When does 2007 rule discussion start??

[slowoldpoop]

Yeah, I think the others are correct too.

 

You may feel like you're going door to door, but then you should step back and change your approach. If you get near someone on a particular lap and are slowed by them, even one second, then it's probably not going to be your best lap. Slow down, get past when it's easy/safe to do and then prep for your next hot lap.

 

.

 

My first NASA event was on the south course at Autobahn. I was down on power, so I was running back in the pack. We WERE three abreast, and the TTU cars were passing everybody like rocket ships.

 

It was the most exciting thing I ever did on a track!

 

I'm kinda sorry to find out that TT actually is tamer than that, and I understand the strategy aspect much better now: Find clean air, and go for a hot lap without traffic. It's not as much fun, but it is safer and faster. I can't wait to graduate from TT to a race group, hopefully next year sometime.

 

Rich

[JamesE]

Three suggestions:

 

2. National Championships. It is my understanding that all anyone has to do to enter the Nationals is enter five events, and complete at least one timed lap at each event. Hmmm. Some national championship. I recommend amending the rules to state that only the top five cars in each class from each region are eligible to enter the nationals. Further, if too many cars enter a particular class at the nationals, then preference shall be given to the top cars in each region. Ideally, the nationals should be a runoff among regional winners. This would encourage national entrants to finish well in their regions, not just enter and do a lap.

 

3. As I understand it, anyone can enter any car at the Nationals. In other words, I could rent a specially-built car just to win my class. For TT, I recommend amending the rules to state that points belong to the car and driver, so that the car entered at the nationals be the same car that won regional points.

 

Rich

 

Rich,

 

I would like to comment on your suggestions, but a disclaimer: I'm new to TT, so take my thoughts for what they are worth. If I'm wrong please correct me...

 

2. I disagree. It may be relevant to do this in the future but looking at the results from Nationals I count approximately 55 competitors. If there were 100 competitors, I could see the need to further restrict entry in the event. As is TT is a relatively young sport it has a need for a big National Championship to further promote the sport. Certainly all the regional winners want to attend Nationals, but not everyone will be able to make it. If entry was further restricted and next year's Nationals is less subscribed than this year, it would not be good for the future of the sport or the profitability of the event.

 

3. Also a disagree here. Consider a scenario that your car is wrecked or stolen a week before Nationals. Since the intent of TT classes is to permit street legal cars to compete, it is reasonable to assume that many people use their cars on a daily basis. It would not be fair to the victim in this scenario to deny them from competing.

[slowoldpoop]

I would like to comment on your suggestions, but a disclaimer: I'm new to TT, so take my thoughts for what they are worth. If I'm wrong please correct me...

 

2. I disagree. It may be relevant to do this in the future but looking at the results from Nationals I count approximately 55 competitors. If there were 100 competitors, I could see the need to further restrict entry in the event. As is TT is a relatively young sport it has a need for a big National Championship to further promote the sport. Certainly all the regional winners want to attend Nationals, but not everyone will be able to make it. If entry was further restricted and next year's Nationals is less subscribed than this year, it would not be good for the future of the sport or the profitability of the event.

 

3. Also a disagree here. Consider a scenario that your car is wrecked or stolen a week before Nationals. Since the intent of TT classes is to permit street legal cars to compete, it is reasonable to assume that many people use their cars on a daily basis. It would not be fair to the victim in this scenario to deny them from competing.

 

2. I still think it should take more than just 5 timed laps to qualify. It means just anybody can show up at the Nationals. I think the honor of competing for a national championship should be earned.

 

3. The race director can make exceptions in such a case. I understand that the scenario I posed (renting a hot car) has been done. Assiging points to the car as well as the driver eliminates that possibility.

 

Rich

[subachad]

You don't just go sign up for TT and are able to run, at least not in SOCAL. You have to go through the HPDE steps or complete a school or at least show some sort of proof that you can drive, like an equivilant SCCA liscense or logbook for example. Though I have seen some people get out there in some well prepped cars and their driving ability is not near the level of their car yet they continue to just sign up for whatever level they want and don't get questioned.

