Jump to content
IHBObry

Organizer Supplied Stagenotes 2

Recommended Posts

IHBObry

Not trying to start a fight, just what Martin & I experianced.

 

We used the supplied notes. We did recce (3 passes) and made very minor changes for Benton Hollow/Midway and East Hill/Cutler. At speed they flowed perfect for us. Even in the fog with no sight lines to comfirm they where SPOT ON. Video & our time confirms it.

 

We did not Recce M. Weiden or Blind Pond having run them before in the fall and wanting to concentrate on the bulk mileage in the new stages. Again, Ivan's supplied notes where perfect for us on these stages @ speed including the added section to Blind Pond we did not do @ speed last fall (only as part of a transit and let me tell you, it was much more fun this time).

 

The only adjustment we had to make was to learn a few of his notation meanings which was very easy, simpler than Jemba. Ivan's notes described what the road looked like @ speed. Look @ the Jemba for M. Weiden and Blind Pond from this past fall, they only described the road, Ivans notes included more detail on M. Weiden when needed (not just 600 over crest) and less when it was correct to do so.

 

I'd use Ivan's notes anytime.

 

Bernie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TurboBoostedAWD

Ivans notes didn't work for us and was up till 2AM each morning writing our own pacenotes.

 

The major problems:

 

1. Cautions identified after the instructions they were supposed to warn about. Place "!", "!!", "!!!" before the hazardous instruction.

 

2. The length of curves (long, very long) is written before the direction (Left or Right) or degree (1-6). The more important info to know first coming into a curve is agrueably either the direction (to know which side of the road to set the car up on) or the degree (to know how much braking is needed and speed to carry thru curve). The least important is the length of the curve which should be noted last.

 

3. No underlined instructions or references to linked instructions to be read together other than 'into' and 'and'. Underline multiple instructions that codriver should read as a single instruction.

 

4. Notes were written without line or pagebreaks. Worst case example: Midway Stage, page3, first instruction is "into L2".

 

5. Straight lengths and curve degrees were inconsistant. Ivan wrote the notes on 3 different days and seemed to be in a different mood each. Distances were often noted shorter than actual, most apparent on the super-highway section of the 16 mile stages and other long straights.

 

Nit-Picking:

 

1. Junctions not noted as 'turns'. Having a road intersection noted as a turn gives the driver much more detail of what to expect. Ivan just noted them as curves and included a tulip and milage reference. The better choice is to note "turn L3" to indicate a 90 degree left onto a sideroad, "turn T Right" to indicate a 90 degree right like the one Saturday afternoon where overshooting it would have put you in a small pond. There was also a 'Y' junction on Benton Hollow that would have been better noted 'turn R5 @ Y' or 'turn R5 @ jct' or simply 'turn R5'.

 

2. There was much more 'bumps' and rough than noted and serveral instances of 'loose' not mentioned.

 

3. No 'brake' instruction indicating a need to slow for a tight curve following a period of top gear driving. Jemba authors include them when important. Since we wrote our own pace notes, I included 'brake @ mailbox', 'brake @ tree left',... which obviously oganizer supplied notes can't do but noting brake following a high speed section to indicate the need to substantially slow is important.

 

4. 'Off camber' never noted. We included 3-4 times.

 

5. 'Opens' never noted. We can go faster when we know a curve opens.

 

6.'Tightens' noted inconsistantally. Also, no references for cases of extreme tightening (L5>2). There were a couple instances of these.

 

7. 'Late' never noted to indicate curves that begin very open with apex a short distance further down the road. We included twice.

 

8. There were several instances that 'keepL ', 'keepR', or 'keepC' should have been noted for safety reasons but since Ivan was noting others 'absolute' and 'fast', other crests could have been noted including this info as well. We included them maybe 2 dozen times.

 

If the notes supplied addressed these issues, it would better teach novice teams how to better prepare their own pacenotes.

 

The road book was very nicely prepared in FIA format minus the distinction for road surface and the only error I found was the partial distance for instruction15 on page 53 of Day2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
starion887

Hi Bernie,

 

Thanks for the note and update; sounds like you liked these. How was the Red Bull this year?

 

Dave,

 

I am not going to get into this too much, but your major items 1-3 seem to me to be more format issues that one can adjust to, not any sort of major issue; item 4 as described is not clear enough for me to understand; and item 5 is the only one in your list that I would consider serious. As for the nit-picks, some are oriented towards pacenotes. As I understand it, stage notes are not meant to be pace notes so there seems to be some confusion as to what these are meant to be. But, I ususally just use the routebook and drive what I see, so I guess I would not know any better!

