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Your thoughts on the HP/TQ formulas for another NASA Class


SDR_John

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It looks like the FFR guys are talking (just talk at this point) about adopting a formula similar to that used in AI.

 

Would any of you guys/gals like to offer your thoughts from an "insider"? As someone who has been living with these rules, how has the enforcement of the HP and TQ ratios gone? Do you think it is a better way to equalize the cars, as opposed to requiring "stock" engines (as is the current FFR rule)?

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I always think it's a pain in the ass the day I have to go to the dyno but thats really only once or twice a year.

 

Personaly I think being able to build an FFR with a simple carbed motor instead of the stock EFI would be appealing to people.

 

When are they going to do an unlimited FFR class, high horsepower Cobra replicas running with the AIX cars would be cool?

 

Richard.

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The current FFR engine rules are much closer to CMC than AI, so I would suggest looking at setting an upper HP/Torque limit like CMC has rather than a ratio. One issue in CMC is defining "stock" when it comes to rebuilding a short-block, and without a teardown rule it's meaningless to specify stock internal parts anyway, but the maximum limit takes care of that. Of course, you then get into the whole area under the curve discussion, which is where AI's torque ratio came from, but you have to start somewhere.

 

The AI ratio formula is designed to accommodate a variety of makes and models running at different minimum weight, but with FFRs being a spec chassis, there shouldn't be huge variations in weight from one car to another other than driver and fuel. Seems like the thing to do in FFR would be to set some HP/TQ limits and maybe open it up to a carb option.

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I think the current AI rules are pretty solid. There is a saying "there is more speed in the chasis".... so the HP/TQ rules or a max limit will work for FFR, I think, given that most of those cars are built pretty similar. AI is nice as there is some flexibility in mods you can make. I am not sure how all that will play in FFR, I would think similar. To answer your question, the AI rules work well, as long as you have a pretty honest group. In our last dyno pulls in the West, everyone was good to go. And a couple of drivers/cars volunteered to be bumped up to AIX as they knew their cars were beyond the limits, and/or made changes at the track that they could not verify to remain the rules. That's a pretty honest group....

Andy

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"And a couple of drivers/cars volunteered to be bumped up to AIX as they knew their cars were beyond the limits"

 

You think these guys would have bumped themselves if the dyno wasn't there? NOT!

 

If there is no dyno at the track then be prepared for certain cars to be faster than normal. We haven't had a dyno yet at a Mid-West event and there is lots of suspicion of drivers cheating. I personally can't wait for Nationals and a dyno all warmed up in the paddock!

 

The AI rules only work if there is a dyno at every event.

 

See you there,

 

Sidney Franklin

Midwest AI #64

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Sydney,

 

Are you in a different MidWest region?

 

I haven't heard of any suspicion of cheating toward any of our group!

 

Richard.

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Sydney,

 

Are you in a different MidWest region?

 

I haven't heard of any suspicion of cheating toward any of our group!

 

Richard.

 

I haven't heard anyone directly accused. However, any time someone dominates a race or has awesome lap times, there is always going to be someone who suspects something. I'd have to agree that the only time you can know is to have a dyno present. Even then it's not 100% full proof. Nearly everytime we have had one in the past few years, someone has been over the limit. So, the assumption is that it could be happening when the dyno is not present, but how can we know. At this level of racing you either play fair or or you don't. There is always going to be simple ways to cheat the system, if someone diecides to do it. I'm sure more frequent and more indepth checking of car set ups would help, but I don't know that the resources area available..

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Richard,

 

Maybe not "lots" but some. And some in my book is too much. If there isn't a dyno at the track it allows drivers to tweek their cars. It also is a check for those that don't realize they're over. I was with Bob last fall when he dyno his car in Peoria and was comfortably under. I was there when he was DQ'd when he was over. We had no idea that his motor would loosen up as much as it did and make substantially more HP and Torque

 

The dyno is part of the rules in American Iron and needs to be at the track.

 

Sidney Franklin

Midwest AI #64

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Sidney,

 

No one is disputing that a Dyno at every event would be good.

 

I am however surprised at your inference that the Midwest is a hot bed of cheating allogations.

 

Unfortunately I have not spent much time with you at the track and hopefully we can socialize a little more (even if you don't drive a Ford) but I simply have not heard that anyone has those feelings.

 

I have really enjoyed racing in the Midwest because we operate with a level of trust that our neighboring region has not.

 

I do not for one minute believe anyone in the Midwest is willfully cheating.

 

Richard.

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I'm not sure which is more surprising: that there are allegations of cheating in the Midwest region, or that the Midwest region believes the Ohio-Indiana region is an even bigger hotbed of mistrust and allegation. This must all be simmering deep under the surface, because it doesn't seem apparent to me at all.

