Lexan Windshield

[Spec-944#70]

Wow very good arguements against!! I'm not sure anymore. Read the rules stability posts and see maybe we should get insync with the Cup guys on the East Coast and make 1 National class while we're talking about rules changes. Then maybe we'll get 15+ cars on the starting grid like they do!! I'd rather spend some money to make some changes that'll get more cars out to actually race!! Well that and coaching lessons from Jim!!

Now is the time to act before it all gets tossed!!!

[legoland951]

I am not sure where you guys are getting your windshields. Pick Your Parts and Ecology Auto Wrecking in Wilmington both have small shops in their parking lots installing windshields for early and late cars (they have one size fitting both) for $135 installed NEW but no antenna. Also, I have tried putting a hammer through a stock windshield and it takes a tremendous amount of force for anything to get through the plastic between the glass layers. The reason why they use safety glass for the front windshield is so no big pieces will break off and go through your face/neck. I am not sure about Lexan but if they do break off in large pieces, 1/4 inch large pieces can do some damage if it hits you the right way.

[mfoley]

I think the problem is we are straying from our philosophy. We need to bubble the rules argument back up and rededicate ourselves to our principles. To get people to finish their cars and get out and race, we must NOT change the rules, or even talk about changing the rules anymore. Our version of Spec is a great concept and we need to stay the course.

 

Dilly - Lexan maybe a little cheaper and it may not be. I don't want to explore it because I want absolute stability with the rules... the rules that we have now.

 

I'm heading to Laguna but when I get back I'll look up the service that came to my house and installed a windshield without an antenna in my late model car for $175.

 

Mikael - I'll call you from the road later today.

 

I'm out.

[DavidH]

Jim makes some very good points. It sounds like it may not be the most effective solution. Mikael's suggestion of putting a film to help protect the glass may reduce the potential for cracking.

 

I do think that discussion is very important though on any topic or suggestion. Without any discussion on ideas or proposed rules we as participants are not empowered and can be impacted.

 

We must make sure that we have a system for rule changes or proposed rule changes that includes participants viewpoints. We should also see if there is a way to make sure that there is some sort of consistancy between the different organizations. Just stating the obvious...

[Apex SPG.com]

Lets go back through al these posts and ask each individual in favor of Lexan, how much they actually know about Lexan WIndscreens and whether or not they have ever run them...

 

I called three freinds today whom each run race teams, and although theyhad seperate ideas on somethings they did agree on these...

 

1) Lexan scratches easily, needs special care and they each estimated the average racer will go through a minimun of two windshields per season due to visablilty...

 

2) Lexan is expensive. Glass windsheilds DO cost $150. IF anyone is paying more, call me. I am in OC. If they are $150-$175 here, they cant be much more elsewhere...

 

3) Lexan is unusable in the rain... All you see is a rainbow.... Yes, we run in the rain! Are you prepared to swap windshields in case of rain?

 

4) To install a Lexan WIndsheild properly, it should have a fabricated center support, so something that hits it doesnt enter the cockpit... Get ready to write a check!!!

 

I will do whatever, but the second this is approved it will be percieved as an advantage and everyone will go get one... now multiply the cost by 40 cars or 80....

 

$400 plus installation, and this is cheaper...how?

 

I don't want to offend anyone here, but there is a lot of mis information in the above statement that I just can't ignore. I am currently building my 3rd 944 based car. I have been racing these cars since the late 1980's in SCCA, PCA and soon NASA. I have used both glass windshields and Lexan windshields. I do have experience with both types of windshields.

 

(item1: minimum 2 per year) My last Lexan windshield was 5 years old when I sold the car. The new owner was still using it until a couple of weeks ago when he totaled the car at Mosport (check out the video on the web - car #94 944s2 at the PCA race). In other words, you will not go through several lexan windshields each year.

 

(item 2: lexan is expensive) Yes the lexan does cost more to purchase, but with proper care, it lasted me until I sold the car. As a result, lexan was a better value and cheaper in the long run.

 

(item 3: can't use lexan in the rain) I live and race in the midwest and we race in the rain regularly. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR LEXAN WINDSHIELD IN ORDER TO RACE IN THE RAIN! Most lexan windshields get scratched when people accidently turn on the windshield wipers while the windshield is dry. To eliminate that possibility, I take my wipers off (5 minute job) and only install them if the weather looks like rain.