 

A green Mustang GT comes to mind, first time on the track and the car is gutted with a cage, later in the day he "progressed" to HPDE 3 where he spun off turn 9 to the inside and continued passing under the cool down lap.

[slowoldpoop]

You don't just go sign up for TT and are able to run, at least not in SOCAL. You have to go through the HPDE steps or complete a school or at least show some sort of proof that you can drive, like an equivilant SCCA liscense or logbook for example. Though I have seen some people get out there in some well prepped cars and their driving ability is not near the level of their car yet they continue to just sign up for whatever level they want and don't get questioned. .

 

You are missing the point. This discussion is not about who can run TT. It is about the minimal requirements for going to the nationals.

 

Rich

[hagakure]

In many cases we are running "door to door"....when you have 50+ cars at thunderhill and infineon, and are litterally passing constantly in every turn...it's door to door. I agree on the safety equipment and seriously question why anyone would get ina car in this group without it.

 

 

 

 

 

Three suggestions:

 

1. I was appalled to find that I am running door to door with cars having no roll bars in HPDE4/TT. This is insane! I recommend that the rules be changed to require a roll bar in the TT classes. Cost? A bolt in bar doesn't cost that much more than a good helmet.

 

Rich

 

 

appalled? Then you should have pulled off the track, in the interest of safety, right? Why stop there? Why not require full driving suit, gloves, fire proof undergarments, Hans device, window net, fire extinguisher system, 5 pt belts, ect.

 

If your car is set up with a full cage, dont worry about what everyone else has or doesnt have. They (we) all know the risks of driving at any track event with the safety gear they have -VS- whats available to them.

 

The bottom line is, you are not running door to door. You are running against the clock and nobody else. Its my understanding that the TT was brought in as a format for all the poor bastards (like myself) who cant afford to go real racing, a venue to compete with their street driven cars.

 

I have no issues with your #2 and #3!

 

p.s. I do have a full cage and full safety equipment in my car.

[Shawn M.]

In many cases we are running "door to door"....when you have 50+ cars at thunderhill and infineon, and are litterally passing constantly in every turn...it's door to door. I agree on the safety equipment and seriously question why anyone would get ina car in this group without it.

 

 

Yes, you are on track with other cars, you pass one another, but the fact of the matter is, its TT, you are NOT racing nor are you racing for position. That is a HUGE difference.

[kbrew8991]

You are missing the point. This discussion is not about who can run TT. It is about the minimal requirements for going to the nationals.

 

Rich

 

but in that same statement, you also said we should all have rollbars, etc.

 

I disagree with that by the way. If everyone has thier heads out of thier arses on track and drive in TT like you're supposed to (in the rules...) then things should be just as safe as an HPDE session. If you think we need that stuff for HPDE then that is another story....

 

if you aren't, get the $% off track during my sessions

[slowoldpoop]

.

if you aren't, get the $% off track during my sessions

 

Hmmm...I just love it when NASA officials resort to colorful language. It usually means I struck a nerve.

 

Let's examine TT:

 

TT is a stepping stone to the race groups. We are supposed to use TT to learn how to pass and be passed in traffic. I've been told that in another thread, where I asked how to graduate from TT to PT. "Get more experience," they said, meaning: get more experience passing in corners and outbraking people and all that stuff.

 

I have run two -- count 'em, two -- NASA TT events. In both, I experienced heavy traffic, running nose to tail with other cars lap after lap, and dicing with other cars who couldn't quite get by me, or cars that I couldn't quite get by. We dodged, fiented, set each other up, and planned the pass. At one event, I experienced running three wide, and passing and being passed, all on the same short straight!

 

You are telling me that these two events are not typical? That TT is just another HPDE? Boy, you better stay away from the Midwest Region with that attitude. The dudes are SERIOUS about TT up nawth here.

