Race seat with no roll cage question

[fast_frank_d]

All,,

 

I know this topic has been discussed many times, but my dense brain still cannot get it straight! The rule just isn't clear to me in the NASA CCR.

 

I am an HPDE/TT driver. If I install a fixed back racing seat that is NOT FIA approved and NO roll bar, do I need a seat back brace?

 

Thanks!

 

Frank D.

[z28racergirl]

No, you won't need a seat back brace. You'll need a plot at a cemetary and a life insurance policy so your wife and kids won't go broke when you're dead.

 

A fixed-back seat with no roll cage sounds like trouble to me. I'm not an offiical, so I can't comment "officially."

 

Not sure where you'd install the seat back brace anyway--they usually attach TO THE ROLL BAR and to the seat back.

 

Sorry to be brash, but why install the seat?

[Gfaules]

With all due respect, I mean not to upset anyone but in my humble opinion some topics can be considered sacrilegious and speaking of cemetery plots, wife's and kids and insurance is a step over the line amongst racers. I know you meant no harm but there are some of us here whom have lost both friends and loved ones while doing what they loved most. While a topic on such subject may be appropriate under certain conditions, the lack of such may seem even more appropriate.

 

In the same breath, I have to agree with the input of not installing something when there is no way to properly affix it. Not too long ago many of us saw a racer from another group bring a high-dollar car to Sears Point and because the driver's seat was not installed properly it almost resulted in a loss of life. All too often items that are installed into a car to "look cool" can in fact be considerably more dangerous that in this case the stock seat.

 

Best regards, Gary Faules

[white_2kgt]

No, you won't need a seat back brace. You'll need a plot at a cemetary and a life insurance policy so your wife and kids won't go broke when you're dead.

 

Couldn't have put it better my self.

[fast_frank_d]

Whuuuh whooooh OK kids, let's not all gang up on me. I'm only one man.

 

1.) This was a yes/no question with regards to interpretation of the CCR, not an essay question on your personal opinion.

 

2.) If I was required by the CCR to install a seatback brace, I could attach it to the tub where it rises up to go over the rear axle, and also triangulate to the floor.

 

3.) The reason a person might install a fixed back seat would be to reduce body movement in the corners.

 

Since we've decided that an essay answer is appropriate, it appears that I am safer sliding around in the stock seat that is not FIA approved and not affixed to a roll bar than I am snugly fit in a fixed back seat that is not FIA approved and not affixed to a roll bar. Did I understand correctly?

 

BTW, any direct answer for the original question would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

FD

[trackboss]

All racing seats should have seat back braces whether required or not. Reason being is that even an FIA approved seat will move and when it does the driver's body moves with it. That causes the shoulder belts to "tighten/loosen". That can cause injury in the unfortunate event of a mishap. If anyone wants some great information on safety talk to Curt Tucker of Teamtech. He is by far the most knowledgable person I have ever dealt with in regards to seat belt harnesses and their mounting as well as seat mounting. In my opinion his knowledge is priceless and his belts are superior to all others. Just my opinion, but I truly respect his knowledge and the help he gave me over the phone.

Gary, can you please explain how the seat was improperly mounted so we don't make the same mistakes?

-V

[Goldfish]

The OP didn't mention harnesses, and it is well documented that shoulder harnesses in a car without a cage is a safety issue. If he is using stock 3-pt belts with a fixed back race seat there may be some restriction of movement for egress, but generally this seems it would be safer than using a stock seat (due to driver movement) or racing harnesses without a cage. I wasn't sure of the relationship of the seat to this equation.

[Gfaules]

Trackboss,

 

The seat had been installed using (standard grade) 8mm allen head bolts supposedly to "look neat". Not very smart. While we all pride ourselves on a well built, neat looking race car I am sure we all feel that doing the install properly is far more in our best interest.

 

With respect to having a neat looking (even possibly expensive) while the seat it's self may be of higher standards than the stock seat, all that goes by the way-side if the engineering specs of the install aren't compatible.

 

I see this sort of thing done all the time when young street racers come into my shop that have installed "the latest goodies" (much of it being suspension parts) and in 8 out of 10 cases the car is borderline on dangerous. Reminds me of something Ed Iskederian told me back in the 70's... "You young kids and your hotrods. First thing you do is throw on some headers, then you toss in a big cam, then a big frigging four barrel, some hot looking ignition system and then the wrong spark plugs, always too damn hot. The truth is, if you put your car on the dyno it probably has less horsepower than it did before you started monkeying around with it. But by God it sounds good."

 

In retrospect I now know not only was he right but what he was trying to say is, learn what works best and KNOW exactly what it is doing besides thinking it must be good because everyone else has one.

[z28racergirl]

It's not so much a matter of my opinion as it is facts. To echo above post, you didn't say if you were going to run with 5 or 6 point belts. I assumed so; as I do now after your reasoning for attempting to eliminate body movement in your stock seat.

