Greeting 944 community! Newbie here!

[Steve S.]

Greetings and salutations to all.

 

I am yet another newbie to the fourm and, I hope, the 944 spec group.

 

After a long time, I finally got back to owning a 944. I loved this car growing up and had one for a brief time. After buying it, I heard about the 944 spec group from Tim's posting on Rennlist. After reading about it and seeing what the group is based on, I have decided to jump in and go for it!

 

My problem is, I am like the Cole Trikle character (days of thunder) in that I can drive, but I am not a gear head. I can tackle basic and simple things, but setting up a car would be like a first date for me....kind of all over the place and not sure what I'm doing, but still loving it!

 

I bascially wanted to entroduce myself and would love some advise from the group on getting started. In the time I have been alive, I know these 3 things to be true:

1) If rash develops, discontinue use.

2) There is a God and I'm not him. (or her if you want to be politically correct)

3) When doing something new, always ask questions and learn from the people who are already doing it as they have made the mistakes and usually know the quickest path to where you want to end up.

 

Any info on what year/model car to go with? What not to waste money on? Anything that is a must? Any cars out there for sale? What color car is fastest? (I know, I know...it was just funny when was thinking about it because you know somebody out there will ask that question for real).

 

Thanks in advance for your help and I look forward to meeting you all at the track.

 

PS. Who is this Stepanian character that races 944 spec?

[944-Spec#94]

Any year 944 will be competitive in class. The rules were designed so that there is no "best" year car. When building a car every one has their preference for different model years, but this comes down to more perference than real performance advantages. In the end you can update/backdate from all years so even if you think a certan year car has a better part you can swap to them.

 

Given your limited tech skill the best place to start is with a finished completed car. One that has been raced a little to work out all the bugs and has a decient set-up. Once you have that you simply need to learn to drive the car and will do fine. As time goes on you may find the need to tweak the car to your liking a bit, but don't worry about it right away.

 

Most of the time a novice in fast car or poorly set-up car will be 5-6 seconds of the fastest times. Of this 3.5-4.5 seconds will be due to the driver alone. Once you are with in 2 seconds or so of the fast times car set-up will start making a difference. Even then some carefull tweaking should bring a good driver right in the speed range. Once a driver is good enough to run that speed the way to tweak the car becomes much more clear.

 

So if you buy a decently set-up car you should be good for a couple years before you even need to consider changing even aligment settings.

 

Cost for a nicely prepped car complete runs about 9 to 12k depending on how much has done, spares and of course if is pretty or not. A 9k car will have decient motor, good suspension, poor paint, and probably one spare set of wheels.

 

a 12k car will have a freshly done engine (maybe 2 hp more than the 9k car), fresh well tuned suspension, really nice paint, custom cage,2 or 3 sets of wheels and tires and possbily an LSD. Maybe even spares.

 

Difference in speed between the 9k car and the 12k car is maybe a couple tenths on the track, but with a good driver will be more a factor of actual aligment settings and how they fit with driver style than anything in the car.

 

Reliablity can be better with the 12k car, but that depends on alot of factors.

 

Cars in the 6k to 9k range are probaby those that will need some work. They may have all the parts, but are not fully sorted or could use a few things replaced. Some times they are race legal, but missing a few prep details. These are good for those that don't want to build it from nothing, but don't mind a little work to get it exactly like they want it.

 

Cars under about 6k are probably 1/2 built or still very much like street cars. These will require work to bring them to race prep level.

[Steve S.]

Now that is some solid information. I pretty much figured that was about where the class is at as it is suppose to be a drivers series. I traded some email and voicemail with Tim in San Diego and it looks like he can help with what I need if I need other guidence on building a car.

 

Sounds like I need to finalize a budget and level of commitment before proceeding and possibly finding the right chasis to either buy or work with, too.

 

Thanks for the insight!