 

They tell us in the TT download meetings: Don't give up your line. Don't wave cars by unless you have a problem. Make the other car pass you off line. (That sure doesn't sound like HPDE to me, where you are encouraged to let the faster car by.) In TT, they tell us if he's faster, he'll by God get by somehow. See, it's training for RACING.

 

So, even in the eyes of NASA, TT is not an HPDE. Also, whenever laps are being timed officially, it's not an HPDE any more by definition.

 

Besides, HPDEs ain't exactly safe. I've seen plenty of HPDEs where cars made contact with each other, M3s bounced off guardrails (at amost every event for a while there), and people did a lot of stupid things. We don't see much of that in TT because NASA made sure people could drive well enough to be permitted into TT. I feel a lot safer in NASA TT than I do in any other club's HPDE because of the caliber of drivers surrounding me. But the possibility of an incident certainly exists because of open passing. Brakes fail, tires pop, and guys go off line to pass, out in the marbles.

 

Whenever there's open passing in traffic, incidents will occur. If somebody in a 4000-lb Stealth in TTU, running 50 mph faster than you, loses his brakes and T-bones your little car at 100 mph, you'll wish you had a $% rollbar.

 

By the bye, if I have this all wrong, and I am not supposed to be using TT to get experience for the race groups, I'll just jump up into PT immediately. I'll tell them that a NASA official in the SE region told me it was OK to do so in very colorful language.

[Shawn M.]

.

if you aren't, get the $% off track during my sessions

 

Hmmm...I just love it when NASA officials resort to colorful language. It usually means I struck a nerve.

 

 

Thats colorful? Get over it.

 

 

Let's examine TT:

 

TT is a stepping stone to the race groups. We are supposed to use TT to learn how to pass and be passed in traffic. I've been told that in another thread, where I asked how to graduate from TT to PT. "Get more experience," they said, meaning: get more experience passing in corners and outbraking people and all that stuff.

 

 

Lets!

You should have learned how and where to PASS from HPDE 1-2-3 groups. If you still dont know how to pass and your in group 4, go back until you do.

TT is more of a much faster run group with guys you learn to trust (or not) and know how to drive at your limits while other drivers are driving at their limits around you. It IS where you get that experience. Situation awareness is the key.

 

TT is a steping stone to the race groups. Its like the first free packets of smack. They get you hooked..... then its on and you gotta pay.

 

 

I have run two -- count 'em, two -- NASA TT events. In both, I experienced heavy traffic, running nose to tail with other cars lap after lap, and dicing with other cars who couldn't quite get by me, or cars that I couldn't quite get by. We dodged, fiented, set each other up, and planned the pass. At one event, I experienced running three wide, and passing and being passed, all on the same short straight!

 

 

a whole 2 huh? Whoa!

Heavy traffic could be considered normal for a race group. Ill remind you, since you have forced me to repeat myself a couple times now, that TT is NOT a race group and you only goal is to find open track space and lay down one fast lap. Think of it more like qualifying, whick you do in a race group. Your out there for one fast lap, not to be stuck in a train of cars. Also, its not a qualifying race either, thats different and im not gonna get into that.

 

 

 

 

They tell us in the TT download meetings: Don't give up your line. Don't wave cars by unless you have a problem. Make the other car pass you off line. (That sure doesn't sound like HPDE to me, where you are encouraged to let the faster car by.) In TT, they tell us if he's faster, he'll by God get by somehow. See, it's training for RACING.

 

 

Thats true, stay online and let the faster car pass you offline. ill paste again, for you. You should have learned how and where to PASS from HPDE 1-2-3 groups. If you still dont know how to pass and your in group 4, go back until you do. Even in racing groups, thats expected. Practice that! Even HPDE are told the same thing. Stay online, pass offline. At least, they SHOULD BE doing that in ALL the regions.

