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BDacres

Sweep vehicle speeds!

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BDacres

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rallycomm

As Chief Communications Officer I thank you for your input & observations. I do have a few corrections & questions. Corrections, at RNY USA 06 we had two sweep vehicles, both with radio communications and severial years experiance at these events. For my education please provide me with the RNY USA 06 document that references "Slow Sweep", I must have missed that one. Advice, if you felt that this was a safety issue, did you bring this to the attention of your "Stage Commander" or any other Rally Official l on Friday? You were working as a Marshal, it was part of your job to bring any actual or potential safety issues to the officials. Public posting after the fact only causes me to question your motives, are you interested in safety or are you looking to discredit a good rally?

Thank you again I will take your comments and see that they are incorporated in future training for Marshals, Sweeps, & Radio Operators.

 

It's been said many times...."we can be part of the problem, or part of the solution" which would you like to be?

 

Rich Otis N2ZKX

Chief Communications Officer RNY USA 06

[email protected] 845-344-2720 cell 845-649-8112 http://www.n2zkx.com

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Anders Green
Public posting after the fact only causes me to question your motives, are you interested in safety or are you looking to discredit a good rally?

Brent is a about-to-be-new rally competitor. He would have competed at Sandblast Rally, but his Dodge Colt had trouble... he came down to marshal instead. I think he's genuinely concerned about the safety.

 

It raises an interesting point, actually. I know that my worker meeting outline sticks generally to "how to marshal the roads and deal with the public" but it doesn't cover anything like "if I see other rally marshals/officials/vehicles doing something that may be unsafe, what should I do?". I wasn't at the RNY worker meeting, so I don't know if you guys covered that kind of thing. I'll be adding something like that to my worker meeting outline, Rich, if you guys already have stuff written up, can you send it my way?

 

Cheers,

Anders

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Alex K

I forget where, but some where out on the internet there's video of the so-called "safety vehicle" full size toyota pickup blowing the R3 onto gravel at the end of Mattias Weiden. Innapropriate behavior for any non-competion car, zero, sweep or otherwise - I need a full suite of safety gear to go slower than the sweep can in a street vehicle? How does that make sense?

 

I didn't get air here:

221b.jpg

Did he have a helmet on? A cage?

 

Public posting after the fact only causes me to question your motives, are you interested in safety or are you looking to discredit a good rally?
Why would a rally enthusaist want to discredit a rally?

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Knestis
...please provide me with the RNY USA 06 document that references "Slow Sweep", I must have missed that one. Advice, if you felt that this was a safety issue, did you bring this to the attention of your "Stage Commander" or any other Rally Official l on Friday? You were working as a Marshal, it was part of your job to bring any actual or potential safety issues to the officials. ...

 

Interesting tone and perhaps indicative of why someone might be reluctant to voice their concerns up the org chart.

 

As always, Anders impresses with his proactive approach. Most people wouldn't raise an issue like that for fear of potentially upsetting the applecart.

 

K

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don kennedy

I've seen this same thing before when I've DNFed and sweep came barrelling up on us (can't remember what event, been too many DNF's here lately, got to fix that ). It's something both organizations need to pay more attention to, including course opening cars (as has been somewhat discussed on SS).

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rallycomm

I will interview the radio operator that was riding in the checkered flag vehicle. I have already spoken with both sweep operators and reinforced the Rally Safety Protocol & the function of the Rally Sweep. They have both assured me that all of the above are "crystal clear". Furthurmore I will be keeping a very very close eye on all sweeps in future rallies and in the event of any overenthusiastic behavior, I will make any appropriate staffing changes immediately. Many of y'all don't know me but I promise you one thing .....I don't "B__l S__t"!

 

In answer to your questions; roll cage NO, helmet NO. My first impression is that this is "very uncool".

 

When I feel I have all the facts relating to the photo I will be happy to post my opinion.

 

As for the "Interesting tone", well I'm just not following what you are trying to say. I'm a volunteer just like anyone else however I take my responsibility very seriously, I feel it is irresopnsible for someone working in a safety capicity (volunteer or paid) to fail to report, in a timely manner, something they feel is an unsafe situation.

 

I'll wait and see if Brent Dacres has anything to say, after all my questions were directed to him

 

It's been said many times...."we can be part of the problem, or part of the solution" which would you like to be?

 

Rich Otis N2ZKX

Chief Communications Officer RNY USA 06

[email protected] 845-344-2720 cell 845-649-8112 http://www.n2zkx.com

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BDacres

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Lurchie
MG_3158.jpg

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Alex K

Can I note that the truck also commited the sin of having ugly wheels?

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rallycomm

Again to all of you that have expressed an interest in Rally Safety Thank You!

 

I'll direct this to Brent however it should cover any loose end regarding photos or video.