 

Regards, and congrats to both of you on good finishes,

Mark B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ColinB

Some observations from someone who only got to run 4.2 miles on the pacenotes:

 

-The notes were written so close together there was no way to make changes. If you guys are going to do pre-printed pacenotes you need to leave space for modifications/etc.

-Because of the prior comment we had to re-write all the notes to put the cautions/etc where we would normally expect them and to fix some distances that we disagreed with. It was disappointing that the pacenotes were not consistent with the way that prior stage notes had been made, and I think that this is to big of a "curve ball" at the last minute to expect the majority of the teams to deal with.

-Because of the prior comment (re-write notes) the 2 pass recce was an impossible itinerary if the speed limit was followed. From what I saw Kristie and I were one of few following the speed limit (some were driving a proper racing line in their service truck at 60+ mph). Based on my knowledge of the schedule and some other conversations that I had it seemed that recce was actually a "free for all" with no real schedule or speed limit enforced.

-Overall the supplied notes were a good base, we didn't change as much as I would have expected. Once these details are cleaned up they would be much more usable as supplied.

 

I will say that I hope the rest of the NASA ESRC doesn't follow to use this format. For the majority of us it already costs "too much" to do an event and the full day of recce only added to the cost. I understand the goal and can see some utility, but at some point we all need to make a cost/benefit analysis and this one was borderline at best.

 

-C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anders Green
I will say that I hope the rest of the NASA ESRC doesn't follow to use this format. For the majority of us it already costs "too much" to do an event and the full day of recce only added to the cost. I understand the goal and can see some utility, but at some point we all need to make a cost/benefit analysis and this one was borderline at best.

 

In talking to the other ESRC organizers, none are persuing this sort of plan. However, recce seems fairly standard for the USRC events, which doesn't seem so crazy. I agree that I would like to remain no-recce for ESRC events.

 

I'm not saying my position will never change, but I think it's the best fit for the current situation and the next few years.

 

Anders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alex K

It was my first event, so my comments aren't worth much, but we changed enough things that my co-driver had to transpose his notes to a new notebook. I would not have gone Colin's route of re-writing on stage due to the time constraints (I insisted on following both the official schedule and speed limit), but we ended up with an unuseable book of scribbles over Ivan's writing.

 

My co-driver thought that the line and page breaks were off and there was simply too much on the page. I adjusted the notes for being in a slower car (i.e. "like heck that's a jump for us!" ) and I dropped the details I didn't want (like crests that I could see from the top of the previous crest). We changed the distances a bit, there were a few 50s that were really "and" as well as a few 100s that were really 200s, and we added cautions where a newbie like me might need them.

 

So now I think I'm spoiled by recce. I would not want to use hand generated notes without recce, but I don't think I would have crashed if I had to use Ivan's notes without recce.

 

Don't forget, they are course notes, NOT pace notes. I nearly pooped my fire suit on Saturday when I discovered that a L4 is really different on the second pass when you keep it pinned to the floor through the crests and minor turns for the mile before it! I agree that intersections should be marked "TURN L3," but even without recce you could have used the route book or the tulip in the notes and wrote that in yourself.

 

What ever happens with notes, the person making the standard set always has to remember that they are course notes, not pace notes. An L5 is an L5 is an L5, anything else won't work. Put-putting along in my 1.8L we don't want 'pace notes' for head of the pack speeds, and crew flying along in a WRX rocket shouldn't want someone else assuming a certian pace when they wrote the notes.

 

I had a blast. The notes came to me a lot easier than I thought they would, and everything fit together pretty well. There were a few sections where there were too many notes for me, but I like to memorize geography so I just committed those areas to memory when we did recce. The only thing that really bugged me was that I stupidly forgot to examine the R3 onto gravel on the end of Mattias Wieden, so I kept slowing down too much. But finishing was the goal, so I'll live!

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
don kennedy

Thanks, Anders. From those of us that have only so much vacation time and money. In my case, it's much more cost effective to pay for a set of standardized Jemba notes than to even think about doing recee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lurchie

Dave is just trying to offer constructive criticism.