 

Pointing cars by is not only smart, but opening up the communication to your fellow drivers helps the run group run smoothly. Racing another car (especially one who is not in your class and is faster than you) and holding up the faster drivers, well, do that in a race group and see where it gets you. I dare ya and I promise you that you wont like having your car drug out of a tire wall. Racers wont tolerate it.

 

For TT, its a stupid thing to do. What is the harm in letting a faster car go?? Tell me please? Drive with courtesy in TT for a season or 3 and then take it to a race group. See how fast the other drivers, especially the ones not in your class, respect you. If you think respect isnt important on the track...... just go read the NASA CCR's about passing. Then read them again because I really feel that your not getting a grasp of things and im scared for you and your safety.

 

 

 

 

So, even in the eyes of NASA, TT is not an HPDE. Also, whenever laps are being timed officially, it's not an HPDE any more by definition.

 

 

Wrong. here, ill copy and paste for you.... just go read the NASA CCR's about passing. Then read them again because I really feel that your not getting a grasp of things and im scared for you and your safety.

 

 

 

Besides, HPDEs ain't exactly safe. I've seen plenty of HPDEs where cars made contact with each other, M3s bounced off guardrails (at amost every event for a while there), and people did a lot of stupid things. We don't see much of that in TT because NASA made sure people could drive well enough to be permitted into TT. I feel a lot safer in NASA TT than I do in any other club's HPDE because of the caliber of drivers surrounding me. But the possibility of an incident certainly exists because of open passing. Brakes fail, tires pop, and guys go off line to pass, out in the marbles.

 

 

you have done 2 TT events...? 2 right?

 

 

 

Whenever there's open passing in traffic, incidents will occur. If somebody in a 4000-lb Stealth in TTU, running 50 mph faster than you, loses his brakes and T-bones your little car at 100 mph, you'll wish you had a $% rollbar.

 

 

Easy with the colorful language!

Look, anytime you get on a track, scary stuff can actually happen to anyone at anytime. Its unpredictable and yes, DANGEROUS! Why do you think you sign the waiver at the gate?? Theres your clue.

FYI, a rollbar wont help in a t-bone accident. NASCAR door bars will. Id rather have those.

 

 

By the bye, if I have this all wrong

 

 

Im not very smart, ask anyone, but I think you just might.

 

GL with your season!

[slowoldpoop]

a whole 2 huh? Whoa!

 

Yes, only two events. I am just an amateur at TT. I won my class in my second event at Road America. It took one event to understand the TT strategy of getting the tires and brakes hot, looking for clean air, and going for a hot lap with no traffic around to set a fast time.

 

What got me started on all this was outbraking two cars going into 5 at Road America, braking from 140 down to about 65 for the turn in, then going side by side with the second car through 5 and up the hill to 6.

 

That was the first time I ever tried passing in a corner. The second car-- a BMW -- was very cool and professional, and let me have the corner when I stuck my fender past his door. It all worked out very well: Just the way it is supposed to in gentlemanly TT racing...err, I mean TT not-racing-just-seems-like-racing.

 

Why did I pass two cars instead of just tucking in safely? Because I had the momentum, was going much faster than they were, had better brakes, was on a hot lap, and passing would have let me continue the hot lap with minimal slow-down. At Road America, laps are nearly 3 minutes long, so you don't throw one away if you don't have to.

 

But I digress. Back to why I brought this up.

 

I've shattered three brake rotors, resulting in a complete loss of braking at inopportune moments. Those shattered rotors were at HPDEs, where passing as described above was not permitted, so no other cars were endangered when I went straight off. Had I shattered one at 5 this time, I might have collected the BMW. (That was in my previous car, a 4,000 lb 3000GT--I haven't shattered a rotor yet in the Eclipse)

 

I still maintain that if you allow open passing in traffic, and sh*t like that happens, other cars can be damaged. Therefore, I think a roll bar is needed at the minimum for cars running in HPDE4 and TT. If I had collected the BMW at 5, I might have T-boned him, and pushed him sideways into the grass, where he may have rolled over and over and over....

