Lexan Windshield

[Norman#99]

Not sure what a Prius is, but I did have green 911sc for 12 years. I had Hoosiers on it twice and corded both sets in one day, so, for financial reasons had to stop using them. Nothing wrong with Hoosiers, I just like to drive sideways a lot.

 

Norman #99

[Tim Comeau]

I just weighed a bare windshield and it was 25 lbs exactly. Pretty much what Ray found.

I can see the wisdom in allowing lexan, but have been against it in the past because of the desire to keep things simple and keep the cars as equal as possible.

I personally hate working with Lexan because of its special care and inferior clarity. It is, however, safer in terms of shatterproofing.

So, what's the performance advantage, if any, in removing the difference in weight from the top of the car? Unknown.

I would expect you could affect more roll rate change ( CG) in our cars by swapping to a 13 lb motorcycle battery?

IF we were to include this option in the rules, or (having the same effect), not disallow it, lexan thickness requirements might make the weight difference a wash. Then it would come down to a choice of safety?

The reason we agreed to allow welding our cages to the A and B pillars, even though it made the chassis stiffer, was for increased safety, which I have a hard time arguing against.

IF we were to allow this change immediately, it wouldn't be a problem as long as the NASA Series Directors and POC club racers agreed that it wasn't a performance advantage. Then, the mod would fall under the "general rules."

At this point, I could go for this rules "allowance" suggestion. No need to change the written rules.

Somebody tell me what the biggest reason is for NOT allowing this?

[944-Spec#94]

Somebody tell me what the biggest reason is for NOT allowing this?

 

Well...

 

Here are 3.

 

1) Not Stock... One MORE thing we need to prep to.

2) Potential or percieved advantage due to lower CG.

3) Another rules change.

 

 

 

Tim...

I rather not see us change the rules on this for the 3 reasons above, but if the support FOR a change is as strong as it appear from the drivers then it probably is the right thing to do.

Let me talk to some more of the Az guys to get their reaction before we do anything however. I do think that if we decide to "Allow it" we say it clearly in the rules at our first change to update them. Otherwise it will be unclear to new folks building cars or for those that only race a little bit and don't read the forums.

[Apex SPG.com]

I would like to commend this group for keeping the cost of both building and racing cars low. This is the very reason I am currently building a car. My own experience in building an I class 944 and then an F class 944 for PCA racing has shown me just how crazy the price of building a car can go if the rulesmakers are not careful. However, in the case of the Lexan windshield, the difference in weight was only a couple of pounds as compared with the stock windshield. Prior to installing a Lexan windshield, I had purchased several glass windshields. There is no doubt that the Lexan was less costly over the long run. Once again, let me thank you keeping a tight hold on the basic premise of low cost racing, while at the same time considering ideas which in the long run will save participants money.

[Packfill]

4. Is this a slippery slope? How about Lexan Back Hatches. Clearly they are heavier and more dangerous than the windshields.

 

5. More cost, something that Tim has (single handedly) been fighting against. Does anyone know what it costs to buy and INSTALL a lexan windshield? Installed improperly they are dangerous. Installed properly, pretty pricey. Currently I am paying $150 for glass.

 

6. POC rules are closed for this year. We would be unable to officially include them until 2008.

[944-Spec#94]

Let me set one thing straight...

 

Lexan will NEVER be allowed for rear hatches. Nope. Over my dead body!

 

They for the most part don't break or are subject to repeated failure so are in an entirely different class than the windshields.

 

 

Cost to install lexan windshields? I don't know.

[Apex SPG.com]

The cost to install my lexan windshield was exactly the same as replacing my glass windshield.

[uberklasse]

I haven't been that active on the board, but I said it earlier.....LEXAN, LEXAN, LEXAN

 

Cost is close if not the same but factor in TIME. If we factor that in, glass is a lot more expensive...1 to 2 replacements a season is time AND aggrevation.

[944spec92]

Strictly from a safety perspective, if and when something disastorous were to happen that involved a problematic glass windshield in this class and litigious attorneys were to present this forum topic as evidence of possible neglect by series officials and/or directors for not allowing the proven safer lexan application, I sure would not want to be held personally liable (free advice here- double check your homeowners insurance to confirm that your liabilitity coverage includes non-profit or volunteer work) no matter how many releases or waivers were signed.

 

1. Looks like most members support such a rule.

2. Safer.

3. Keeps potential long-term costs down.

4. Gives participants choice of replacing with either glass or lexan when the time comes. Choice of cost, safety, and convenience is strictly theirs.

5. Possibly no perceived performance advantage other than for safety.

6. Maybe this NASA rule allowance will get more NASA 944spec entries involved?

7. How difficult can it be for POC to follow suit in a timely manner for safeties sake?

8. No need to cloud the windshield issue by presenting rear hatch comments when that has never been discussed or proposed.