 

Mark, offering a "caution" AFTER the thing you are supposed to be slowing for doesn't make much sense, does it? Don't you want to know about it before you arrive at "non-caution" speed?

 

Not a big deal. Just personal preference, I guess.

 

Some portions of the route we re-wrote entirely. Most of it was just modified.

 

I added a lot of "bumps" and "ruf" because my car's torque steer can turn a straight road into a tank slapper in a heartbeat if you don't ease off on the loud pedal over the bumps. Probly not an issue for everyone, so they may not have needed that.

 

I will say this. 1) I now love tarmac rallies. 2) I do not think I will ever participate in one that does not provide recce. Just too dangerous to use someone elses notes.

 

In general, I find recce to be cumbersome, tedious, and a major PITA when Jemba does such a decent job on gravel. I would not be able to commit to a full recce championshio. But I would definitely do recce for anything on pavement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ivan Orisek

Dear TurboBoosted:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

<1. Cautions identified after the instructions they were supposed to warn

 

<2. The length of curves (long, very long)

 

Etc., etc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Most of this is a self-serving nosense. When you grow up and wean

yourself off the terminology and concepts you learned with Jemba, you

will find that there are different and better ways. Also, there would have

been plenty of rewriting of Jemba notes had they been used by serious

crews in serious reconnaissance.

 

For now, you are holding yourself out for an expert just because you

had the opportunity in the past to drive Arne around.

 

Just a few examples where you are wrong:

 

1. In pacenoting, you do not measure straights with a tripmeter. This

is Jemba nonsense. The driver simply calls out the distance and whatever

he calls it that is what it is. It actually does not make any difference what

the driver thinks the distance is. (In reference to your previous post,

this is how it was done 35 years ago in Czechoslovakia and this is how

this is done now in the World Rally Championship - I have it on good

authority.)

 

2. Telling the driver to brake is the same nonsense as telling him there

is a crest: He is acutely aware of both. The only time this is of any value

is when the driver picks a particular, specific braking point after a very

long high-speed straight. This is a high science of pacenoting rarely

applicable at this level.

 

3. It took me some time to persuade Arne that he needed to distinguish

between a regular R4 corner and a R4 at a junction. He originally brought

notes with no indication of any difference and no indication

of any milestones or junctions. As a solution he picked "turn R4" as many

do.

 

Why do you think we have little tulips next to an instruction with mileage

attached to them? This reads "right four at a tee" or "right four at a four-

way junction" or "right four at an intersection". In my opinion, this

is much better as it gives the driver a better perception of the turn and

the intersection. This is not someting you could pick up from Jemba I

know.

 

4. The order of the symbols in the instruction, L2! or !2L is a matter of

personal preference and what some dismiss as completely misguided

others hold as the only correct way. Generally, I would like to hear the

instruction and then to be cautioned about it rather than a blanket caution

about something I do not know what it is.

 

5. So, my grading of the turns was inconsistent? By whose standard?

Yours? Now you speak exactly like Arne.

 

First, the centrifugal accelerometer driven through a turn of a specific

angle at a slow constant speed will always give the same reading, right?

So, in Jemba, these values determine the grade of the turn, right? That

is precisely the greatest fallacy of the Jemba system. It should be

easy to see why: For example, a ninety degree right turn (marked by

Jemba as R4) following a L2 would be marked R6 in pace notes and not

R4 like in Jemba. (Do you need an explanation? You go through L2 at

low speed so when you reach the immediately following right turn you

can stand on it.)

 

But I have a better story of Jemba consistency to tell: Arne has a

graph for one Swedish stage in his laptop. On each of the axis is

the corner grading from 1 to 6. Then he shows the points on the graph

which with respect to one axis show Arne's grading of the turns on this

particular stage and on the other axis the grading of the same turns

by a friend of his. The result is a straight line, that is to say, Arne's 3 is

his friend's 3 plus minus one half of a grade.

 

Then he shows how Didier Auriol and other world champions grade the

turns of the same stage. Didier Auriol points are all over the place!

Namely, they are one or two grades apart from Arne's grading of the

same turns in either direction!

 

Arne shows you this graph as a proof that his grading of turns is far more

consistent than Didier Auriol's. But, the difference between Arne and

Didier is the 1994 World Rally Championship. I told Arne. He did not like

it. Neither will you, I think.

 

Ivan Orisek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew_Frick

I am going to step into this topic. I am just sharing my opinion on how are team dealt with the notes. I had heard this arguement before the rally, but I ingnored it and came to the event with an open mind.

