Lexan Windshield

[944spec92]

Thank you Cory for posting educational info on lexan windshields and exploring sources. When lexan windshields are allowed it be good for those who choose so to have an option as to where they prefer to buy them and at what cost. As long as they meet, say a 1/4" thickness minimum and have proper retainers.

 

As posted on the other lexan thread, http://www.lindseyracing.com offers 1/4" lexan windshields for just over $400. Discount potential for 944spec has not been explored.

 

As to the weight issue, seems like we should consider that anyone currently running a lightweight and more expensive battery in the stock location should add additional weight high up also. Oh wait, they just have to meet the 2600 pound minimum weight. Hey guess what, battery size and battery weight is also a choice.

 

On another thought, I weigh 230 pounds. Some of my peers only weigh 180 pounds, some only 160. So, me thinks that since I already have 50 pounds more, some of it up high (big shoulders that is) and all of it on the left side of the car, thus everyone's corner balances should be way off as mine are. Everyone should also pay more for alignments and corner balancing since my alignment and corner balance billable time is higher and more difficult to even get close to where my light weight friends are dialed in to. Lucky for them but really unfair to me and the rest of us clydesdales. But again, all of us have to meet 2600 pound minimum weight.

 

And a simple approach for those who prefer no rule changes. Just keep your dog-eared 2006 rule pages forever and use them as your guide. Your car is done, it is developed, you will have no additonal costs and you won't ever have to worry about those who may prefer to be safer and evolve with technology such as lexan, and hey, a HANS device, and oh boy this is a good one, on-board fire systems. But, those are all choices we make, or at least hope to be able to make. That is all we ask for, a choice.

[Zvoiture]

Run stock glass? Battery in passenger floorboard. No extra penalty beyond the 2600 lbs.

[Cory M]

I don't really feel strongly either way about Lexan, and I suppose making cars with Lexan carry ballast would just complicate the rules in the longterm so maybe it is a bad move. But to pretend that removing 18+ pounds of weight up high isn't a performance enhancement is stupid, especially when I've read about the lengths some people have gone to to lower the weight of their cars (gutting electric mirrors, removing heatshields, undercoating, etc). It isn't a big advantage, but it is an advantage. I've got new glass now and if lexan is legal when it breaks, I'll switch for the added durability and reduced weight.

 

I prefer to have choices on where to buy stuff too and I only mentioned the Spectr thing because the guy I spoke to seemed really eager to work with 944Spec and said he could come up with a product that costs near what we are paying for glass replacements (at this cost it would be uncoated and therefore less scratch resistent though).

[944-spec#09]

My 2 cents:

I tend to favor not changing the rules to allow lexan. As mentioned above, it is a significant weight advantage. If short shifter kits which I still believe give virtually no performance advantage and save engine/transmissions by giving a cleaner more defined shift pattern were disallowed for their "performance advantage" surely 18 lbs of high weight should be also. As far as reduced cost, it sounds like putting a film on the glass is a cheaper solution that saves windshields and doesn't violate the rules.

[944 Swede]

Steve,

Are you saying short shift kits ARE allowed...?

[PeanutinCA]

Should we rule out the Lindsey front sway bar that is 18lbs lighter (up front weight versus rear, weight balance) at a cost of about $650? More expensive than the Glass. An apparent 'advantage' and 'must have' seeing as people with them have won races and that's the new standard for deciding what mods are necessary? Did everyone run out and buy the Lindsey front bar? Come on guys, we allowed A and B pillar welding, I didn't see everyone run out and get that? Did people win because of it? I thought it was posted by someone that the weight of 1/4 lexan wsa about the same as glass? If not, put a weight penalty in having to 'place weight in a certain place". Not adding more to the 2600 limit, just to cover any confusion.

 

LSD's, they are an advantage. That is very clear. Having 18 less up to (windshield) versus 18 lbs less down below (sway bar), about as measurable as the A and B pillar welding. An aftermarket header, not an advantage, unless you combine it with other things to increase your HP across the curve, then it's an advantage. It's like Mikael says, it's all the things combined that win races. I'm sorry to egos but, take away some of the hp and the LSD's from 'some' drivers and they would not be running up front. Put a Lexan windshield in 'those' peoples cars would NOT put them back up front winning races.

 

If you want to holt the 'buying' what the 'race winners' have. Then tighten the rules further. Name single Header brands, single Sway bar brand/model, no hollow torsion bars, single shock brand, stock intakes, stock mufflers, no LSD's, no bushings. Because these are all things that 'winners' have. Oh I need to go further, no A and B pillar welding (except Mikael, he didn't do that), no sealing off front body panels (headlights etc.), no oil coolers, name a single torsion bar size. Absurd right! I mean seriously, your worried about guys installing a $4-600 lexan but have no problem spending;

 

LSD : $2,500-$2,000

Front sway bar : $650

Bushings : $400

Headers : $650

Intake / muffler : $100

Dyno Tuning for all above : ?

Engine rebuilds : $4-5,000

Engine trays (Cal Spdwy) : $50

Small Battery : $80

Coil Wires : $100

Head shaving : $1,000+

 

You can point to at least 2 people in the paddock, winning and losing who have spent money on any of these above to go faster. But that extra $200 to not break another glass windshield is the straw that's breaking the camels back?

 

P.D.