 

Thank you Tim and Joe for seeing clearly on what may be a pane to others.

[PeanutinCA]

As mentioned already, I'm $500 into windshields already with the current one having a rock chip on one side and a crack in front of the driver. So, if and when the current screen needs to be replaced, then it would be much more financially sensible to replace with Lexan. I can't beleive anyone who's complained in the past about broken windshields and 'WHO" was responsible for them, would be arguing against this allowance. Sorry, but that's just absurd!

 

As for POC, I'm sure a phone call to the powers saying we are going to allow this would be sufficient. Plus, if nobody protests it in POC, then nobody will be DQ'd for it.

 

And if anyone changes their glass for lexan without prior damage, will clearly be chasing an advantage. But, just let them know you think they suck as a driver because they have to have 'advantages' in their car, rather than be able to 'drive' to victory through talent.

 

P.D.

[mfoley]

Why are we heading down the slippery slope again?

 

Leave the rules alone.

 

However, if we do change to Lexan I'd vote to allow the rear hatch to be lexan too. Sorry Joe.

[PeanutinCA]

How is this a slippery slope? Please explain. Nobody is asking for rear or side glass to be replaced. Infact, who has ever taken a rock to the rear or side glass and needed to replace? On the other hand, how many have had to replace their windshield? Add up the money spent on front glass for one person and I bet it's more than any money spent replacing side or rear glass for on track incidents.

 

This is not for performance. It could have saved my about $250 already, and another $250 when I have to replace my current windshield.

 

I would 100% absolutely bolt on a 20# weight to my roof/roll cage in place of using lexan over glass. Hell, I'd bolt on 30 #'s for all I care. This to me seems like people banging their head on the wall and asking, why does my head hurt? We keep spending money on new glass and having it break. Where is the sense in that?

 

P.D.

[genikz]

If anybody is worried about scratches in Lexan windshields, a little searching discovered this:

 

http://www.protint.com/item468355.ctlg

 

Pro-Tint Inc makes windshield tear-offs for NASCAR.

 

Obviously $80 for one tear off is steep, but it would probably last a whole season before you'd have to replace it. And it's custom fit for 944's.

 

 

 

I'm not connected to Pro-Tint Inc in any way, shape or form.

[PDenbigh]

And another FYI on scratches, I'm using Percy's Speedglass lexan product and am really impressed at how durable it is. I had to custom make my windshield from a 4x5 piece, it cut wonderfully, bends well, and hasn't scratched yet (almost one season in).

 

(I had to replace my windshield because I forgot to latch my hoodpins . A replacement glass for my car was aroudn $300 installed, my lexan windsheild came to around $200 installed... FYI)

[944-Spec#94]

Strictly from a safety perspective, if and when something disastorous were to happen that involved a problematic glass windshield in this class and litigious attorneys were to present this forum topic as evidence of possible neglect by series officials and/or directors for not allowing the proven safer lexan application, I sure would not want to be held personally liable (free advice here- double check your homeowners insurance to confirm that your liabilitity coverage includes non-profit or volunteer work) no matter how many releases or waivers were signed.

 

Ray I think the safety thing is way over blown. There are many racing bodies both club and pro that require the stock glass windshields to remain.

 

I believe the ONLY reason we would allow it is for cost reasons.

 

Constantly replacing windshields is a pain and has cost to it. That in my mind is the only thing lexan has going for it.

 

The slippery slope is one main reason I feel we should stay with glass.

 

Lets get some hard numbers on costs.

 

I remember the my windshield went replaced it back in 2000 was $135 installed, but that was the early car and with used glass. I believe the late car would cost $210 for used glass.

[mfoley]

Dilly, did I hit a hot button .

 

I think the focus on the rules should be NOT to change them at all. The only exception that I would concede is safety. I wouldn't even change them for reliability because we've put enough race hours on these cars and these rules, to baseline the reliability.

 

It costs money to race. My late model windshield was $175 when I replaced it a month ago. Jim just paid $150. If I replace a windshield per year I'm not going to worry about it and neither should you.

 

We have a good set of rules and they are what they are. I think stability of the rules is far more important than saving a few bucks.

[schwank]

Please, oh please, tell me where you got a late 944 windshield for 175 bucks... was this used glass you installed yourself?

 

That's a cheaper price than I've even seen early model windscreens for...

[C.Plavan]

I'll add my .02 cents from an outsider racer.

I do not have a race 944 (yet) but do have a few 911's we race. Not that anyone cares what I say, but Lexan makes sense. We have it in all of our race 911's. It saves you tons of money AND is safer. I would not recommend getting less the 1/4 inch. It flexes.