 

I feel that the recce was nesseary especially with a somewhat novice driver and totally green co-driver. Here are some of the problems we saw.

 

1) The distances were inconsistant. which made it hard to stay with the notes in sections that were 100 bumps 200 crest 100 jump 50 crest. We found ourselves saying was that the jump or the crest we just went over.

 

2) The cautions at the end of the complicated instructions of dangerous sections was not good. With an inexpirenced team I want to know about the caution before the instruction so I can start slowing down. And since a novice co-driver is more likely to botch an instruction the farther into they get having the caution at the end doesn't seem like safe way to do. If all he gets right is the caution and I have to drive what I see at least I know it is a dangerous section and need to drive accordingly.

 

3) The formating of the notes was poor. They were so close together on the page. I think around 10-12 lines per page, it would have been easy for a co-drivers eyes to skip a line in a rough section or if they got a little flustered. Plus this made editing the notes inplace impossible.

 

4) The lack of turn or junction instructions was unfortunate. As a driver I like to hear about the junctions so I know what I am going to be looking for. I know there were pictures in the notes but see number 3 above there was no room to add the work turn if you wanted to.

 

5) There were several places where I felt the turns where number too high we changed the numbers to lower numbers and changed L6 and L6 into L6 <> which seemed to better reflect the road.

 

All in all I felt the notes did a good job representing most of the stages. For all its faults I like the jemba notes because they are consistent from rally to rally. So for blind rallies they make it easier to know what to expect when you hear a call. If these notes had been closer to jemba in termenology and layout of the pages I think it would have been less of struggle for our team. Please do not take this as a personal attack or promotion of one form of notes over another, since there was a recce we were able to make the notes the way we wanted them. But not all rallies have recces and It would suck to have to learn a new notation standard and instruction set for every rally you attended.

 

I also want to thank the organizers for putting on a good a event that ran smoothly over both days. I had a great time and hope to attend this event again in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RobbiedUK

In response to the posts above about pace/stage/route notes id like to add some of my own comments.

 

Ive only used Jemba notes on 3 events so far. (the 3 ive done in the USA, RNY 2005, Sno*drift and 100AW 2006)

 

The notes supplied are 'route' or 'stage' notes. They give a description of the stage, they have to be 'safe' and they have to be general enough to allow any car with any crew a decent chance of getting through the stage as quickly as possible. How you interpret this info and how you drive to it is what makes a good crew, and ultimately, wins those events.

 

Back in the UK we get a very similar system, (althoug not computer generated) and we get similar issues. IE they are route notes not 'pace' notes and they are very keen to get this point across. The notes are generally regarded to be very 'safe' and you have to make the best of them. The advantage we now get is we can purchase a DVD of the person making the notes for each event. And get the notes and DVD a week in advance. So now we can alter notes to suit each driver and car. This has made a huge difference in how we now approach a non-recce event in the UK.

 

Ivan's notes were intended to be much more like 'pace' notes. So he was describing how you drive the stage much more than the actual route of the stage. As a (fairly) experienced co-driver in recce'ing, i found i didnt have to change very much for Dave (Anton) to get the most out of them. I added any landmarks i could to account for any fog (sign posts mainly, but buildings also) and altered some distances i felt would help him as he had only used Jemba notes in the past. Lines over certain crests were added and also any points we felt would have dirt/gravel/mud from previous runs. This is mainly driver and car specific stuff except maybe the mud and is only the finer points of the notes. This i wanted to get 100% as its vital to know what line to be taking through the fast stuff if you are going to be pushing hard (which we ended up doing!)

 

I did find the 'into' and '+' calls a little like '30' or '40' but only because im used to doing it slightly differently. In something like a world car/sorted open car you are coving these short distances so quickly and using so much of the road that these calls are probably bang on. It really doesnt matter what you use to describe a certain distance, as long as the driver knows in his head what to expect.

 

The actual core of the notes (grade and length of corner and length of the short straights) maybe i changed 2 or 3 of each throughout the whole recce. Eitherway certainly a lot less than we did when we recce'd RNY on Jemba notes last fall.

 

Yes, i would have written them in a slightly different format maybe with less on a page and with 'turn' at certain points etc etc but again its driver specific stuff. All in all i was plesaed with them. It was nice to be running pace notes again. Im amazed Ivan found time to get out there and put together these notes, with all the other things to sort out it was an impressive task.