 

There is no further need to ridicule my experience and opinions. I get your point: TT is not really a "race," so shattered rotors and blown tires can't possibly cause problems if everybody plays nice. You win. I'm just an amateur and didn't realize that.

 

Rich

[bbyevo]

I experienced heavy traffic, running nose to tail with other cars lap after lap, and dicing with other cars who couldn't quite get by me, or cars that I couldn't quite get by. We dodged, fiented, set each other up, and planned the pass.

 

That's when you drive through the pits and get some room on the track. How do you expect to get a fast lap in while fighting for position on the track? If I come up on a slower car, I expect he will let me by, not see how hard he can make it for me to pass. Why on earth would I want to hold up a TTR car that is 3 or 4 seconds a lap faster than me? In the OH/IN region we grid by relative lap times, stay bunched up for the first 3/4 of the first lap then have at it. That way everyone gets a few clean laps before running into traffic.

 

That being said, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore - wasn't this about safety equipment? If you start mandating roll bars or cages for TT, you are going to lose a lot of participants. Why stop there - make hans mandatory, fire suppression, etc. I'm certainly not saying those things aren't good ideas, obviously they are. But many of us participate in TT with our street cars, and a lot of those things are impractical. The draw of TT is open passing without the expense and commitment of a race group. If my car has to be prepped to race group specs then why bother with TT?? It sounds like things are quite a bit different in your region than mine, which is surprising seeing as how we have so many crossover events between the two regions. We are all courteous to each other on the track over here - none of us wants to go home on a flatbed.

[slowoldpoop]

That being said, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore - wasn't this about safety equipment?

 

Yes. It got out of hand, what with everybody criticizing me for daring to raise such an issue.

 

But I understand now. You are all absolutely correct. In TT, accidents cannot possibly happen because we play nice.

 

By the bye:

 

1. I understand the TT strategy

2. I don't hold up faster cars. When I see a TTU car coming up in the mirrors, I get out of the way like a good little racer.

3. I haven't even come CLOSE to having an incident "out there." In fact, I tucked in nicely on one occasion because I thought it wasn't prudent to pass, and a Honda S2000 passed both of us on the outside! Of course, he has lots more experience than me and KNOWS that accidents can't happen in TT traffic. I hadn't learned that yet.

 

Rich

[slink]

rich, i don't remember if my eyes were open or closed during that pass just joking. after time trailing (racing) with you 2. i was watching how you drove that corner early in the day. i was hoping that you would not loose any anti-freeze

[bbyevo]

Blah, blah, blah.

 

[Greg G.]

Guys, we all need to cooperate out there. If any of you don't understand that, then please review the TT rules in the section regarding obtaining a TT license, then turn your license in to me as a voluntary forfeiture.

 

There is no reason to be fighting for position with any cars during a TT session, period!!! Once you have been held up by a car, the lap is done, so back off if necessary to set up a safe pass at the next opportunity. If a driver is purposely holding you back or blocking, please notify your TT Director immediately for evaluation for either counseling or punitive measures. Stay on-line when being passed. If you come up on a slower car, and can't make a pass that won't screw up both of your lap times, then be courteous, back off, let the car finish the hot lap by setting up a pass in an area that won't mess that car up. Be smart. Look for open track. Get pre-gridded by times; don't come to grid late; and give just enough room between you and the (usually faster) car in front of you that you will get at least 2-4 hot laps with open track. This method has worked out fine with very large numbers of cars, even on tight tracks. Your fastest laps will always end up being those where you didn't have to pass, or get passed.

