Rules: costs and stability

[comatb]

I am a hopeful future 944 Spec racer and vocal advocate here in Ontario Canada. I have done five(Sebring, Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and Mosport) PCA races this year. I would like to voice my opinion that any proposed rule changes to 944 Spec be done NOW, before there are hundreds of 944 Spec racers all over the continent! Consider the 'X' number of racer's seeminly mistreated by these changes vs living with non ideal rules forever. Just look at a 944 PCA I-class car with the price of all the percieved must have items like, 18x8 and 18x9 wheels, 18" Hoosiers for every event, remote resorvoir 2/3/4/5 way adjustable shocks, etc. The higher the cost to have/field a competitive car......the fewer people that can afford it.

 

This class looks great, but it can be better by adopting a longer term view of the rules to restrain costs and encourage more entrants. Many I-class racers envy 944 Spec, but they would have to remove/spend too much, so they will run 944 Cup in addition to PCA. This offers more races with less travel. Most have agreed that if starting over again that 944 Spec is the way to go. Many on the East Coast are interested, but have a wait and see if it take off attitude. Rules stability and and long term cost effectivness are paramout.

[944-Spec#94]

I have been in the class since day 1. What I can say is there have been few if any major rules changes. There have been a few clarifications however.

 

Lets start with a few things

 

Car weight

2600lbs with driver - It has been this way from day 1 and has never changed.

 

Engines. Always have been stock. There have been a few updates to things like Stock US spec engines (thus elminating the euro loop hole) and reducing the max compression to 10.5:1 from 11:1. Otherwise there have been no engine change rules that made any difference. Sure we used to not allow throttle cams and accsumps now allow them, but hey they are not big changes.

 

Brakes - no changes from 2002 rules

Suspension - Major change was to spec the shocks this happend about in late 2002 before folks got fancy shocks - others only change was to set max track width and allow spacers. This change allowed better control of the intent to keep the cars stock

Transmission - No changes, but clearly spells out allowance for the "short" 5th gear

Body - No changes other than stock exterior mirrors

 

Tires - Tire were free in 2002, but As of Jan 1 2003 were Toyos' Size was always 225/50 R15

Wheels - no change

 

 

I still have a copy of the rules from Feb 2003 if anyone wants to check them out for reference.

 

Really I don't thing we will be seeing any major rules changes. When it comes to shocks. Well the Bilsteins are more expensive and maybe better. I don't believe enough to make a difference and probably not worth the hassle of changing now. Really I don't belive it will impact race results no or ever

 

When it comes to the headers... well they may impact race results, but it is probably simply too late to do much. They cost is not trivial, but at the same time is only about the cost of a set of tires. Not ideal mind you, but probably not worst thing in the world. Stock only would be nice, but in 5 years as used stock parts begin to dry up free headers may prove cheaper in the long run anyway.

 

Now the latest talk is lexan windshields. My feeling is that I would NOT want to have a change. However I do see some suppot FOR a change. I do not thing that it is a large advantage to anyone, but also since it is an added allowance it would not hurt anyone if implemented. What I mean by this is IF we allowed them folks could install at their leisure or simply stay with glass. It is far easier to "allow" something new when you change the rules than to "take away" something.

 

comatb

Do you have any suggestions for things that we should or should NOT do? I agee that rules stability is important, but at the same time I really hate to allow known loop holes to destroy the intent of the class. Having been involved for so long I can have an "insider" view that makes it hard to see flaws or other thing newer folks spot right away.

 

You can post here or PM if you'd like.

 

[944 cup]

Rules stability and and long term cost effectivness are paramout.

 

 

This brings up an interesting issue going forward for the PCA Spec classes. And I think it relates to both NASA's 944 Spec series and and the 944 Cup.

 

Going forward who's at the helm when making changes to PCA 944 spec classes? While the originating series pretty much wrote the initial rule sets, will future rules change for the PCA 944 Spec classes follow the very specific PCA format for making changes to club race rules with member input and a Board making the decision what should be considered and later adopted. I know for a fact that quite a few drivers have already submitted proposed changes for 2007 to PCA National for the PCA 944 Spec classes.