 

There were some fantastic stages on RNY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TurboBoostedAWD
... there would have

been plenty of rewriting of Jemba notes had they been used by serious

crews in serious reconnaissance.

 

But we would have had space to edit them without rewriting the entire book.

 

For now, you are holding yourself out for an expert just because you had the opportunity in the past to drive Arne around.

 

Arne drives, I prepare notes.

I have codriven in far many more recce events with many different drivers each with various different preferences for notes, most of whom have never seen Jemba notes. I'm not resting on my former Jemba laurels. While you only see one way, your's.

 

1. In pacenoting, you do not measure straights with a tripmeter. .

 

Really? Google search for 'recce car' and look at the first example for sale:

 

"LHD 1.7 PUMA RECCE CAR ,UPRATED SUSPENSION,SUMPGUARD,MAPLIGHT,TERRATRIP 303 PLUS WITH REMOTE DISPLAY,11MONTHS MOT,100% READY TO GO TO WORK."

 

What do you suppose that remote display for the terratrip is for? Soley measuring distances of straights, long crest and curves.

 

Source:

http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/clas/index.php?ct=fsdiv&md=details&id=15988

 

Others must agree with me that your distances were inconsistant because they've posted it here as well.

 

Why do you think we have little tulips next to an instruction with mileage attached to them? This reads "right four at a tee" or "right four at a four-way junction" or "right four at an intersection".

 

Your notes have the tulip with no reference to a turn in the text, my notes have the tulip and a refernce to a turn in the text, Jemba has a reference to a turn in the text. Others must agree with me because they've posted it here as well.

 

The order of the symbols in the instruction, L2! or !2L is a matter of personal preference and what some dismiss as completely misguided others hold as the only correct way.

 

Others must agree with me because they've posted it here as well.

 

So, my grading of the turns was inconsistent? By whose standard? Yours?

 

I count 53 changes to corner grading between your book and what my driver thought. So, no, not mine.

 

 

First, the centrifugal accelerometer driven through a turn of a specific

angle at a slow constant speed will always give the same reading, right?

So, in Jemba, these values determine the grade of the turn, right? That

is precisely the greatest fallacy of the Jemba system. It should be

easy to see why: For example, a ninety degree right turn (marked by

Jemba as R4) following a L2 would be marked R6 in pace notes and not

R4 like in Jemba.

 

Jemba is more than just a 3 dimensional accelerometer. The part you do not understand is that is communicating with a Coralba odometer and knows the speed it is traveling and adjusts for it. Not only that, it is wired into the reverse light and even knows when the car is traveling backwards. Your 'slow constant speed' theory proves you don't know Jemba.

 

.....Arne shows you this graph as a proof that his grading of turns is far more consistent than Didier Auriol's. But, the difference between Arne and Didier is the 1994 World Rally Championship.

 

I know the graphs. What it tells me is that Didier Auriol is a great driver with photographic memory of stageroads that doesn't listen to his codriver anyway. Nothing more. If you choose to tease Arne that he is not a world champ, go ahead, you're not either, nor am I.

 

Anyhow, its not Jemba vs. Ivanba. Its about getting stagenotes uniform throughout the series with a shared glossary and meets the concerns of others posted here (room to edit, page breaks, caution placement,..).

 

Let me remind you there is another sanctioning body in the US that offers this and if competitors realize they don't like what NASA organizers are offering, you may lose them.

NASA offers recce as do many Canadian rallies. Given the choice to recce experienced teams of having to buy stagenotes/having included in entry fee which they aren't going to use because they will write their own notes anyway, or simply doing recce, preparing their own notes and paying nothing extra, which do you suppose these competitors will choose?

RallyNY $1190 USD

Rally St Agathe Defi $485 USD and Rally Baie des Chaleurs $400 USD

No brainer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alex K

All I can say is, please make COURSE NOTES not PACE NOTES. My pace isn't the same as Otis' pace, but my $1,000 is worth the same and we get the same notes. If top teams want pace notes at a recce rally, they'll make them on their own. I know that until you can assure us that your notes are COURSE notes and not PACE notes I'll have to take the extra day off and do recce (the cost of which might keep me from entering at all, even though I enjoyed recce a lot).