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Sidney - Wrong. There is no dyno at Infineon / Sears (that I am aware of). At least none that we had planned to use at any point there. Maximum Motorsports could have easily changed their computer without anyone knowing about it, yet they informed us voluntarily. Dyno's charts that I saw from other drivers I saw were in line with the rules, but at BW, the dyno there were giving various results, some up and some down from what guys dynoed at home, so we dont believe anyone was miliciously braking rules.

 

As far as the rules working only at tracks where there is a dyno. Hmm. This is a dark way to view it. I pesonally believe that most people have a sense of honor. I personally know the AI west guys, and I know they could cheat but dont. I have seen them making adjustments, declaring them and getting tech reviews to ensure they are not braking rules. I am sure the other regions must work like this also.

 

But yes, if a guy wants to cheat, and win doing it, he has to live with that.

 

andy

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I'm not sure which is more surprising: that there are allegations of cheating in the Midwest region, or that the Midwest region believes the Ohio-Indiana region is an even bigger hotbed of mistrust and allegation. This must all be simmering deep under the surface, because it doesn't seem apparent to me at all.

 

Sorry Matt for my post in the other forum. I should have clarified it as Ohio region a couple of years ago. Let's talk this weekend. I wouldn't say it was a Hotbed, more of a witch hunt.

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There are other ways to keep track for the cars perfomance and that is with statistics. I keep a log over every driver and every track we race, and if someone suddenly is a lot faster on a track then they normally are, then he is under suspecion and have to dyno the car again. Also a suspicious car is flagged and will get extra attention. Dyno is just one of many tools we use.

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There is a good way to settle any "dispute" in the Midwest and the Ohio/Indiana regions. Since it is a crossover event and the dyno will be there - everyone bring your car to Mid-Ohio this weekend.

 

As for throwing up red flags - sometimes that can be done in haste. Sometimes good lap times are a matter of who you are playing with at the time. Last year my Saleen (which I run in TT) turned a 1:20.4 at Putnam Park. I have not turned any better than a 1:22 any other time at the track. That particular session I was playing with one of the AI cars. Because he was behind me, it pushed me a little harder because I wanted to see if I could keep him behind me. Reality here is that the car should be faster this year because of some additional mods, horsepower, and torque. It was not faster this year, in fact nearly 4 seconds slower. I'd be careful aboout throwing flags up just because a car (or driver) happens to have a really good session.

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I heard a rumor that there's a guy in Texas who admitted to running a flip-chip a while back. :(

 

C'mon Matt, why post this crap here? You HEARD a RUMOR??? :roll:

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I heard a rumor that there's a guy in Texas who admitted to running a flip-chip a while back.

 

No driver admitted to running a flip-chip. There was discussion that a switch could be used to change ignition timing for dyno to track differences, but no switch has been found in any car that is used in that manner. I would know since I was part of that conversation.

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I heard a rumor that there's a guy in Texas who admitted to running a flip-chip a while back.

 

No driver admitted to running a flip-chip. There was discussion that a switch could be used to change ignition timing for dyno to track differences, but no switch has been found in any car that is used in that manner. I would know since I was part of that conversation.

 

How about a CMC car running an E cam, or was that out in Cali?

 

 

you guys need to calm down, this is all about fun remember?

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Guys-

 

Even if a dyno is not at the track, there are plenty of ways to check it out later using tamper-resistant tape and other sealing techniques. However, I freely admit this is not a perfect system. You're all correct that there are plenty of ways to cheat that we may or may not be able to check, so the honor of the competitors is an important part of the equation. I have seen many creative ways to do goofy stuff on all sort of racecars to get more speed and it never ceases to amaze me what folks will do to win at all costs.

 

As for allegations of cheating, oy vey am I not going to touch that one with a 10 meter cattle prod. As has been astutely pointed out, let's worry about the fun and leave it to the tech crews to catch any gobblers who are cheating in order to take home a win that is worthless because it was acheived without honor.

 

-JWL

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Jason - ya, I know Grigg's is there..... I have been in there shop a couple of times.... I have walked through most of the shops in the race-shop alley back there....great place to walk through.... I guess I more meant with the small group we have, it was not going to be necessary.... The racing in the west has been pretty tight, qual times have been within 100th of a second between cars at times, between Gary, Ryan W and myself (and others) and I know my car is like 10 to 1 ratio....

.... but I am like the Boris Said of AI, that's how I can keep up with those guys.... ha.......

 

xoxoxoox

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Oh ya, Jason, the " xoxoxox" was not for you, I was flipping between screens and messages with the wife and the forum.... So dont be thinking I am gonna make out with you or something next time I see you.....

 

I am a pitcher, not a catcher..... ha...

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I heard a rumor that there's a guy in Texas who admitted to running a flip-chip a while back.

 

the flip chip rumor was BS. It was merely a diablo chip that was used for one race that DID NOT have flip on the fly capabilities.....

 

Now if you want someone from Texas to come up and whip all your butts at Nationals....just find me the money!

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