 

I can see the possiblity of PCA doing what it ends up wanting to do with these classes as they see fit. I expect, or hope rather, they would consult and coordinate with the original series to keep everything in line. But as time goes by, it wouldn't surprise me to see PCA decide what changes will take place with these new PCA classes, which could provide for a split at some point in the rule sets between PCA and the original series'.

[Tim Comeau]

Dave,

I bet PCA will stick to their method of gathering input, then having the Club Racing chairpeople decide what's best for the classes. I've been consulted on a few occasions regarding 944 spec and have provided answers that I would hope keep it pure, that is to say, keep it original or even tighter.

[944 cup]

Be great if works out that way Tim.

[944-Spec#94]

Well this is clearly a concern.

 

Speaking for 944 spec only. In NASA the region directors have the most control of the rules and as long as we keep to the intent I think we will be fine. As for POC... they also have rules "process", but given the smaller size of thier org and already established ties with NASA drivers (many cross over all the time). I think the POC rules will generally follow NASA (and vice versa).

 

PCA is a different ball game. Know for certain that the NASA Series directors & POC directors understand the intent of 944 spec, Dave I know you understand the intent of 944 cup. Given that it relavitly easy to maintain the rules. In PCA? Well in general both 944 cup and 944 spec rules are very different in their intent from most of the other PCA classes. Lets face it PCA stock classes are not based around cost limitations and equal racing. They are more based on Stock cars with worked over suspension at factory curb weight. PCA GT rules are basicly free for all's given displacment limitations. GTC classes are "factory stock" preservation classes. The 3 944 spec classes have some very different ideals driving them that are not present in the other PCA classes.

 

So.... given that I wonder how much the PCA Club Racing board understands these ideals. If they don't I would not be surprise in 2-3 years the SP classes would morph into something different from spec or cup as they stand. I would love to think the PCA Club racing board would consult with folks like Dave and Tim before making any changes to their respective SP classes, but PCA Club racing is an entity on to its own and often does things outside the influnce of other organiztions.

 

All of us interested in PCA racing in our respective SP classes should really take a look at ANY rules change proposals that impact these classes and send in comments. I THINK the PCA comment period opens on Sept 1st, but I could be wrong.

[944 cup]

Well this is clearly a concern.

 

All of us interested in PCA racing in our respective SP classes should really take a look at ANY rules change proposals that impact these classes and send in comments. I THINK the PCA comment period opens on Sept 1st, but I could be wrong.

 

Per PCA:

 

"2006 Proposed Rule Changes

 

The period for the submittal of proposed rule changes for 2007 is now closed. The Technical and Rules committee is in the process of formulating the list of proposed changes which will be published on the website and the Club Racing News for racer input on September 1. The final changes to be adopted for 2007 will be published in November. "

 

Will be interesting to see what comes up with the PCA 944 spec classes. I expect to see a quite a bit for our classes given the many visions out there about what these classes should be.

 

I do expect somewhere along the line that PCA will march to its own drummer. I think it will be easier for the 944 Cup to adapt to such changes as we have made cars in PCA SP1, SP2, and SP3 classes as legal for the 944 Cup. We may just need to compensate in our rules for changes to keep the playing field as even as possible.

 

DD

[944 cup]

Posted by a NASA official today:http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=65190#65190

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"No class will be required to move to PT. The Regions will still be able to offer any class their local participants want, such as Spec Neon or Spec 944.

 

However, the Regional classes such as these may not be invited to participate at the National Championships, where PT and the other NATIOWIDE classes will be. Note the use of the words "may" and "will". PT will be invited. A strong Regional class that is growing may be invited.

 

We can't run a format of a National Championship with the currnet structure of 79 classes being offered when there is so much similarity between classes: 944 Cup in the East vs 944 Spec in the West.

 

Too bad the rules are the same or that there isn't a way to turn two Regional classes into into one National class. Something to think about.....

 

Anyway, plenty of warning will be given in time for folks to decide what to do for 2007. I'm excited about the possibilities!