 

What we want are simple things, like one "50" being the same as the next "50" rather than finding that a "50" was changed to "and" because the entry to the previous turn was fast. That's not fair, where I'm going 65 Otis was going 95, for me it was still a "50" not an "and" (just a random made up example).

 

Ivan, we all love what you do for Rally NY even if some people don't agree with some of your methods. What you do have to realize is that these constructive criticisms are coming from your CUSTOMERS. Telling us we are wrong because that's not how it's done in the WRC is pointless, we are not the WRC and we never will be.

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ivan Orisek
All I can say is, please make COURSE NOTES not PACE NOTES. My pace isn't the same as Otis' pace, but my $1,000 is worth the same and we get the same notes. If top teams want pace notes at a recce rally, they'll make them on their own. I know that until you can assure us that your notes are COURSE notes and not PACE notes I'll have to take the extra day off and do recce (the cost of which might keep me from entering at all, even though I enjoyed recce a lot).

 

What we want are simple things, like one "50" being the same as the next "50" rather than finding that a "50" was changed to "and" because the entry to the previous turn was fast. That's not fair, where I'm going 65 Otis was going 95, for me it was still a "50" not an "and" (just a random made up example).

 

Ivan, we all love what you do for Rally NY even if some people don't agree with some of your methods. What you do have to realize is that these constructive criticisms are coming from your CUSTOMERS. Telling us we are wrong because that's not how it's done in the WRC is pointless, we are not the WRC and we never will be.

 

Alex

 

Alex,

 

Your are getting worried about something you found elsewhere and it is

not a well founded argument:

 

Your example will not make any difference to you, neither will many other

things. Please understand that any purchased notes are made with

a low "common denominator" so they can be used by anybody. None

of this has anything to do with WRC. Do not get hung up too much on

the somewhat artificial difference between Course Notes and Pace Notes

originally perpetuated by SCCA. And, you are quite right: If fast

teams want to refine the notes, they can either modify the purchased

notes or write their own.

 

To further put you at ease: After we made our notes, we put them side

by side with Jemba notes we had for some sections of the roads from

the past. We started laughing! The two were so similar! They should have

been, since they described the same corners and straights. There is no

mystery here and no high science. Since there is so little experience

with making notes in the US, this issue got so convoluted here lately

and needs to be unraveled.

 

Ivan Orisek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alex K
To further put you at ease: After we made our notes, we put them side by side with Jemba notes we had for some sections of the roads from the past. We started laughing! The two were so similar!

Peter put his old JEMB notes for Blind Pond side by side and noticed the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ivan Orisek
To further put you at ease: After we made our notes, we put them side by side with Jemba notes we had for some sections of the roads from the past. We started laughing! The two were so similar!

Peter put his old JEMB notes for Blind Pond side by side and noticed the same thing.

 

Thanks for confirmation.

 

I hope this settles the issue of Jemba versus other prepared notes and

the safety of both.

 

Regards,

 

Ivan Orisek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John K Shirley
Not trying to start a fight, just what Martin & I experianced.

 

We used the supplied notes. We did recce (3 passes) and made very minor changes for Benton Hollow/Midway and East Hill/Cutler. At speed they flowed perfect for us. Even in the fog with no sight lines to comfirm they where SPOT ON. Video & our time confirms it.

 

We did not Recce M. Weiden or Blind Pond having run them before in the fall and wanting to concentrate on the bulk mileage in the new stages. Again, Ivan's supplied notes where perfect for us on these stages @ speed including the added section to Blind Pond we did not do @ speed last fall (only as part of a transit and let me tell you, it was much more fun this time).

 

The only adjustment we had to make was to learn a few of his notation meanings which was very easy, simpler than Jemba. Ivan's notes described what the road looked like @ speed. Look @ the Jemba for M. Weiden and Blind Pond from this past fall, they only described the road, Ivans notes included more detail on M. Weiden when needed (not just 600 over crest) and less when it was correct to do so.

 

I'd use Ivan's notes anytime.

 

Bernie

 

To all concerned,

 

Any event that is sanctioned by NASA Rally Sport in the eastern US must in the future get written approval to use an alternative source for course notes!

This will be posted by bulletin shortly.

 

John K. Shirley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IHBObry
Not trying to start a fight, just what Martin & I experianced.

 

We used the supplied notes. We did recce (3 passes) and made very minor changes for Benton Hollow/Midway and East Hill/Cutler. At speed they flowed perfect for us. Even in the fog with no sight lines to comfirm they where SPOT ON. Video & our time confirms it.