I was more concerned (and dumbfounded) about the 944 spec rules when It was brought to my attention that you guys do not use race fuel cells....because of the cost....

Please error on the side of safety when making rules. Go for lexan

Edited August 23, 2006 by Guest

[mweeks]

FYI;

 

SPEEDGLASS (Lexan)

PREMOLDED / CUT 1" OVERSIZED /

SPEEDGLASS COATING

 

1/4" is $400

 

You trim it and install it. Thinner is cheaper 1/8" and 3/16" $300-350 respectively.

[C.Plavan]

We got our lexan from:

http://www.racingshields.com/index_files/sportscarpricing.htm

no trimming required

Edited August 23, 2006 by Guest

[mweeks]

Are Fuel Cells prohibited?

[Cory M]

Let me know where you got one for $175 too, I just paid $240 for mine.

 

Generally I don't think the rules should be changed at all, but I can see how having a lexan windshield can save everyone money and hassle down the road. However, I think losing close to 20 pounds up high and in front is definitely a performance enhancement. There are guys going as far as gutting their mirrors to save a couple of pounds so obviously being able lose nearly 20 pounds from an ideal location is an advantage (review some of those old posts about weight savings). I doubt very many drivers will actually be faster as a result of this though, you'd have to be right on the limit, but theoretically the advantage is there.

 

Personally I think it will save everyone money in the long run so I don't care if lexan windshields become legal (and I have brand new glass).

 

If people feel strongly about the performance advantage from lexan one possible solution would be to make everyone running a lexan shield to also run a full sized battery. This would put a similar amount of weight back in nearly the same place and essentially get rid of the lexan advantage.

[PeanutinCA]

No, no, not not not at all Mark. It's just, as someone who has been unlucky to suffer 3 broken glass windshields now, I'd prefer not to suffer a 4th. I (and others) asked for this some time ago. So this is nothing new. But it was looked over. Sorry, but your argument seems like a waste of money. It's a bit like saying, "we know that stock headers crack, but we are not going to allow aftermarket ones". Many people 'asked' to keep open header rules because the stock ones crack and will get more costly as they become harder to get. Or say, if it were a rule that you had to use stock rotors and pads, only to find out that you constantly warp rotors (aka Boxster Spec). Why would you leave something in place that you 'know' is and will continue to cost people more money? If you (people, not Mark) feel strongly about it, apply a penalty. Make it a deterant to 'think' you will get an advantage by applying some other disadvantage to it. i.e. adding weight back somewhere up high. I personally (others may think different) think it is silly to keep spending money on something we know breaks. Especially when I had people get 'just a little' testy with me when rocks from my car came up and cracked/chipped theirs. Like I could do anything about that? Well, I guess I can, I can ask that we allow Lexan and if they have it, there wont be a problem.

 

It's actually not in the 'spirit' of keeping the class cheap by mandating that we have to use a product that will break when we can replace it with something that wont. And quite frankly, there are bigger advantages to be had by other rules. My vote is for Laxn with weight added up high to take away the 'perceived' advantage at a minimum.

 

P.D.

[Packfill]

Lets go back through al these posts and ask each individual in favor of Lexan, how much they actually know about Lexan WIndscreens and whether or not they have ever run them...

 

I called three freinds today whom each run race teams, and although theyhad seperate ideas on somethings they did agree on these...

 

1) Lexan scratches easily, needs special care and they each estimated the average racer will go through a minimun of two windshields per season due to visablilty...

 

2) Lexan is expensive. Glass windsheilds DO cost $150. IF anyone is paying more, call me. I am in OC. If they are $150-$175 here, they cant be much more elsewhere...

 

3) Lexan is unusable in the rain... All you see is a rainbow.... Yes, we run in the rain! Are you prepared to swap windshields in case of rain?

 

4) To install a Lexan WIndsheild properly, it should have a fabricated center support, so something that hits it doesnt enter the cockpit... Get ready to write a check!!!

 

I will do whatever, but the second this is approved it will be percieved as an advantage and everyone will go get one... now multiply the cost by 40 cars or 80....

 

$400 plus installation, and this is cheaper...how?

Edited August 24, 2006 by Guest

[944 Swede]

I agree with Jim 100%. Again, a windshield can be purchased and installed for less than $200 and a windshild can be protected with a "paint protection film" for longer life. Leave the rules alone!

 

Reading between the lines it is becoming clear to me we're starting to look like a bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off, a free for all attitude, everyone panicking as soon as a suggestion is made which is a true indication of lack of faith in leadership. Which is really starting to upset me so stay tuned for a proposal on some major changes.