[Spec-944#70]

Lets not forget the AERO mirror fiasco!!! Like Mike said in another post. You should concentrate on getting cars on the grid and stop worrying about stuff that just doesn't matter!! 18 lbs of weight?? Give me a break!! Like anyone here would notice that difference. Our cars weigh 2600 lbs. (period!!) None of us are pro's or will ever be one!! Just get 20 car grids and have fun!!! I know most of the guys wouldn't have the balls to say the reason they lost the race was because the other driver had Lexan!! Maybe running with one mirror or turning your headlights off during a night race (to increase aero) should have been protested too!!

Get cars on the grid!!!

[944-Spec#94]

Steve,

Are you saying short shift kits ARE allowed...?

 

NO!

He said since they are disallowed so should Lexan!

[944-Spec#94]

Dylan,

You bring up some good points. I tend to think that more and more we need to work TIGHTEN the rules rather than create more allowances.

 

You mentioned the following...

 

LSD : $2,500-$2,000

Front sway bar : $650

Bushings : $400

Headers : $650

Intake / muffler : $100

Dyno Tuning for all above : ?

Engine rebuilds : $4-5,000

Engine trays (Cal Spdwy) : $50

Small Battery : $80

Coil Wires : $100

Head shaving : $1,000+

 

Lets look at these from the perspective of a guy building a top notch no expense spared car with a guy building a basic yet competitive car. (not taking bargan basement here, just within a budget.

 

The top notch guy will be doing all of what you listed above.

PLUS probably doing a few more things. Lexan becomes the next "must do"

 

Look at the budget racer that wants to be competitive

LSD- > Nice to have, but maybe not right away

Sway bar -> Probaby Weltmeister so saves the $$

Bushings -> Well here is the kicker... stock bushings need to be replaced anyway due to age and delrin and poly bushings are great replacements. Race cars take abuse I can tell you from first hand experience on steel from A-arm cars they need the delrin crossmember bushings. Everything else is crap an can't take the loading. Cost for this higher than I'd like, but given they work I can't complain

 

headers -> Stock headers make solid power

Intake/Muffler -> Stock intakes seem to work really well (probably the best) and even the stock muffler is pretty good. Not essential at all to have aftermarket.

 

Dyno tuning. Well you can't stop folks from putting cars on the dyno and allowing some minor AFM tuning is smart to me as it ensures we keep these cars at the air A/F mixture to prevent headgasket failures. If we had gaskets poping each week the class would not last long.

 

Engine rebuilds.

- You state $4-5000, but you can rebuild an engine competitively for far less. Sure some guys may spend that, but it does not gain you hp. Plus for those so inclined you can always build one at home. Since there are no tricks allowed an "at home" build done well to the book is the same as a "shop build". Other nice thing is the bores on these engines are pretty strong so tend to last quite a while.

 

Engine tray ... $50, but hey these are STOCK parts that alot of cars had. They also allow the radiator to work more efficiently.

 

Smaller battery - $80... you can run a small battery for $30 (lawnmower) or stock size for $40 or fancy small batter for $80. These are consumables anyway.

 

Coil wires...

Stock aftermarket ignition wires are $100 even for street cars. There are two choices when doing wires. Stock $100 replacements or you can buy cheaper wire and make you own. The cost in these comes from the Beru end fittings and these last a long time. You can with crimpers replace the wire and simple reuse the old Beru ends at they screw on . I probably need to do that in my race car.

 

Head shave.

$1000, but I know places it costs far less. Simple stock valve work and shave to flat (not max compression) is all you need.

 

My point with all this is you talk about all this expense and it you want a "no expense spared" car then you are probably right. For a competitive build certainly not.

[944-Spec#94]

Now with respect to lexan.

 

I am getting more strongly against it given all you posted. There are a few things in our rules we probably should not have allowed to be free, but we do.

 

LSD and Headers are two the come to mind right off the bat. However given the fact that so many have Non-stock parts in these areas it becomes hard to remove these once allowed. Gain or no gain cost be damned they are all legal. If you are doing a build that intends to be the "best" then you are going to look at these.

 

Lets consider lexan now. Hmm... if allowed lexan may save 12-18lbs up high and in front. Great place to save weight thus it becomes one of those "must do" for a top notch no expense spared car. Irrespective of it true impact it would be on that list. I'd expect see plenty of perfectly good stock glass windshields get tossed of we were to allow lexan.

 

Then the cost between those "budget" guys and the "top notch" guys grows by an additional $400 or so. So while their may be worse things we allow in the rules, just because we screwed those up does NOT mean we should allow more screw ups. Or look at it another way. What happens if we find that in 1 year the guys with lexan win and the guys with glass do not? Even if it not lexan doing it we can get into a big argument about stopping the use of lexan. As we know with the headers it is really hard to take something away from people, better to have never allowed it in the first place.

 

Therefore I feel it is in our best interest as a series to NOT ALLOW LEXAN in the windshields at all.

[Tim Comeau]

Ok, gentlemen. (Dang, no ladies yet)

 

We've all had our say on this matter. I believe we've looked at it from all the angles, that is, safety, initial cost and cost savings, installation, performance advantage, NASA CCR's and POC GCR's.

It's all been said. Let's give it a rest.

I'd like to confer with the other NASA Series Directors and reach a consensus we can all live with.

[944-Spec#94]

I'd like to confer with the other NASA Series Directors and reach a consensus we can all live with.

 

Tim,

I will send you, Ken and Chuck and Email tonight. We should set-up a time telecon about this. Details wil be in the email.