 

We did not Recce M. Weiden or Blind Pond having run them before in the fall and wanting to concentrate on the bulk mileage in the new stages. Again, Ivan's supplied notes where perfect for us on these stages @ speed including the added section to Blind Pond we did not do @ speed last fall (only as part of a transit and let me tell you, it was much more fun this time).

 

The only adjustment we had to make was to learn a few of his notation meanings which was very easy, simpler than Jemba. Ivan's notes described what the road looked like @ speed. Look @ the Jemba for M. Weiden and Blind Pond from this past fall, they only described the road, Ivans notes included more detail on M. Weiden when needed (not just 600 over crest) and less when it was correct to do so.

 

I'd use Ivan's notes anytime.

 

Bernie

 

To all concerned,

 

Any event that is sanctioned by NASA Rally Sport in the eastern US must in the future get written approval to use an alternative source for course notes!

This will be posted by bulletin shortly.

 

John K. Shirley

 

Does the bulletin address making ones own pacenotes and their use by others?

 

Bernie

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TurboBoostedAWD

 

Does the bulletin address making ones own pace notes?

 

Bernie

 

Pace notes have always been open: do what you want. Good codrivers were making them on the first pass of repeated stages back when we were still running blind tulip rallies here. Excellent codrivers were making them backwards for in & out stages or stages run in reverse direction later. If given the opportunity for drivers/codrivers to view the roads by organizers, there will be pacenotes.

 

Bernie,

Didn't you sit in on Nicky Grist's seminar? And you didn't take the opportunity to write your own pace notes at RallyNY? Sounds like a missed opportunity to pratice the craft of skillfull codriving while it was fresh in your head. Kinda like getting your PhD and then going to work flipping burgers at McDonald's.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IHBObry

"must in the future get written approval to use an alternative source for course notes! "

 

Would not pacenotes be an "alternative source"? That was my point.

 

And pacenotes are written by the driver, no? My driver chose to use the supplied notes. I also gave my driver the option of the Jemba from this past fall being used whenever applicable which he chose not to do. I used much of what Niky Grist spoke about to interpet Ivans supplied notes and because of that I could see/feel what he was describing. It gave me confidence in the notes and in turn I could confidently use them with my driver. Look @ the results for day one I think we did ok. (day 2 rally gremlins as I told you before you left the service area the last time plauged us) Lastly it would be foolish to do pacenotes the first crack out @ an event. Nicky spoke @ length about how he and Colin worked to get a system they liked that worked and they did so by practicing making notes over and over before actually using them in competition.

 

Bernie

 

"Didn't you sit in on Nicky Grist's seminar? And you didn't take the opportunity to write your own pace notes at RallyNY? Sounds like a missed opportunity to pratice the craft of skillfull codriving while it was fresh in your head. Kinda like getting your PhD and then going to work flipping burgers at McDonald's."

 

yea, burger flipping that's it... I always told my 1st driver and buddy Gary, "Only we know what happens in the car" ... Maybe you will get to see the incar of the foggy stage someday and you can tell me how well I/We flipped those burgers.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TurboBoostedAWD

Would not pacenotes be an "alternative source"?

Bernie

 

Don't let Ivan's "somehat artificial difference between Course Notes and Pace Notes originally perpetuated by SCCA." ignorant speak get you confused.

 

The term 'stagenotes' as used in N America refers to organizer supplied notes objectively written simply describing the road charactistics that any team can use to safely navigate the road without biases.

 

'Pacenotes' are written by individual teams with much more detail for a specific speed in a specific style suited just for them.

 

Ivan's "stagenotes" were barely more descriptive than Jemba notes in that he choose to include absolute (flat) crests. But Jemba includes other descriptions to go faster (such a curves opening, keepR/C,...) totally omited by Ivan. If a curve tightens going in one direction, it opens going in the opposite direction. Never mentioned.

 

Good pacenotes will include all these plus references to braking points (i.e. brake at hydrant), noting which corners to cut to go faster in addition to those not to cut which stagenotes should provide to warn of danger in apex, and 'tightens @ exit mailbox' was a good pacenote call for the extra long left near the beginning of Mathias- Weiden East. Check your video. There is more to pacenotes than Ivan's absolute crests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IHBObry

Would not pacenotes be an "alternative source"?