 

Brent

 

Thank you for your background information as well as the description of "Slow Sweep", I'm sure there are some rallies where they are required. At RNY events we do not use "Slow Sweeps" because there is no need for them. this is because we have a very comprehensive radio net which is used to track & identify the section of the stage where a competitor is "off". On the Benton Hollow/Midway stages (17 mi.) there were ten radio locations staffed by twenty Ham Radio operators, in addition there were eight mobile operators (Safety vehicles), all fixed stations log all cars that pass their location, this makes it very easy to identify where a missing car is located.

As per the RNY USA Safety Plan the Checkered Flag Car (truck) entered the stage directly after the last competitor & is/was directed to follow at a "brisk pace" NOT RACING SPEED. When required Checkered Flag is followed by a Sweep (4x4) that travels at a slightly slower pace. All course vehicles are equipped with 50 w mobile Ham Radios (except the 000 car this time), coverage was seamless with most areas of the courses accessible with a handheld. I'm sure you can see why there is no need for a "Slow Sweep" with such a net in place.

 

Regarding reporting of Safety Concerns; I am still unclear why a person with twenty-five years experience would consider discussing this with a steward, even my novice operators are familiar with the duties and responsibilities of stewards. I'm sure you know that stewards are not allowed to give direction or advice to rally staff, however knowing the stewards that were at RNY I'm very surprised whomever you spoke with did not bring this to the attention of a Rally Official. Perhaps the steward, after observing the vehicles you voiced concern about, did not feel it was a safety issue. Brent it's hard for me to say considering I didn't hear anything about this for over a week after the Rally.

 

All course marshals should report any safety concerns to the stage commander, this is easily done via the radio net. If you do not have a radio at your post remember all course safety cars are radio equipped, flag one down and let them know what you need.

 

About the episode with the teenager on the ATV & a Sweep squealing tires and horns blowing & waiting for the thud, You stated that you did not see what happened because it was over a crest out of your view. Because I and all the other RNY officials take all safety issues, questions, and concerns very seriously I have interviewed three eyewitnesses to the ATV versus Sweep report, actually being able to see what went on offered a completely different account of the event, rest assured it was and is a non issue.

 

If you feel I'm coming down a little hard on this you're correct. Other people read these posts and not all of them "Love Rally", don't "load the gun for the bad guys". We should all try to present the best image of Rally on public forums

 

Report your concerns to the appropriate people in a timely manner, ask when you should have an answer, if you don't hear anything in a reasonable amount of time ask once more, If someone can't give you a satisfactory answer after that.......THEN BLAST AWAY!!!!!

 

Thanks I'm finished with this discussion if you need anything further contact me direct [email protected]

 

73

 

Rich Otis N2ZKX

Chief Communications Officer Rally New York

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Kolia

I just love the Rally Ego thing...

 

Rich, I don't know you but damn, I wouldn't like to have to report something to you I knew you wouldn't like to hear!

 

Just like I'm doing now actually...

 

Pretty nice pictures of an airborn SUV. I'm glad this is no safety issues at all...

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IHBObry
I just love the Rally Ego thing...

 

How about people tired of their volunteer work being abused by "experts" who give half the story, late, in an acusitory manner.

 

There's so much back story here about the people who are "experts" and "helped". Most will never come out but the manner in which it is politely being held back on by the people being accused is a credit to them.

 

I'll wait for Ivans report to say more if anything, I've given him what I know. This "expert" should have done the same especially as an "official".

 

Bernie

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Kolia

I agree with you.

 

It’s not the first time I see this kind of reaction whenever someone dares to criticize a rally event. Sure, it hurts when people say bad things of your baby, but it’s no reason not to stay civil while replying.

 

There are channels for complaints and they should be used. A public forum is not the best place for it. Luckily, NASA forums are mainly visited by NASA members, so things like that can stay “in the family”. All the more reason not to come down on a fellow member who is actually a supporter!

 

I don’t know the details of the incident. Frankly, it’s not my business. But internet pictures of a flying SUV bearing marking identifying it as a rally vehicle, that does affect the sport.

 

I’m just giving me impression of the debate here. It’s not showing a very friendly side of volunteering to marshal duties. Being shouted at because of speaking out is not very interesting. There were many ways this discussion could have been resolved quietly.

 

I believe this topic should be deleted once the original poster and the people in charge have settled their differences privately.

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Knestis
... As for the "Interesting tone", well I'm just not following what you are trying to say. ...

 

Simply that, for someone who's volunteered to watch an intersection, and is not part of the "old guard" established organization, it would be pretty daunting to question the judgement and authority of someone who probably seemed to be connected with the people running things.

 

I could see being in that position, that it would be easy to interpret after-the-fact criticism for not reporting the incident at the time as an indication that the news wouldn't have been well received in person, at the event.