[Spec-944#70]

Joe is right on most stuff but a 9k car will be far off from mine which is for sale at $12500.With a 9k car you will get a car set up but with a 100k mile motor just begging to blow. Since your not a gear head figure at least $4500 for a rebuild. Some motors come with new rod bearings and that's great as they are the weak link to our motors. My crank has been cross drilled to help with oil flow there. Another thing to look for is the short 5th gear (needed at Willow Springs, Cal Speedway). Mine has a rebuilt tranny with the short 5th and an 80% LSD which isn't a big deal at first but does help quite a bit on the tight corners and on hard breaking. Another thing about my car is it's a winner. Mike Weitze drove my car to first place at WS and did a 1:36.6 in the race during summer.

There are places where you can get the cars cheaper but like Joe said they'll be missing a few things. You won't be able to build a car like mine for less. Call or email me for full specs and you'll see what a great deal you'd be getting. Cell 714-366-1389 email [email protected]

[944-Spec#94]

Joe is right on most stuff but a 9k car will be far off from mine which is for sale at $12500.With a 9k car you will get a car set up but with a 100k mile motor just begging to blow.

 

Well not really... 9k may not get as nice a car as Eric's, but it does not mean it is ready blow the engine. Then only weak spot on the engines is the rod bearings. If those are replaced you are fine. The basic blocks are solid and don't need work. My current race motor has 140K on before I start racing it in 2003. It has fresh bottom end bearings and a fresh head as of 2003. Makes solid power and is not ready to blow.

 

A 9k car probalby has a at least the rod bearings done and maybe the head removed and cleaned up. No additional risk of motor problems as compared to any other built motor.

 

A 6k car probably has mystery motor untouched from its street car days.

That is motor that could spin a bearing at any time.

 

In my experience the difference between a 9k car and 12k car is little things like sways (tarret vs weltmeister, custom cage vs bolt in, $600 racing seat vs $1200 racing seat, really nice shiny paint vs old faded paint, fire ext vs fire system, open vs LSD) Many of these things do not make the car go faster (LSD excepted), but can make the ownership experience more fun.

[Spec-944#70]

Joe check around a bit more. Joe's garage sells cars for approx $11.8k this includes basic susp, rod bearings, head freshened, belts and gaskets, Autopower bolt in cage, koni's, welts and TB, basically a turn key car. Tim has about the same deal with his bussiness, AutoSport sold cars at about 12.5 but didn't do so much engine prep unless specified by the cust (at additional cost). Tim includes the short 5th though. (About $800 installed)That's right from the start!! Now add developement time and track time to work out any lingering issues and these cars will probably be O.K. Maybe set aside $1500 for "Oh by the way".

A LSD is going to cost at least $2500 installed plus fixing any worn bearings or synchro's while your in there. If these cars have the original clutch? Another $1000? Now my car looks like a steal!!!

Go and check out http://www.spec-944.com and http://www.comeauracing.com. These cars have now been racing and the talent and developement have come along way. While a 9k car will get you started you will NOT be on the podium. (Unless there are only 3 cars running or your a pro)

[944-Spec#94]

I am not going to say these cars are "EQUAL" to your car but...

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9723

 

This car should work well as sorted car. Not perfect, but should be solid

I'd bet if I had chance to tweak the aligment it I could turn 1:13's at PIR in this car.

 

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9865

This one is probably in the partial prep range. I'd expect it to need work.

 

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9327

Don't really know this history on this one. Rear end may be a bit low & probably needs a t-bar reindex.

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9422

Chas wants ALOT for this car, but it is fast, looks great, and I don't believe has ever missed any track time due to mechanicals in the 4 years it has been running.

[Spec-944#70]

Joe my point was a car with rod bearings, belts and freshened head with the Spec Susp and all the safty gear and things you need to run will cost about 12k. Not 9k. In Jasons car he's giving it away as he has other plans. If he put it all together and put it on a few podiums I'm sure he could get 12k but it seems not many are interested in buying. Look at Joe's (from the SCCA side) his build sheet. He has 5k in parts and none of it is out of the ordinary. Normal stuff to get a car on track. Then add a donor car and labor! Chaz's car is like mine and he wants to get some of his money back. There are several guys who bought cars that were setup but only to have major issues before they even completed 5 weekends. These are 20+ year old cars and they require some attention. But once you get them all worked out they are very reliable as most of our cars are now! But then again we have way more than 12k invested.