_________________

Bryan Cohn

National Competition Manager

NASA Pro Racing

-----------------------------------------------

[Spec-944#70]

I have said this on this BB and the Cup BB that I feel the classes are close enough that some sort of compromise could easily be done. Spec changes a few things and Cup meets us half way. Yes it may cost all of us a bit to redo a few things but "it" would make for a "National" class. And yes we've been down this road before and I don't really have a say anyway as it's up to our leaders to take this "hint" from National and run with it. I certainly think we could come up with some rules to make "all" of the cars competitive togther. Here is our chance for a "true" National class where cars accross the whole country will have 1 set of rules and be able to compete together. I know in the past Dave said he was willing to talk. After all it beats having 2 different classes that will never get to truely compete against each other. In fact I may even put my money where my mouth is. I'll change over and run the majority of NASA events next year if this happens and run less with POC!! Anyone else with me???

Go ahead and flame me!!

[944-Spec#94]

Eric,

The problem is that the 944 cup class is based on taking 944's in different prep levels and finding a way to balance them out. Cars have different suspensions, wheels, tires, engine displacements, hp levels and different weights that seem to do fair job of creating close racing.

 

 

944 spec is all about same chassis, very similar suspension, same wheels, same tires, same displacement, same weight.

 

Dave and 944 cup have created a prep leve in 944 cup for the 944 spec car and to my knowledge it can run as is Toyo's and all in the 944 cup class. Current indication seem to show 944 spec car can run with the 944 cup cars. However while the car may run just fine what one looses in this arrangement is knowing that guys you are racing against have the SAME equipment you do.

 

To ME and many of the other drivers I talk to one of the things we love about 944 spec is knowing your competitiors have the same stuff you have as you race around. No need to think "is a 2.7L motor worth the weight penalty?" or "should I choose SCCA prep or PCA prep with their respective weight limitations". In 944 spec we all run virtually identical cars.

 

Now what is the long term solution to all this? I don't know. Maybe the right answer a combination class. We all know Honda challenge is really 5 classes. GTS is 5-6 classes. Maybe the solultion is to look to PCA's SP1,2,3

 

In effect they took 944 spec and both 944 cup classes an created one group of classes.

 

Hey maybe the answer is to Offer the following.

 

Call it 944 Challenge or something (or even 944 cup)

 

Class 1 = 944 Cup 1 = 944 spec prep with strict rules control - Hey maybe spec tires, spec shocks, spec headers, no lsd, etc (or as current 944 spec rules)

Class 2 = 944 cup 2 = 944 equavalency class (Similar to 944 cup now)

Class 3 = 944 cup 3 = 944S, 944S2, 944 Turbo, 968 = similar to supercup now.

 

In this way we have 1 "class with 3 sub classes"

Hey it works for

Honda Challenge = HU, H1-H5

GTS = GTS1-GTS5, GTSu

American Iron = AI, AI/x , CMC (they infact act as subset of American Iron)

PT = PTG - PTA

[comatb]

I started this thread as people here in the Toronto area are considering building six 944 Spec cars that I know of. The uncertainty about rules and classes on this Forum is not encouraging us to forge ahead. Should we take a wait and see approach? PCA rules will be out at the begining of November. Maybe by then the direction of 944 Spec, 944 Cup and NASA will be more clearly defined. Don't get me wrong, I believe that the long term solutions that people are discussing to strengthen 944 racing is good. Fewer classes with the most competitors in equal cars is a worthy goal. I hope we can reach it.

[944 cup]

Should we take a wait and see approach?

 

 

I'd suggest that you go ahead and build your cars and go racing. Your're going to have a place to race your 944 whether with PCA, NASA and/or 944 Cup. Could there be some tweaking of the rules? Sure, but that's always the case with any racing class or series out there.

[944 cup]

In effect they took 944 spec and both 944 cup classes an created one group of classes.

 

Hey maybe the answer is to Offer the following.

 

Call it 944 Challenge or something (or even 944 cup)

 

Class 1 = 944 Cup 1 = 944 spec prep with strict rules control - Hey maybe spec tires, spec shocks, spec headers, no lsd, etc (or as current 944 spec rules)

Class 2 = 944 cup 2 = 944 equavalency class (Similar to 944 cup now)

Class 3 = 944 cup 3 = 944S, 944S2, 944 Turbo, 968 = similar to supercup now.

 

Joe: Appreciate the effort involved to rethink the 944 racing landscape. When I look at either NASA or PCA 944 classes currently, isn't this what we already have right now, i.e., 3 classes to choose from ?