New undertakings for GPC

[Jaymz]

Bob,

I just signed up too in VVCx.

 

James

[ledfoot2]

I plan on being there in GPC-1 or 2 or VVC1, whichever ends up beingthe lowest class!

[Z06RACER]

James...GREAT!!!

I think we need to get as many guys as we can to sign up as soon as possible so we at least have a class>>>what ever the hell we call it!!!

[TexaST-1]

I just had a very lengthy and productive call with Greg.

 

There will be a GPC-1 and GPC-2 at the Nationals. GPC-1 being the "More" developed level.

 

If your car is very close to T1 trim it will fall into GPC-2. If you are above that you will be in GPC-1. Above that we are working on.

 

Greg and I are quickly working on a good resolution that will work for the majority of racers in our group.

[ledfoot2]

Hey Kevin,

So this means I should register for the MSR event in GPC2? Just let me know. I am starting up the new motor tonight so, we will see tonight if I a mgoing to make it or not.

[TexaST-1]

I think that shouldn't be the plan. We should make the switch around from GPC 1 to 2 when we adopt the final rules.

[ledfoot2]

Cool. I'll just register as I had been.....GPC-1.

[TexaST-1]

Well, What about the new motor?

[FrankBarba]

Texas....how do you want me to register for the Nats????

[TexaST-1]

I'll get with Greg to check.

 

I think GPC-1, Nationals doesn't recognize the class yet.

[ledfoot2]

My motor, which has just sputtered so far, is just a LS-1 like the one it replaced, so no power increase.

[Greg G.]

Texas....how do you want me to register for the Nats????

Frank,

If you want to register now to have your car number on the list since it appears that number assignments are to be first come, first served, I think that the best thing to do at this time is just sign up for SU. There will be no problem changing your class designation to your new class once the rules are approved. And, I believe that the new classes will still end up in the same "fast" run Group D that is currently listed as SU,VVX, and ASC. Until we have an approved set of National rules, we can't put the classes up on the registration pages. Also, after we have the rules completed/approved, we will be contacting everyone that registered under SU or VVX to see if they want to be switched to the new classes.

[Z06RACER]

Okay..

I assume everybody here is talking racing not TT.

Kevin...why would we sign up for SU and not VVC. No vette...I don't care how extreme, can compete in SU. If we don't have enough guys sign up for VVC they will exclude the class and move anybody who still wants to run into SU.....a losing proposition. If everyone signs up for VVC and you are fortunate enough to get the rules approved for GPC they will let us change our entries to GPC.

I know James & I have already signed up for VVCx. I think we should all sign up for that and make sure we have a class to run in, in the event Kevin is unsuccessful in getting the rules passed.

[Greg G.]

Okay..

I assume everybody here is talking racing not TT.

Kevin...why would we sign up for SU and not VVC. No vette...I don't care how extreme, can compete in SU. If we don't have enough guys sign up for VVC they will exclude the class and move anybody who still wants to run into SU.....a losing proposition. If everyone signs up for VVC and you are fortunate enough to get the rules approved for GPC they will let us change our entries to GPC.

I know James & I have already signed up for VVCx. I think we should all sign up for that and make sure we have a class to run in, in the event Kevin is unsuccessful in getting the rules passed.

 

Guys, this is no longer about "Kevin's success" in getting rules passed. I am one of few NASA National Officials, and I'm telling you that there will be two classes between PTA and SU that most of you can run your production cars in--certainly all of the cars prepped to the T1 level, and most of the cars prepped a fair amount more than that. Cars prepped to the GT1 level, sports racers, and even some extreme production cars will still be in SU. I suggested to sign up for SU, because SU will probably not have a problem getting the 4 cars needed to have their class (even when you guys bail out into the new classes). However, I didn't want any (if there are any left after the new classes are approved) of the VVX guys to think that their class has more than 4 drivers and is a done deal, to then have you guys switch and leave them disappointed. I would hope that all VVX drivers decide to switch to the new classes this year to provide the biggest fields possible for these classes. And when you are deciding how to prep your cars for the Championships, you might also consider whether you think that NASA would develop these two new classes that directly compete with VVX, and then have both sets of classes next year?

[Z06RACER]

it was my impression that the GPC class was being developed to REPLACE what appears to be the dead class of VVC...not add an additional class. Lord knows there are too many classes in NASA now. That is why I thought we should all sign up for VVC...that way if it gets replaced by GPC all the competitors signed up for VVC will be moved to the new class and noone will be left out.

I AM SOOOO CONFUSED

[Greg G.]

it was my impression that the GPC class was being developed to REPLACE what appears to be the dead class of VVC...not add an additional class. Lord knows there are too many classes in NASA now. That is why I thought we should all sign up for VVC...that way if it gets replaced by GPC all the competitors signed up for VVC will be moved to the new class and noone will be left out.