If I were to do it all over again I would either buy a car with all the needed work done or start from scratch but rebuild the motor (as I know how to do that now!!), new clutch, radiator setup the susp and strip the car and take care of all the little stuff fromn the get go.

Now if I can just get some much needed track time with Jim Marks I'd be up there. 2:03's at CSW and 1:38's at WS! I remember when those times would win races. Now they're mid packers!!

[944-Spec#94]

Eric I was only pointing out that costs for cars varries. It varries on if it is home built vs shop built. Any time you say "build me a car" it will cost more up front than buying a car someone is selling. Reason is people don't build a car for someone else for nothing. Their labor costs something. Of course with that extra cost comes some piece of mind in the car, but even that does not prevent you from going through a "sorting out" process after the car is freshly built.

 

If you buy a car that has been run & raced from someone getting out it can be cheaper than build from scratch. Now what is a 944 spec car worth? Well in my mind 12k is the limit. No matter how much it costs to build 12k is about top end. We all know you can pour lots of money into a car and get only fraction out a resale.

 

Really 944 spec cars hold their value QUITE well since on the street 12k gets you a NICE 944 TURBO S so building a spec car doubles or tripples the car's value. Plus sell it for what you build it for. That is pretty DARN good from a seller's perspective.

[944spec92]

If I knew then what I know now...

 

I will go on record and say that Eric's car is a bargain at his asking price. A car with a fresh motor that has no issues, all the right stuff to be more than competitive, proven lap times by a proven driver who jumped into the car and in one session turned some fast laps and placed well in a competitive race is quite a car resume. A steal at this asking price. The smart buyer may get a turn-key car, possibly reliable beyond imagination, competive right out of the box, very little dial-in time or cost needed, and can go racing the next available event. What a bargain! OK, maybe they will want to put some of their own flavor and taste (be it Red Bull, Dr. Pepper, or Welches Prune Juice) on it - but that may only be cosmetic.

 

If Eric drops off the scene after he sells his car, I will be bummed since we had some fun dicing in the few weekends my car started and ran OK. My car was a $9k car to start. Since then had mega problems; two lost weekends due to no start problems at the track, later blown main seal, needed new clutch, cracked head that was fixed, then a new complete motor possibly due to bad chip/timing, craked rings. Talk about a bummer. I'm into at over twice the amount and missing most of the race season due to problems. All this after an independent reputable Porsche 944 racing specialist shop pre-buy inspection with dyno runs, compression and leak down test. Bummer that you can never know even after the best efforts.

 

When someone has a chance to buy a good car at .50 on the $ - why build their own? Or pay shop rates if they don't wrench much themselves? Just make sure the car is proven and that the seller is honest.

 

With ideal conditions, podium lap times at Willow in a 944spec will probably need to be in the 1:35's. Very few low buck cars, even well driven will possibly see that. Cars with good (being a matter of debate as to exact type) motors, good suspensions, good settings, minimum weight, and especially good drivers will be leaving the rest of the herd behind. These same cars and drivers are typically the ones with the most testing, most races, and sometimes most or premium money spent.

 

I don't know much but learn everyday. I have Jim Marks, Tim C., and Joe to thank for great guidance, great info, and impressive amount of forum sharing over the past few years. It's a great class, a fun bunch of drivers, a class that pits together, eats together, sleeps together (what happens in the Barbie RV stays in the Barbie RV) and almost best of all no one will ever steer you wrong in the beginning.

 

Best of all? The after sale class support, race event incestual co-mingling, free beer, tire raffles, pit babes (see free beer earlier), and parts sharing needs to be experienced to be believed.

 

Just need to filter all the knowledgeable info and decide on the best course of action for themselves.

 

 

**This was not a paid advertisement for any blue, Red Bull type, 944spec car currently for sale but the hint may be taken by seller. Results may vary. Not FDIC insured. Ginzu knife set not included but 12 volt battery is. Commissions or brokerage fees may be accepted on a 1099 basis or in trade-out for race fuel delivered to a track near me. Blinker fluid extra.