 

(item 4: lexan needs a center support) My lexan windshield was 1/4" thick and did not need a center support. I will agree with you that the thinner lexan will need a support. The key to lexan longevity is to wait until the windshield is wet before you start the windshield wipers.

 

Once again, I am not trying to anger anyone here. However, the reason I am building a 944 spec car is because I prefer to race on a budget. In the long run the lexan was cheaper. And by the way, the difference in weight from a 1/4 lexan vs a glass windshield was so small that I was truely surprised. I thought the lexan would be significatly lighter but it was not.

 

I hope other people who have actually installed the lexan windshields will chime with their experiences. Once again, I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings but my experience was significantly different. In any case, thanks to 944 spec for coming up with a cost effective way to go racing!

[schwank]

This is certainly an interesting conversation on the merits and downsides of lexan.

 

As one of the many who is currently building a car to spec rules, I understand the discussion of how rule changes could affect builders. I don't live anywhere near the core of the 944 spec series and would have to put on many miles to meet up for even a single race. I'm looking at heavy DE use before it ever sees a spec race. For now I want to stay street legal, so I want to go with glass. But for track only, there's no question I would want to go to lexan.

 

I also understand that some may think it is a competitive benefit to loose a few pounds, but until we get a definite weight comparison, I don't think it is fair to say that weight savings will be a motivator for many. Heck I guarantee that any of you with glass windows would annhilate me on track even if I had full lexan windows. As another poster said - until you are on the limit, it won't make a difference. Besides, many of you are talking about having ballast anyway to make weight.

 

I also have had to deal with trying to plan for my windscreen replacement, as the existing window in mine is all cracked up. I tried to have it replaced once already but the glass company screwed up and brought an early window. After calling around town, I haven't found a price anywhere close to even DOUBLE the $175 another poster mentioned for a late glass window - everywhere is over 400 installed. If that's the case, I'm taking that $400 and ordering one of the plexi windows linked above, rules be damned. If I'm looking at spending the cash either way, it doesn't raise my build cost at all really to go lexan, so the cost of buildout options is not a super valid argument in my case either.

 

So while I understand and can relate, I don't think these arguments are that important outside of the cost factor for some. As others have said, if the rules changed and I just got new glass, I'm not going out to kick down another 500 for lexan... just not that much benefit. And frankly, if everyone else wants to, great for them. You buy a lexan window, I'll buy a spare motor

 

Also as the builder of #12 I would more disconcerted to know that there was an prevailing mindset to NOT make rule changes when it could benefit the class. It's one thing to ban coilovers but to not allow a change that could save money in the long run? Those are the sorts of things that make me pack it in and just keep the car street/DE instead of going full monty.

 

Just my thoughts after reading all the comments here so far. And again, I would really love to find someplace that would quote me $175 for the glass, even without the install. Unfortunately shipping the glass here from SoCal probably blows any savings out of the water for me. Sorry for the stream-of-consciousness here, but I'm posting this in the middle of my daily work duties, so I am a bit sidetracked...

 

Carry On!!

[Cory M]

I have a bit of Lexan experience on track cars. My younger brother ran a pony car at the local 3/8 mile oval track (now closed). We just bought a flatsheet of 1/8" thick or so clear plastic- not the trademark Lexan but something similar but cheaper. We cut it out with a jigsaw and riveted it to brackets that were welded to the window frame. It had a center support. He ran the car for a season (running almost every week, sometimes 2 heat races per night) before selling the car. The lexan did scratch easier and you had to be careful not to set body parts on it, wipe it when it was dusty and dry, etc. We made a vinyl cover that buttoned in place to cover it when the car was being stored. It was only 1/8" so it was significantly lighter than glass. Maybe the the trademark Lexan product is better than the plastic we used.

[944spec92]

1. Doesn't it feel good when there is an OPEN FORUM to discuss possible rule changes and additions where current class racers, future racers, and those with experience can chip in (pardon the pun) and provide input.

 

2. Seems like we have a wide gamut of feelings (some quite passionate) on a possible new rule allowing lexan windshields. You can even feel the sway from one side of the spectrum to the other as new information (sometimes the accuracy was in question) is posted. One side being "no rule changes, ever" to the other end that may allow for evolution that takes cost and safety into consideration. Since all of us in some way, shape, or form have a vested interest in this great class, we hope that those who are in position to make changes, will review all the information and bring forward the most appropriate proposals or rule changes that allow the class to grow and prosper.

 

3. To add, after a bit of cost and availability research, seems like a strong consideration on lexan windshields should stay towards the commercially and readily available 1/4 inch "944 lexan windshield" (simple Google search) size would make the most sense.