I AM SOOOO CONFUSED

Sorry if I'm confusing you. Technically, at this point, NASA is developing these two new National classes for 2006. (It could expand to 3 in future years if the demand is huge, but for now it's two). There has not been an official decision to remove/revoke the VVX rules yet in 2006; however, it is expected that once we develop these classes, that the former VVX guys will now have a larger group to race against, and that they will see the benefits of that, and migrate on their own. NASA is in agreement with you that there are too many classes currently for the number of racers we have, and at this time, the plan is to build the PT/GPC/SU structure for the 2006 season, and find the kinks in this new system of classification and rules for racing. Then NASA will make any necessary adjustments for 2007 early enough to give everyone plenty of time to prep their cars for their PT/GPC 2007 season. There will be some current NASA classes that will not be around in 2007, but the cars in those classes will ultimately have bigger and better fields to compete against in their new classes. There have been no official decisions on which classes those may be, but clearly VVX is a prime candidate as you mentioned. This is really a flux year for NASA. We are trying some new ideas and programs that seem to have great potential for attracting drivers from inside NASA as well as from outside of NASA. If the amount of e-mail that I've been getting about our new classes from non-NASA racers is any indication, 2007 should be a great year for all of us looking for more and better competition.

[Jaymz]

Cars prepped to the GT1 level, sports racers, and even some extreme production cars will still be in SU.

 

That is the biggest issue. My car will be classed in SU as will Z06Racers. Neither of our cars can compete with a Sports racer or a GT1 car. You are leaving us with no place for a competitive race.

[Greg G.]

Cars prepped to the GT1 level, sports racers, and even some extreme production cars will still be in SU.

 

That is the biggest issue. My car will be classed in SU as will Z06Racers. Neither of our cars can compete with a Sports racer or a GT1 car. You are leaving us with no place for a competitive race.

Who says? How do you know that? We haven't even finished deciding these issues yet. Why don't you use the on-line classifier for TT at http://nasa-tt.com/TT_Classer (ignore what the classer says the results are), and send me a screen shot of the final summary that lists all of your mods and the points that they have been assessed? That could be useful. Also feel free to send me your lap times at Mid-Ohio or Road Atlanta if you have any. In fact, this would be an opportunity for all of you to get involved with the process we are going through. Anyone that wants their car to be taken into account (at least to some degree), go ahead and do the same, and e-mail me the screen shot. Will 100% of you guys be happy with the results? No. That never happens when you write racing rules. But, we shoot for the highest possible percentage of drivers and potential drivers that would be satisfied with the rules.

 

As well, some of you guys may need to realize that we must classify cars based on the car's potential (i.e. if Boris Said or Scott Prewitt were driving it), not how fast or slow that you can get the car to go (we do this with all cars, not just GPC). This isn't bracket racing or handicap bowling. So, if you have an 800 hp monster machine, with better suspension, aero, chassis stiffening, tires, brakes, and weight reduction than a T1 car, yet your times are slower than the fastest T1 times, then you need to spend more time in the seat.

[Z06RACER]

Greg....

James is right on about SU. You can hang a boat anchor on a CSR or a GT1 car and we couldn't get to within 8 seconds a lap of those cars. Even the guys who SUCK in those cars will blow us away. I know, I have raced my T1 car against them. At the Road Atlanta National Chris Ingle & Phil Croyle (two of the best T1 drivers in the country) got Qualifying laps in the high 1.33's low 1.34, race laps in the 1.35's. These are podium national drivers. The CSR's ran in the 1.24's and the GT1's about the same.

The car I signed up to do the National with is a WC clone from Canada. It has a wing, airdam, 500hp etc and slicks. Only 2 classes you can run slicks>>>>VVCx or SU.

I am going to run the 5 SE events in SU to qualify for the Nationals. I am going to run VVCx at the Nationals and hope 2 more guys besides James and myself sign up so we have a race. If you get another class by then and all the guys signed up for VVC want to switch, i will do so as well.

I think to try and get a new "group" up and running and everyone across the country aware of it before the Nationals will only confuse an already confusing situation even more>>>but so be it.

I look forward to racing and meeting all you guys in September...whatever group we are in.

[ledfoot2]

Here is how the time trial classer put my car:

 

Your car: Chevrolet Corvette C5 Start Over

Your base class is TTB.

 

Your mods are as follows:

 

DOT-approved R-compound "slick" tires (ex. Hoosier R3S05, Kumho Ecsta V710, etc) for 7 points.

Tire width increased from OEM by : more than 41 mm for 3 points.

Non-OEM driver seat (Free because of other mods).

Removal of passenger front seat and seat belts for 2 points.

Removal of rear carpet, floor padding, floor/door sill trim, panels, and/or sound deadening material for 1 point.

Removal of front carpet, padding, floor console, floor/door sill trim, panels (other than door panels), and/or sound deadening material for 1 point.

Removal of dashboard, instrument panel, brackets, and/or glove box for 1 point.