[Candi]

WOW! Thanks for the Plug on Joe's Garage., http://www.Spec-944.com Yes, Joe's car is for sale, and yes he builds them very strong, and...

 

Thanks again!

[Spec-944#70]

Check is in the mail Ray!! And if it sells I won't be going away. I have 2 944's. 1 sits on a trailer and gets used 6-8 weekends a year and I have an S2 that begs to be played with but sits as my Spec car gets priority (after my kids) so 1 or both must go. The wife would like the trailer gone too but I have a plan that gets it out of my driveway and still gives me use of it. Now if we start getting 10+ cars at the events maybe I'll keep the Spec car?? Besides even at $12500 I'm not getting tons of calls.

So Ray when is your car gonna get finished? Will you make BW in Sept?

Also Ray's comment on the FRWilks chip is dead nuts on!! We've had 3 cars go down the blown motor way and we suspect the chip may have been at least part of the problem!! For those newbies coming up DO NOT BUY the FRWilk chip!!! It maybe great for the street but it does not work well for constant high RPM's.

Now back to your previously scheduled programing!!

[Steve S.]

Wow Ray...what an endorsement!

 

I have to say, I am impressed by the support and up front information given by all. Eveyone has their take on it and I can respect all the opinions given. I actually find it all invaluable. Tough call to jump in with both feet right away or wade in the kiddies pool for a little bit until you get used to the temperature of the water.

 

One common theme I have found is "if you want to win"..."if you want to be in the front"..."cars at that price are mid-packers." Let's face it, nobody goes into a race hoping for last place and 2nd place is only the fastest of the loosers. However, there is somewhat of a learning curve and a budget. Most of the time those are directly related.

 

I am really struggling with which way to go, but I now have a great starting point.

[Spec-944#70]

Don't worry Steve we'll take care of you no matter what you decide. Your crash course (no pun intended!) in Spec 944's will begin shortly!! No matter what you get remember it'll fail eventually. And then you'll see your 944 bretheren get you back on the track!!

As Tim would say just get a car and get your license!! And don't beleive all of the rumors about Tim and a thong!! They're not ALL true!! Beside we like newbies!! It keeps me ahead of someone!!

[944-Spec#94]

No matter what you get remember it'll fail eventually. And then you'll see your 944 bretheren get you back on the track!!

 

Well Eric is right on both accounts. No 944 spec car is going to be 100% reliable. Things will fail from time to time as these are 20 year old cars many of which were ready for scrap pile before they got built in to race cars. So no matter how perfect(or expensive) the build up something can fail.

 

So you will need to line a up shop to help out with work or learn to do it yourself with help of the 944 spec community. The great thing about this class is when bad things do happen you competitiors turn in you biggest asset as we will help you repair the car and bring it back out and racing.

 

Show up at a 944 spec race and you never alone. There is ALWAYS some there to lend a hand!

[Utah944]

There are many many opinions about the best way to start in the series. I am a newbie myself and chose the route of buying a cheap car ($1,400) on ebay and knew it would take time and $$ to get it up to speed. I did it that way because I had the guys a Pfadt Race Engineering to tweak the car and to use their shop at discounted prices (mainly beer and pizza). I Going in I knew nothing and I mean nothing about cars but now I actually feel pretty comfortable ripping stuff out. I am still working on the putting it back in part which I think will come. I have a had a great time getting the car up to speed running at DEs and will be in the range of 7K by the time the car races in August at Thunderhill. I did lose one day to a bad sensor but that happens with more expensive cars.

 

Since I do not have my race license (will submit for a PCA license in September) Aaron from Pfadt racing wil be the first to race the rat.

 

With all that said with out advantage of PRE I would recommend a proven car as it gets to the track fast for more seat time. Then again if I blow my motor I don't have as much invested in it.

 

From my experience so far with the group I can not wait to race when there are 10+ 944s on the track. I hope to race one or two a year in AZ and one in Cali and ever race in Utah. I personally don't think there is a "best" way, just pick which one makes sense to you and get on the track.

 

Peace

[Steve S.]

You guys have me all nostrals flaired, fired up.