 

When you roll over, with no roll cage, if you have a fixed-back seat and you're running harnesses, your seat and your head will become the higest point as the roof collapses. Ouch. It's a similar arguement for folks wanting to run a roll bar/cage and not a fixed-back seat--for those folks the stock seat will fold backward and the driver's head can possibly hit the roll bar/cage.

 

All of these devices work in concert together. I understand a desire to fix yourself in your seat "better" in HPDE especially as your talent and speeds improve. However, it's really all or nothing with the roll cage/fixed back seat/harnesses/seat back brace/HANS device/Nomex suit... etc etc etc.

 

I hear so many drivers in HPDE refer to their driving as "racing" and that's an improper use of that word. HPDE is for driving and learning. Race groups are for racing. If you are in HPDE and feel you need things like a seat or a roll cage or harnesses, come join us in racing. Otherwise, run your car with it's factory safety systems in working order and run 9/10ths and spend your time and money learning a lot of technique.

 

Gary; I'm sorry to touch on a sour note, and it wasn't my intent to disrespect anyone we've lost. I was merely using over-exaggeration for emphasis in this situation, to perhaps keep someone safe by getting them to think outside of their box. My apologies.

 

Christine

[Gfaules]

Christine, no need to apologize, like I said I knew you meant no harm. You just happen to catch me on a down moment reminiscing about someone whom I miss terribly.

 

Your comments with respect to HPDE versus Racing are right on and it is important that all of us racers keep pointing that out to HPDE and rookies alike. As you know, it's easy to get caught up in the moment.

 

Regarding this whole seat without roll bar issue, the bottom line is a car should not have seatbelts fastened anywhere except near the seat the way they were designed to. If someone where to fasten a seat belt to the wrong spot the seat belt could in fact become the lethal weapon that could cause someone's demise.

[trackboss]

So Gary, was it simply the bolts were not the proper type that caused the failure or something else?

[Gfaules]

That's correct. It resulted in a bad situation to say the least. Driver in a pack of cars going into turn 2 at Infineon hit another car and it resulted in his small seat bolts shearing off. This left him dangling with the seat belts being the only thing holding him. His head impacted the roll cage and knocked him unconscious. The car began to roll backwards downhill thru traffic and got up momentum enough to jump a tire barrier. After that the car somehow backed up in a manner that allowed the car to make a tun and then begin rolling forward until it stopped in the tall grass. This was bad because he was still unconscious and now the tall grass caught on fire from his exhaust. By the time the safety crew could reach him the car was becoming engulfed in flames. After a trip to the hospital he was OK but you can see what an improper seat install can do and he possibly could have paid the ultimate price. It was also pointed out that seat bolts and washers are something that is often missed during inspections simply because they are hard to see or get to. Therefore in my opinion it is THE DRIVER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO KNOW if his seat is properly installed before driving anyone's car. If you don't know if the gun is loaded you don't pull the trigger. Proper seat install as well as other saftey items are no different than a loaded gun.

[Chris F]

Driver in a pack of cars going into turn 2 at Infineon hit another car

 

Rule of thumb: Don't hit other cars.

 

I've also heard this rule of thumb: If you're getting a fixed-back seat, get a rollbar and harness at the same time. The three should go together.

 

Some would argue that the fixed-back seat doesn't lay flat under pressure like an OEM seat would, so it's less safe in a rollover.

 

Also, I'm not sure any fixed-back seats would accomodate the stock belt, and it's difficult/improbable to make a 5-point safe without a rollbar with harness bar.

[nasaregistrar]

I am goint to introduce this point about stock seats. I tried to find any documentation that factory seats are *designed* to collapse in a roll-over. This is widely claimed, but yet undocumented. The only documentation I could find is that at one time GM had notions of designing seats to break in a REAR END collision. I believe it is the design of the 3 point belt that will allow the occupaant to lay over sideways in a roll over. If someone can provide verifiable evidence that seats are designed to break, I would love to see it.

[NASA Jim]

I saw a convertible Mustang roll over at Willow Springs and both seats broke back, which sure looked like the intended safety effect to me (both passenger and driver had minor cuts and bruises, but were otherwise ok). But I don't have any manufacturer documentation to that fact.

 

BTW, any direct answer for the original question would be appreciated.

 

There's a pretty clear rule of thumb on the HPDE homepage:

 

"As a general rule, an "unmodified" factory vehicle will pass tech without any problems, but cars that have been modified (seats, roll bars, belts, etc) must conform to the preparation rules listed in the rulebook.)"

 

So, if you put in a race seat, the race seat must be mounted and conform to Race Tech specifications. Why don't you contact your Regional Director of Chief Scrutineer and arrange to show them the car and seat in question before an event? They can then explain all of the applicable rules to you, and give specific information for your situation.