King Matt Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Sorry guys, but you have no idea how many emails and calls we are getting about this. Can I run a Vette in AI, can I run X? and on. Then adopting an approved car list as previously suggested would be a great solution. It would be easy enough to revise when necessary but would cut down on a lot of the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Not a bad idea. We'll calendar that for the 2007 rules. Remind me in late September as I might be a bit fried by then... -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr42ai Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 If it brings up the car count, why not let Vetts run, at least test one with 275 toyos and 9.5 power to weight. You might be supprised. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 If it brings up the car count, why not let Vetts run, at least test one with 275 toyos and 9.5 power to weight. You might be supprised.A C5 or C6 Corvette on 275's with 9.5:1 power, and the allowed modifications, should run away from an AI car. It's lower, wider, has better aero, and a suspension light years ahead of everything else in AI... and it's relatively light. I can't think of a single performance disadvantage it has over the typical mustangs and f-bodies in AI. Fast Laps at the 2005 SCCA runoffs: A Sedan: 1:37.143 (which are typically same or slightly faster than AI cars) T1: 1:33.403 (which are allowed far less modifications than AS or AI) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr42ai Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Its just the opposite on the west coast, AI at Infineon 1.49.4, T1 1.49.5 The same could be said for Thunder Hill even though SCCA goes over the top of turn 5 and NASA takes the bypass the difference is thought to be 2.5 to 3 seconds a lap slower for SCCA, Scotty White T1 2.03.156 Guy Cunningham(me) AI 1.59.30 Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I have to agree with Jeff on this one (god, that hurts ). The Corvette will crush any Mustang all things being equal, even the Wil-stone proclaimed "unbeatable" 05 Mustang. However, I am in favor of less classes. SO, let the corvette in with a higher minimum weight and a power to weight of 9.75:1, or 10:1 or something of that nature. I think if done right it could be a good thing. Kill the VVC class and homoligate them into AI. That is my opinion as a competitor, not a director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 T1 Track Record at Thunderhill is 01:58.2 by Scotty White. I don't know the track, but this would be with a bypass that should make it 2.5-3 seconds slower? http://www.thunderhill.com/timingrecords.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 If it brings up the car count, why not let Vetts run, at least test one with 275 toyos and 9.5 power to weight. You might be supprised.A C5 or C6 Corvette on 275's with 9.5:1 power, and the allowed modifications, should run away from an AI car. It's lower, wider, has better aero, and a suspension light years ahead of everything else in AI... and it's relatively light. I can't think of a single performance disadvantage it has over the typical mustangs and f-bodies in AI. Fast Laps at the 2005 SCCA runoffs: A Sedan: 1:37.143 (which are typically same or slightly faster than AI cars) T1: 1:33.403 (which are allowed far less modifications than AS or AI) I imagine that when you put a corvette on 275's on all 4 corners they will slow down significantly. Those T1 cars run 335 in the rear and 315 in the front. The balance and handling would be severly hurt by running the "skinny" AI tires. it's worth a try as an experiment. What's to lose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I'm not sure how many potential Vettes you guys have but here on the West Coast we can't even get them to in their own class, VVC, I can't see them want to run in AI even if we would rewrite the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I would be in favor of the Vettes joining AI, limited to 275 tires, sticking to the 9.5hp / 9.0 tq rules, and the other AI rules. It may be a fluke, but the vettes I have raced with out here in the west, were running similar/slower lap times then the AI cars, However, I have no idea of the vettes I am thinking of car mod state. But the AI rules are great equalizers. For the most part, AI rules equalize the cars similar to how Speed-WC does with weight added for podium finishes.... Let them in, adjustments can be made to make things fair.... andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Andy, I agree with you, the AI rules are great equalizers. I think vettes in AI would be fun, but I don't think the same about vettes in AIX. You're opening the flood gates there for ex WCGT cars to come hold court - currently they run restrictor plates, and depending on how much ballast they carry may or may not run close-ratio gearboxes. I know Ernesto's car is fast as hell, but those C5 cars have a lot smaller profile to push through the air among other advantages. And since you bring up the topic of the rewards weight principle used in World Challenge, do you think the participants of AI would ever be open to adopting a similar form of equalizing competition? I know it's not my place to reinvent the wheel, but after getting more of an inside look at the series this year, it seems that there might be more overall benefit than short-term downside regarding rewards weight. Either way I'm tickled to death to run AI with everyone, 'cept for these stoopid Ford motors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I dont want to open up that rats nest, about awards weight, a few guys blew a gasket about that last time.... ha..... As a group, lets find ways to expand is all I am saying... BUT, if it gets away from the original goals of AI, then I would be in less support.... I have been driving with Vettes in NASA HPDE, then TT, in SU and AI with V.V.C. groups now for 5+ years, from what I saw, as far as lap times, we could include them without much hassle (but the Vipers toasted us, so I am only talking about Vettes....). (excluding Z06 models). ( I think...) andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmacdon Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Did anything ever come of the original question? I find it hard to argue that the GTO is any different than the Capri. 