Removal of passenger front door panel, latches, and/or window/mechanisms for 1 point.

Removal of driver front door panel, latches, and/or window/mechanisms (Free because of other mods).

Heater core and/or heater blower/fan removal for 1 point.

Non-OEM camshaft for 4 points.

Modification of the OEM air box, air filter location, air piping to the turbo/supercharger/throttle body/carburetor for 1 point.

Aftermarket or modified header for 2 points.

Non-OEM or modified complete exhaust system downstream from the header, exhaust manifold, or turbo. (does not include catalytic converter removal/upgrade) for 2 points.

Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s) for 1 point.

Non-OEM or modified coil springs, leaf springs, or torsion bars for 2 points.

Non-OEM, non-adjustable shocks/struts for 2 points.

Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars ("sway" bars- front, rear, or both - may have spherical joints and polyurethane bushings on the end links) for 2 points.

Non-OEM brake pads for 1 point.

Car equipped with a roll cage.

 

NASCAR-style roll cage door bars.

 

Your 34 modification points puts you in TTA.

 

 

My car is pretty much T-1 prepared with a cam and headers.

[TexaST-1]

Bob, What about running DOTs and staying 1 class below SU? I think I know the car you have. It probably would qualify for GPC-1 under the new terms and rules.

 

Rayman,

 

I think you mave have missed a few points and added too many in other areas. I am sure you would come outs points ahead to use the alternate weight method. Use a base curb weight of 3,118.

 

A base T1 has over 45 points and some at nearly 50. Your car may not be quite maxed at T1 legal mods either.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Guest

[ryan0]

As well, some of you guys may need to realize that we must classify cars based on the car's potential (i.e. if Boris Said or Scott Prewitt were driving it), not how fast or slow that you can get the car to go (we do this with all cars, not just GPC). This isn't bracket racing or handicap bowling.

 

 

hahaha... awesome.. needed to be said.. nice work..

 

i'll just be in vvc until the dust settles.

[FrankBarba]

You will have a race at Nationals in V V C x. I will sign up for this class.

Texas the tires leadfoot listed are DOT's.

[TexaST-1]

Frank,

 

Bob is Bob Mayer aka Z06 Racer and Rayman is Rayman Kinman aka ledfoot2

 

Rayman lives in Texas and races on DOT's and Bob is in FL or GA and is currently running on Slicks.

[Greg G.]

Greg....

James is right on about SU. You can hang a boat anchor on a CSR or a GT1 car and we couldn't get to within 8 seconds a lap of those cars. Even the guys who SUCK in those cars will blow us away. I know, I have raced my T1 car against them. At the Road Atlanta National Chris Ingle & Phil Croyle (two of the best T1 drivers in the country) got Qualifying laps in the high 1.33's low 1.34, race laps in the 1.35's. These are podium national drivers. The CSR's ran in the 1.24's and the GT1's about the same.

The car I signed up to do the National with is a WC clone from Canada. It has a wing, airdam, 500hp etc and slicks. Only 2 classes you can run slicks>>>>VVCx or SU.

 

Bob,

All of your points are well taken, and we are basically on the same page on most of this. The times you listed are correct, and are coincidentally almost exactly the same for Road Atlanta. So, assuming that we agree that the GPC2 class should max. out with a fully prepped T1 car (or I should say, a car of equal caliber to a fully prepped T1 car), and those CSR's, DSR's, GT1's, Prototypes, and some others like Porsche GT3 RS's and some 800+ hp Porsche's that I've seen in action, should be competitive with each other in SU, then the question is how to define the GPC1 class limits. There is about an 8-10 second per lap gap between the two groups listed above (in the hands of the best Pro racers), so it would seem that we need a class that would potentially max out somewhere between them in the form of GPC 1.

 

We have not decided whether to exclude or allow non-DOT slicks in GPC1 yet. The "problem" is that once you introduce them, unless there is a way to offset their 3-4 second/lap benefit for those guys that don't have them, you either end up with a class that is unfair, or a potential big expense for every racer that wants to be competitive because it then requires slicks (make that new slicks at each event). Under some racing programs, one might consider trying to hamstring those cars in some fashion with restrictor plates or weight penalties. In our new racing program, we could potentially allow them, but charge an appropriate number of points for them, which could send highly prepped cars on slicks back to your old friend, SU. We have some very well prepped, still full tub and silhouette production cars, out here on the Left Coast that could hurt most GT1 cars if they ran on slicks. Would it really make anyone feel any better to get smoked by one of these cars in GPC1 than in SU? My point is that we need to make trade-offs sometimes. It wouldn't help you or anyone if we make a GPC1 class that allows in production cars that are as fast as GT1's (SU). And, it doesn't help anyone to have a class with only 2-4 drivers.

 

I am still very curious as to how many points your car has under the current points assessment system, as well as your current wt/hp ratio?