 

I made the mistake of failing the local club president's car, the first time I worked tech at an ICSCC road race at Seattle International Raceway - along with two other regular competitors' cars, that were clearly in violation of the rules. One had a leaky wheel cylinder (Formula Vee) and the other had the fire extinguisher mounted under the seat (Formula Ford). The guy running tech made the FF guy re-mount his extinguisher, but the other two got a pass.

 

The Vee later blew the stop at the 3A run-off road, when his brakes failed completely. I got a stern talking-to from the tech guy, who suggested that maybe I should do F&C or scoring or something.

 

Sometimes it's not easy to do the right thing as a newby.

 

K

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BDacres

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Knestis

To clarify - I for one NEVER for a minute thought that anyone in this conversation was minimalizing the seriousness of the situation. My training just tunes me into the social/organizational issues of a situation like this, as an academic exercise. Sometimes there are influences on policy or practice that are completely counter to what everyone intends, that are just really hard to overcome.

 

K

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Alex K

Rich - nobody is "blasting" anybody, we are just saying that the "saftey truck's" brisk pace is way too brisk. I didn't get air on Blind Pond, I didn't slide off the end of Mattias Wieden, yet I finished mid-pack in both ESRC events. Sounds like the truck was going competition speeds to me (or he can defy gravity on Blind Pond and just sucked on Mattias Wieden...), so slow it down. The truck was wrong to go that fast, no further debate needed.

 

Save your energy for fighting with the Liberty towns folk:

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/04/18/news-hynorally-04-18.html

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mothra

Let's see if I can avoid getting to wrapped in this debate and still contribute something. I drove heavy/slow sweep for Rally Tennesse last year (the events first running) and I can only speak of my experience there.

 

I had a HAM operator in the truck with me and we were generally in constant communication with the rally net. We also had a route book and stage notes. On any given stage we knew before we left stage start...if a competitor was off, where they were off, and if all competitors had been accounted for. i.e. we knew if there was a need to look for tracks leaving the road off into the woods. In addition we were responsible for checking chicanes/banner tpe as we went through. On many stages we new that no competitors were of and drove the stages quick to get setup to sweep the next stage and keep the rally on schedule. Sometimes we rushed so we could get a chance to eat, refill the gas tank, use the bathroom, etc.

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Alex K

Matt, did you get air? Did you blow any corners?

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Ben_Slocum

Here's an observation.

 

You KNOW that no one is off on a stage because everycar reports in that they didn't see anyone off. The next car is the safety catch for the car infront of it. If you leave as soon as the last car goes, and they are going at competition speed, which realisticly could be 60% of top speed if their seeded there, or even 100% if it's the fastest guy whos gone off and has been re-seeded to the back. Now if your imedietly following them out of the gate, how do you know they THEY won't go off. You could just as easily plunk into the last guy on the stage who's gone off just after a crest.

 

Not trying to enter the debate, I just think that this is a point that needs to be considered when setting sweeps speed.

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Lurchie

Two cars under direction of rally officials should be going anywhere near rally speed. They are Car 0, and medical sweep.

 

Car 000, Car 00 and the rest of the sweep vehicles should be going thru at transit speed.

 

All cars should have radio operators.

 

Car 0 and medical sweep (the car immediately preceeding and following the competition cars) should be prepared rally cars with cages, helmets, suits, and fire systems on rally tires suitable for the event.

 

The rest should be GOING TRANSIT SPEED.

 

This is not just a problem at this rally. This is a problem at many american rallies under both sanctioning bodies. It will bite us in the ass someday.

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w1jim

At STPR I have worked as the "Tracker" which is essentially a fast sweep. I have a skidplate and lights on my Audi but no other safety equipment. I drive it as such.

We follow the last car by one minute. Our goals are to act as the last cars safety (they otherwise would have no one behind them for a while until sweep can catch up after pick-ups), pick up the logs and report the position (& needs) of any offs to the sweep that follows.

While I certainly enjoy driving the stage it is important that I not go off and thusly become part of the problem rather then the solution.

I also like the idea of being able to drive home and not have repair bills. I will not be catching any air.

Always remember, we are ambassadors to the sport. Be it during a race weekend or driving around town with stickers on our car or service truck.

Jim Blumenfeld

W1JIM

RNY, STPR & MFR Stage Captains (etc)

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mothra
Matt, did you get air? Did you blow any corners?

 

 

Honestly no...I personally don't think that the sweep vehicles should be going that fast. I know of a corner or two that I took faster than I was comfortable taking in the 4wd truck. But not fast enough to get any wheels off the ground. We drove the stages at a brisk pace when we knew they were clear. Mostly to keep the rally on schedule and allow roads to be opened to non-rally traffic expediantly.

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