100.7 inch wheelbase by the way. Seems like there's been some discussion on how to make 4/6cyl cars competitive and the frontal area of the capri would go a long way to help. Maybe even add a rule that a car can't have more cylinders than it came with to eliminate a low frontal area V8 capri. Yes or No? Alex edit to clarify: a car platform cant have more cyl than any version of that platform came with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 NO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 edit to clarify: a car platform cant have more cyl than any version of that platform came with. Why? If I want to run a Ford V10 I could... It's an OEM motor, same goes for a W12 from a Veyron, sans turbos probably! the rules only say I can't run a Judd, an Ilmore or a turbine...otherwise, make the hp/wt ratio and we are good to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Has nothing to do with the numbers of cylinders, and there is no limitation to the numbers of cylinders as long as the engine is OEM. One more time, the Capri is based on the German Sierra and American Iron is a class for American style muscle cars. I don't think anyone would consider the Capri/Sierra a American style muscle car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 This still doesn't make any sense to me. The rule states any 1960-or later American-made sedan, yet we all know that doesn't really mean the vehicle had to actually be manufactured in the United States, merely that it was marketed as a domestic vehicle by a domestic manufacturer. The early 70s Capri is absolutely no different than the new GTO in that regard. It was a foreign-market designed and produced vehicle that was marketed in the US because the company saw an opportunity to fill a niche that was not being served by a domestic product. The Capri had an identity in the US that was different than in its home market, just as the GTO does/did. Why is the car not legal if it fits the rest of the rules? The American-style musclecar argument fails because Caprices and Thunderbirds are not a musclecars either, and they are both legal. I would like to see this clarified with an eligible cars list, which can be as arbitrary and "capri"-cious as you want it, but at least it would be black-and-white." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 The American-style musclecar argument fails because Caprices and Thunderbirds are not a musclecars either, and they are both legal. Neither are Cadillacs! I wonder if that Badarse CTS-V that was recently sold on Ebay will make it into AI? Was a bargain at $32,000 considering the Katech motor and all the suspension goodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 (edited) This still doesn't make any sense to me. The rule states any 1960-or later American-made sedan, yet we all know that doesn't really mean the vehicle had to actually be manufactured in the United States, merely that it was marketed as a domestic vehicle by a domestic manufacturer. The early 70s Capri is absolutely no different than the new GTO in that regard. It was a foreign-market designed and produced vehicle that was marketed in the US because the company saw an opportunity to fill a niche that was not being served by a domestic product. The Capri had an identity in the US that was different than in its home market, just as the GTO does/did. Why is the car not legal if it fits the rest of the rules? The American-style musclecar argument fails because Caprices and Thunderbirds are not a musclecars either, and they are both legal. I would like to see this clarified with an eligible cars list, which can be as arbitrary and "capri"-cious as you want it, but at least it would be black-and-white." Matt read the intent of the series. Caprice/Impala was available with LT-1 and that in my book categorize it as a muscle car, not to mention the earlier Z-11 Impalas and Thunderbird was one of the original muscle cars with supercharger and other goodies. Edited January 16, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 The American-style musclecar argument fails because Caprices and Thunderbirds are not a musclecars either, and they are both legal. Neither are Cadillacs! I wonder if that Badarse CTS-V that was recently sold on Ebay will make it into AI? Was a bargain at $32,000 considering the Katech motor and all the suspension goodies. CTS-V are not a muscle car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 CTS-V are not a muscle car? Nope! Powerful Luxobarge with nice brakes. Muscle car implies lightweight, stripped down "economy" car with a big motor for performance. Not a bling bling luxury brand with every conceivable technology option and priced in the outer regions of unobtania. That would be a high end sports car, or border line exotic really. Also don't recall too many cadillacs in the early years of trans am...a few goats, ramblers and some other AMC weirdos but DEFINITELY ZERO Caddy's!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Not to split hair but Cunningham drove one of two Caddy's at Le Mans 1950 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewidower Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Capri's and XR4TIs have significant racing histories for a domestic manufacturer. Can't say the same for a Caprice. So I guess it had to have a V8 in it in order to qualify. Funny, the Capri's and XRs could more than hold there own or kick the crap out of garden variety Mustangs and Camaro's of the same vintage. Who in the world would want a 74 mustang over the same year Capri. I'm with Matt on this one, post a list. Of course I still want to race a '66 Corvair Corsa. But I'm nuts (yeah I know its rear-engined, and has an unapproved IRS) Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Corkran Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Of course I still want to race a '66 Corvair Corsa. Then do it. Build for PT/ST. If you build a Corvair/German Capri/XB Falcon/whatever to ST2 specs you'll be running in the same race as AI in some (most?) regions - and you should be able to beat them all if you take full advantage of the looser rules and lower lbs/hp limit. You'll also be battling in class against Corvettes, FFR's, Hondas, Evos, STi's, 7 clones, you name it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Guys- This is indeed a weak point and something we will work on for 2009. With Camaros that are built in Canada and Goats from Down Under allowed, we clearly have gone beyond the original wording as has been pointed out and duly noted. So, until we get a list or figure out some clever language, we'll go with a case by case basis. The Capri and XR4Ti don't work as neither calls to mind the original vision of the series. I know that sounds hokey, but PT/ST or even GTS offers a nice home for those cars and we need to keep some semblance of ponycars and musclecars in AI or we stand to lose the identity we've worked hard to create. So, if you have an odd one you'd like to try, hit me up and I will pass it by the Directors. Who knows, maybe the Corvair idea ain't that crazy after all... Thanks. -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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