 would be more appropriate than 305.  As of now, it will be for both ST2 and ST3.  I'll have more in depth responses to all of the above later, and I'll unlock the thread now if we can go back to objective and/or positive since it looks like "civil and constructive" was too big an ask. ?

[Nick Smither]

Thank you for listening and responding.

315 makes a lot of sense.  Most ST2 and almost all ST3 cars need significant modifications to run 335 or larger.  So a weight modifier is appropriate.

Thanks again!

[rsotak]

So how were the aero penalties established for st4?  It seems like the penalties may not be enough at -0.3 for the benefit that each piece will give.  Seems like it should start out higher to not overdo hall the current cars in the class.

 

Also the removal of the mechanical throttle body bonus for FI cars seems a little strange.  What benefit do FI cars have over NA in this arena?  Why would supercharged cars be treated the same as turbo cars when the ability to control boost isn’t the same

[Fair]

12 hours ago, hispanicpanic said:

To play devil's advocate, you can put 335's on an e46 or e36.    You know why most people don't do that? Because they think its slower.   I am one of the few who are quiet on this because i know what the data says....  And its not slower. Ask Terry Fair, he has even more data than i do for 335's on cars they don't belong on. He just put 315s on an FRS and is trying to figure out how to do 335s if he could find fenders to enclose them. 

He's right - you can put "335s" or even 345s on anything, if you have the right skills...

We have used this "wider tires on anything" gambit for decades. Below was my 2550 pound E36 on 315mm Hoosiers in 2008

If NASA handicaps tires with 305+ sizes, it might not work out like they had hoped. Sure, the "little cars" can do better, especially if the "big cars" all leave.

Tire-to-weight ratio is what is key here. Nobody writing class rules seems to understand this, and it is BAFFLING. Physics is real, and physics matters.

And yes, even a 2600 pound FRS with 160 whp got a LOT faster (2,5 sec drop at MSR Cresson 1.7 CCW) just going from 215s to 315s...

And it now has 335s and a big stroker LS V8 - that bolts in. #WidePowerBand #BigTiresMatter

NASA Needs to remember - if they neuter the fast cars too much over this silly 305-315mm penalty, other series beckon. We have FOUR active Time Trial series in our area. I've been running TT with NASA since 2006, but I keep finding other series to run with... NASA will always hold a place in my heart, but it is hardly the only TT option.

Have a nice weekend!

Edited November 18, 2022 by Fair

[ssmith]

17 minutes ago, Fair said:

Tire-to-weight ratio is what is key here. Nobody writing class rules seems to understand this, and it is BAFFLING. Physics is real, and physics matters.

ST gives a + mod for weight and a - mod for tire size, somewhat balancing each other out.  The 305-315 tire size mod does not exist in a vacuum simply to punish heavy cars.  Are you advocating instead that there should be a limit on tire size by weight AND the weight and tire mods be zeroed out?

 

[daytonars4]

2 minutes ago, ssmith said:

ST gives a + mod for weight and a - mod for tire size, somewhat balancing each other out.  The 305-315 tire size mod does not exist in a vacuum simply to punish heavy cars.  Are you advocating instead that there should be a limit on tire size by weight AND the weight and tire mods be zeroed out?

 

This guy gets it. With how the rules are setup it undermines the goal of the change. You are forcing the 3400lb 335mm car to 3600lbs where it gets the .2 bonus. May as well just leave the tire mod alone and delete the weight mod. It’s more effective to reaching the goal. The heavier car already gets the benefit of having more hp, so why compound that with even more hp.