2025 Rule Proposal: Tire Bonus

[Racerwong]

1: Allow for a “Toyo” Bonus. Toyo R/RR tires get 0.5 ratio bonus. 
 

2: An added tire option but balanced as Hoosiers are obviously faster. 
 

3: have run Summit , VIR and Watkins Glen and lap times are fairly consistent through life cycle range of Toyo R with lap time differences that would imply a 0.5 equivalence factor. Can revisit again later in year if need to increase or if Hoosier releases A8.

4: Eric Wong.  MidAtlantic GTS 
 

 

[mcdonaldsracing]

I’m all for this as we need more alternatives than Hoosiers or slicks.  These days Hoosiers cost almost as much as slicks, while their contingency program has pretty much gone to shit the last couple years!   What good is it even having a contingency program with Hoosier if you have to buy a set before every race weekend just to be eligible to win tires?   I’m really just sick of having to deal with Hoosier and would welcome a competitor to them in the series if the bonus is set right.  
 

John Huebner

Mid-A

GTS3

Edited October 9, 2024 by mcdonaldsracing

[rcrescencio]

Hoosier has made it impossible to claim contingency even when you follow all their rules.  We need alternatives.  Toyo seems to be the next best option, but there has to be a modifier factor to account for performance difference to A/R7s.  With a mod factor, then any racer can choose to continue running Hoosier or select another tire supplier with the appropriate factor applied.

[daytonars4]

I'm for this rule change. We need more options to be viable since only Hoosier currently is.

 

Lawrence Gibson

Midatlantic

GTS3

[Enhanced 3]

In favor of this.  We need realistic and competitive options that are affordable for the class.  The mod benefit (as proposed based on testing at various tracks) for the tires that toyo offers helps ensure that they are a competitive option to the proven performance of hoosier.  Additionally it provides a way for racers to patronize one of NASAs banner sponsors without giving up a competitive advantage on track.

Steven Laderman

Midatlantic, Gts3

Edited October 9, 2024 by Enhanced 3

[764Chris]

Agreed.

Chris Cavallero, Northeast, GTS3.

[Leo95se]

Agree to expand away from Hoosier.  Not sure attempting to provide an equivalency factor for Toyo or other is a sustainable approach.   
If Toyo produces a tire that’s actually decent do we then need a rule modifier to knock equivalency back down?

maybe having other manu contingencies would help, or motivate Hoosier to help us.

 

Leo Zick

NE GTS3

Edited October 15, 2024 by Leo95se

[daytonars4]

10 hours ago, Leo95se said:

Agree to expand away from Hoosier.  Not sure attempting to provide an equivalency factor for Toyo or other is a sustainable approach.   
If Toyo produces a tire that’s actually decent do we then need a rule modifier to knock equivalency back down?

maybe having other manu contingencies would help, or motivate Hoosier to help us.

 

Leo Zick

NE GTS3

It’s costly for manufacturers to become sponsors with NASA. So from a business standpoint there’s really no incentive to join when you can’t justify making a tire on par with an A7. Toyo is already in the game bc of the spec classes they sponsor. The new Toyo R after some testing in MA appears to at least be in the ballpark. The .5 bonus should make it a viable option.
 

Without a mod we are just maintaining the Hoosier monopoly over the class. A monopoly is what leads to constantly increasing prices and declining contingency. I’m not personally a fan of Toyo’s but we need to do something to change the path we are on. At the current pace we would be better off just allowing slicks in GTSS3 with no mod. 
 

Lawrence Gibson 

Mid-A

GTS3 

Edited October 16, 2024 by daytonars4

[Zach H.]

I'm torn on this.  On one hand I say no. it opens the flood gates to other modifiers. Are we going to give .25 for two way shocks vs three ways? aero vs none? we've beat that horse past dead. This is an administrative issue not an issue with on track parity. maybe as a collective we can pressure national to ask hoosier for better contingency?   On the other hand if the collective thinks this will build the class I'm all for it. worse case we can remove later? And again we're making a rule change based on what actual data? Then again we made no changes to the rules last year and the class hasn't seen much growth in 2024 so maybe just making it easier on current competitors is the way to go. lets just be clear on what we're doing here. 

 

Example GTS3 S54 BMW " Natural power" 330hp peak = 3300lbs on hoosiers and on Toyo would be 3135lbs. (330hp X 10:1 GTS Ratio non calculated) That's 165lb difference. 

If this rule is going to be put in place we must make the driver declare tires for the weekend. I don't want to see drivers qualifying on A7's then yank 165lbs out for the race and run toyo's. if they're as consistent as Eric says this is what I would do lol!

In short, lets not make this a national change just yet. Rules already allow for regional allowances so lets let someone actually exploit this tire with a proper set up and testing with the .5 modifier and see what the data says. just my 10cents. 

 

[daytonars4]

@Zach H. it’s really just starting to seem like the market has shifted to racing on street tires. The cost of racing has gone up so much that people look for ways to save money. The largest growing amateur classes are on street tires. I don’t think it’s a coincidence. BMWCCA resisted change for a long time and their race events were on life support. All of a sudden they added PTW with tire mods which has resulted in some real growth in 2024. Sometimes you have to either adjust to the times or be willing to get left behind if you refuse to change. I personally hate Toyo’s and not sure I’ll ever buy them.lol But I do recognize the need to adjust in order for the class to survive. Hoosiers monopoly is just forcing people out with how bad the contingency and pricing has become. 
 

A regional mod for 2025 in Mid-A and NE may be a great way to ease everyone into the idea and allow for more data to be collected. People here seem pretty committed to giving it a go after some major issues with Hoosier paying on contingency lately. Requiring tires only be purchased from a specific vendor etc. 

 

Lawrence Gibson 

Mid-A

GTS3

Edited October 19, 2024 by daytonars4

[BillsM3GTS3]

Maybe I'm not adding much here, but I'd support a +0.50 multiplier for a tire better than a 200TW but less expensive than the R7/A7.  Juicing a contingency for me won't help as I'm the only GTS runner in GL not on slicks in GTS 4/5 (911 Supercups).

Yeah, I need to get to NE and/or MA for a couple of events in 2025.

Bill Schachat

Great Lakes GTS3

[D.Schuler]

Agreed!  The cost of tires per weekend is getting crazy, and is likely to increase again in 2025.  To save the work of calculating the modifiers, I would recommend collaborating with TT/ST and adopting what they are already running for tire modifiers.  Apparently it works, as they have consistently had sufficient car counts to run at Champs the last few years when GTS has not.

Doug Schuler

Rocky Mountain

GTS3