 

4. Looking forward, if new NASA 944spec rules allow for 1/4" lexan windshield use, seems like the POC and PCA should easily follow suit since both organizations have adopted the NASA 944spec rules for POC R9S and PCA SP1 classes. Not sure why anyone would want to place hurdles or obstacles to have this flow through?

 

5. Until there is written windshield rule change in my hands, I look forward to buying a new glass windshield, with disposal, installation and any state, county, or local tax included, at $150 "out the door" in Orange County, California from the same glass provider as Jim, one hell of a driver and my good friend used. I will then take Mikael, another awesomely impressive pilot, up on his previous offer of installing clear film from the back of his tint business truck and tow vehicle so that I can protect against a future chipped or cracked glass windshield thus making any future decision on my possible lexan use null and void.

 

6. Thanks goes out to all those that took the time and effort to post on this topic. It was educational and at times entertaining. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[n wright]

Come on guys, does it really matter if you run Lexan or glass? Make it an option and each person can decide when it's time to get their first one, or replace the cracked one that ended their weekend, when the time comes.

 

There's no performance advantage in the minimal weight difference. I would think it may be similar to a sunroof car vs non sunroof. Who knows?

 

Sincerely Yours,

 

Lexan user for 5+ seasons (same one)

[legoland951]

Heck make it simple. Allow lexan but has to be the right thickness so its JUST AS HEAVY as the stock windshield. Then people who are willing to go with lexan can do what they will with absolutely no advantage over the glass.

[C.Plavan]

If you need to replace your lexan twice in a season......YOU MUST BE CLEANING IT WITH STEEL WOOL!!!! You better ask "other" race teams.

 

The $400 lexan windshields we bought have a protectant surface.

[944 cup]

4. Looking forward, if new NASA 944spec rules allow for 1/4" lexan windshield use, seems like the POC and PCA should easily follow suit since both organizations have adopted the NASA 944spec rules for POC R9S and PCA SP1 classes.

 

I understand that some PCA members have proposed that all PCA SP classes be allowed to use lexan windshields and hatchs and that serious consideration is being given to adapting this proposed change.

[Tim Comeau]

My last glass windshield was $175 installed at my "shop" house.

 

Mikael,

I don't think people are panicking at all. They're just voicing their opinions based on their experiences and research. This class, as least in SoCal, has always been one filled with varying opinions, which the drivers have no trouble expressing! That's ok. We bring it out, discuss it, come to a consensus, and move forward. We voted on a number of issues in the past like short shifters, throttle cams, etc.

As the SoCal Series Director, I have always had a clear vision for the class and it's rules, but I don't always get my way. I'm not a dictator, I'm more like the manager of a democracy, which in our case is sometimes akin to a shepard trying to herd a bunch of cats. So many ideas about what is acceptable and/or best for the rules.......

My goal is to build and steer this class in a direction consistent with the original philosophy. I knew the rules weren't perfect when I brought this class to SoCal in 2003, but I also knew we could get guys together and make sensible rules changes from within.

Our direction may vary a little to the left or right, but by and large, the drivers do get to have some say in the process.

[944 Swede]

Tim,

 

Let's have a chat on the phone and I'll explain my thoughts.

[Zvoiture]

7 pages.. holy shit. Didn't read ALL of it... skipped around here and there. How the hell do you actually replicate a rear hatch in Lexan?!?!?!?

 

Anyway, seriously. I vote Glass. Sorry, but I feel there is a principle invloved here that needs to be 'blindly stuck to'.

[uberklasse]

the discussion was really focused on the windshield not the hatch....

[Zvoiture]

Oh yeah... I was referring to the windshield as far as sticking to glass.

 

The hatch comment was just an aside.

[PeanutinCA]

Reason for sticking to glass and not allowing a choice Steve?

 

P.D.

[944-Spec#94]

Guys,

A quick review of the Az racers from this weekend says glass or lexan they don't really care. That said nobody was asking for lexan. Most are just looking to go to 20th St Auto down here get a glass one for $150 or so.

 

I am going to start a clean thread on this since this one is so long and ask for some firm feed back.

[Zvoiture]

>>>Reason for sticking to glass and not allowing a choice Steve?<<<

 

 

Slow you down!

[PeanutinCA]

>>>Reason for sticking to glass and not allowing a choice Steve?<<<

 

 

Slow you down!