Bernie

 

Don't let Ivan's "somehat artificial difference between Course Notes and Pace Notes originally perpetuated by SCCA." ignorant speak get you confused.

 

I'm not confused. Pacenotes can be bought and sold correct? I was only politely trying to suggest to John he might want to reference the practice. Scenario, Bought pacenotes (now in the hands of the purchaser becomes coarsenotes in my mind and that is how btw I treated the notes supplied by Ivan) In this scenario these are used and tragedy results. Does the bulletin address the chance I bought those notes from an alternative source like another competitor so as to protect NASA and the organizer? I have read on SS this happens up north on occasion.

 

Sorry I don't have the capacity to explain myself to you. I wrote an incomplete sentance that @ the moment made sense to me. I went and fixed it. Where did I leave that spatula?

 

Bernie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TurboBoostedAWD
Pacenotes can be bought and sold correct?

 

Yes. I've been on both ends. Also, given my notes from the previous year's rally to another team who would be participating in the current recce when I would not be able to. They made appropriate edits and wrote from scratch new stages and provided me with their updated version. Both teams benefit.

 

Scenario, Bought pacenotes (now in the hands of the purchaser becomes coarsenotes in my mind) In this scenario these are used and tragedy results. Does the bulletin address the chance I bought those notes from an alternative source like another competitor so as to protect NASA and the organizer?

 

Its nothing NASA can police or regulate anyway. Why would NASA be liable? Is your rollcage fabricator or designer responsible for any failures of your rollcage? Are you going to file lawsuit against a rally tire manufactuer for an accident caused by a blow-out.

In trading/selling and accepting others pacenotes, an implied waiver applies weather written, verbal or neither, is actually given. Treat others pacenotes just like the advice you get from your stockbroker. If they're wrong, you could be screwed and are left with no recourse other than finding better notes/advise next time.

 

Pacenotes are less likely accurate than stagenotes execpt for stages re-run for multiple years as teams usually only get 2 passes of the road. A stagenote author has no limit and will drive the stage until they are satisfied all instructions are correct and precise.

 

I have read on SS this happens up north on occasion.

 

Yep. You'll find in eastern Canada much variety in pacenotes. Most obvious is the language difference between French Quebec teams and english teams. I've had to translate French notes to English, heard French teams referencing rally-specific terms (hairpin)in English yet most other words in French, and French teams have been stuck with only English organizer-supplied stagenotes.

The first Charlevoix had organizer supplied notes that described fastest curve degrees as '1' and '6' as slowest. So the older teams around since then use that system of curve grading while newer teams who learned with Jemba use '1' as slowest and '6' as fastest.

Western Canadian teams started with Jemba (Rocky Mtn Rally) and are now adopting Pat's style of instructions and terms into their notes.

 

Where did I leave that spatula?

 

Can I get fries with that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IHBObry

"Its nothing NASA can police or regulate anyway. Why would NASA be liable? Is your rollcage fabricator or designer responsible for any failures of your rollcage? Are you going to file lawsuit against a rally tire manufactuer for an accident caused by a blow-out.

In trading/selling and accepting others pacenotes, an implied waiver is given weather written, verbal or neither, is a given."

 

 

Old worn out topic but... I wouldn't sue, and I would accept the risk, but my estate or another competitor might not. And as I deal with liability everyday, yes I would specifically address this as a sanctioning body and organizer and any competitor selling their notes. Esp. in light of the past 2 weeks and the public discussion of all manner of notes and safety.

 

Bernie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TurboBoostedAWD
"I wouldn't sue, and I would accept the risk, but my estate or another competitor might not. And as I deal with liability everyday, yes I would specifically address this as a sanctioning body and organizer and any competitor selling their notes.

 

There are some (few though) people I wouldn't provide my pacenotes to for that very reason.

 

Knowing that you're going to copy your notes to provide for another team's use always equates to more work and detail than if you were just running on them yourself. More stage and road description info, more landmark references/distances to assist them if they become lost (we never become lost in our own notes, do we?), and not being able to reference a group of instructions as a 'familar' instruction that driver recognizes (bonehead junction, Camp Brule, 'sweeper curve', ...) to the point the extra inconvenience isn't worth what you are asking for your notes.

 

So what wording do you propose NASA state to protect competitors providing their pacenotes to others? I still don't understand how a sanctioning body can be considered responsible for competitor's notes and maybe hearing what you are asking for will enlighten me and help John and Wilson get it on paper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...