 

Heh heh!

[Cory M]

From MAShaw website:

 

NEW HARDENED LEXAN RACE GLASS WINDSHIELDS

Why go with out Lexan Race Glass Windshields?

 

Our lexan race glass is the best polycarbonate lexan on the market.

lexan is extremely shatter proof;

race lexan has excellent optical clarity

speedglass lexan is highly scratch resistant ; Resists vigorous rubbing with steel wool;

race lexan is chemical resistant can be cleaned with windex

race lexan higher resistant to pitting than other lexan on the market

race lexan No special cleaners or polishes needed;

Can be cleaned with standard cleaners;

race lexan excellent water shedding capabilities

race lexan is government approved

race lexan is coated on both sides of window for durability

race lexan is formed to the shape of the car.

race lexan is virtually as hard as factory glass but is somewhat flexible

This is by far the best race lexan windows on the market and is patented

The best in optical clarity

50% lighter than glass

MANUFACTURED TO AEROSPACE QUALITY STANDARDS AS9100B; 2004

Advantages of our LEXAN® Windows

 

LEXAN® coated sheet is a two sided hard-coated polycarbonate material that offers excellent impact resistance, optical clarity and abrasion resistance. LEXAN coated sheet is ideal for many functional parts requiring exceptional toughness and surface hardness.

 

Weight savings - Using LEXAN® carries a substantial weight savings over the use of ordinary glass. For example, a 1/4" thick square foot of LEXAN® weighs 1.56 lbs. in comparison to 3.2 lbs. of glass. Another consideration is that further weight savings can be obtained because a lesser thickness of LEXAN® may be used. (An 1/8" window may be used replacing a 3/16" thick glass application).

 

Safety considerations support polycarbonate over glass. Glass is a brittle material. LEXAN® has proven to be a much better impact absorbent substance. LEXAN polycarbonate sheet offers the highest impact strength of any transparent glazing product--250 times the impact strength of glass and 30 times that of acrylic.

 

Endorsed by sanctioning bodies - Many sanctioning bodies have endorsed the use of polycarbonate products and more are changing over each season. These authorities have studied and evaluated the suitability of polycarbonates and support their use. Sanctioning bodies permitting the use of polycarbonate windows include NHRA, IHRA, NASCAR, SCCA, ARCA, CART, and many others. Please check with your sanctioning body for updates to the rules for your class or series.

 

Ease of installation - LEXAN® windows are molded to OEM specifications and are shipped oversize. This eases installation in bodies of different manufacturers.

 

Customization - LEXAN® windows provide you the ability to customize more readily, as they provide an ease of alteration and transformation.

[Cory M]

From the GT Racing Catalog :

 

125 944 FRONT WINDSHIELD 1/4'' . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .610.95

Direct replacement, heat formed, (Avg wt 9 lb). Orig glass 27 lb.

 

Significantly more expensive than the $400 figure that has been thrown around here and significantly lighter than the stock glass as well.

[Cory M]

From Spektr Products:

 

W944WFM1

 

WINDSHIELD - 924/944 - LEXAN

 

$575.00

 

http://www.spektrproducts.com/

 

 

By the way I hve heard of some people having problems getting the Spektr glass to fit properly in late model 911's.

 

 

So spending less than 10 minutes looking at a few catalogs online basically debunks the ideas that 1/4" Lexan weighs about the same as glass and the idea that a Lexan windshield only costs $400. So the real numbers are really about $600 plus shipping and install, and a weight advantage of 15-18 pounds (up high and in front).

 

I don't have anything against the use of Lexan but I feel that cars running Lexan should have to carry a weight penalty equal to the weight lost, in a similar location, I mentioned using fullsize batteries earlier as an equalizer.

 

Maybe there are some other suppliers out there that I'm not aware of, if so please post their prices and weights.

[Cory M]

I spoke to the owner of Spectr Products and he said there are cheaper options than the one I listed above. He can do 1/4" or 3/16", coated or uncoated (most racing regulations require 1/4"). He said he can do uncoated for not much more than what we are paying for stock glass, but the uncoated lexan is less resistant to scratches, he likened it to your helmet visor plastic.

 

IF the decision is made to allow Lexan windshield Spectr would be willing to work with us and sounded very open to a group buy. They could make whatever we want and give it a 944Spec part number. This would be an easy way to control the thickness, cost, etc. Assuming prices are reasonable, quality is good, and delivery is good the Spektr part number could be written into the rules as an altenative to glass.