 

Now, as far as safety is concerned. I and NASA encourage everyone to get as much safety equipment for themselves and their vehicles as they feel is necessary. If you don't feel safe, then don't go out. There is risk in this "game" of ours. Stuff happens. Things can break (and do). But, these things happen as much (or more often) in DE's than in TT, because TT drivers are more experienced, and tend to take better care of their vehicles for track use. If you want the ultimate protection, and risk management, then get a full race safety setup with an overdone cage (think NASCAR type made for cars going 220 mph that do hit each other and walls all the time), dual fire suppression systems, fuel cell, full fire resistant personal protection, etc. If we thought that was necessary for this level of competition, then we would mandate it. We don't. But, we aren't going to stop you from getting it if you think it is appropriate for you. Anyone that thinks that they can go on any racetrack, at anytime, whether HPDE, TT, Race, or private venue with only one car on track at a time, and not have some risk, is a fool. Then again, there is risk to driving the freeways in rush hour, or worse yet, on Saturday night around 2 am.

 

We have a good safety record with our programs. And, once again, anyone that thinks that TT is racing, hasn't raced in a "real" race. And, anyone that is driving in TT like it is a race needs to be reported immediately to help maintain the safety margin built into the program. Fast is one thing--overly aggressive is another. Now, at times, I'm sure there have been some spectators that have seen some close driving in TT or HPDE 4. Often, this is between friends that have been driving together for a long time, trust each other, often have more safety equipment, and clearly feel comfortable with each other in close proximity, both with huge grins on their faces. Don't mistake this for overly aggressive driving.

[RW]

Well said Greg!

[StealthTT]

They tell us in the TT download meetings: Don't give up your line. Don't wave cars by unless you have a problem. Make the other car pass you off line. (That sure doesn't sound like HPDE to me, where you are encouraged to let the faster car by.) In TT, they tell us if he's faster, he'll by God get by somehow. See, it's training for RACING.

 

Note to self: Bring voice/video recorder to download meetings.

 

Greg: If we leave you alone will you get the 2007 CCR published quicker?

[slowoldpoop]

This explains why the TT director at Autobahn chastised us severely in the download meeting for running three wide and passing like crazy. It was my first TT event, and I thought that was the way a TT event was supposed to run. It was quite a baptism! If all TT events were like Autobahn, then we would all need roll bars. I get the message now.

[GooRoo]

Edit: just saw the above messages... Oh well I'll leave this here anyway. I may use it later.

 

 

 

Rich, you're still missing the distinction between TT and the race groups. In my experience (which is admittedly not huge at all) TT should be almost exactly like race 'qualifying' not the race itself.

 

This means several things:

 

1) There is a strategy to gridding:

a) You could try to grid ahead of cars you are faster than, and stay ahead of them. Works fairly well on a big track like RA, since you will have several laps before you catch the cars who are much slower than you.

b) You could grid in the way back, and drive slow to warm the car up, then go for your banzai lap when you see the front guys coming around to pass.

c) Some other strategy

 

2) When you are getting passed:

a) Stay on line. That doesn't mean 'Race them and make them go around you' like it would within your race groups when you are racing for position. The reason that you should stay on line is to be predictable when you are getting passed, so that the pass can be completed as quickly and safely as possible.

b) If you are not on a hot lap, then be sure to plan the pass so that you don't slow down anyone who may be. That may mean speeding up to get around a corner so they can get by afterward, or slowing down so that they can make the pass before a corner.

c) Give people points if it makes sense to. Yes, in TT/HPDE4 it's not 'required' but it certainly is allowed. There are all sorts of hand signals that the race guys use during the race. Some nice, some not-so-nice.

 

3) When you are passing someone:

a) Pass them off line. If the other driver is doing what they should, this will be obvious.

b) Try to plan your passes as far in advance as possible. I may see someone going down into 5 at RA, and I will make a plan to pass them going down the hill after 7. Factors you have to take into account are speed/conditions, if you're on a hot lap etc.

c) Set up your passes properly. This is an artform, and when you see it, you will know what I mean. Generally the easiest place to pass someone is on corner exit. In fact, for TT it's really the only way to pass someone on a Hot lap and not lose alot of time. If you have to outbrake someone into a corner to pass them you give up your exit speed, and since you're supposed to be offline you will likely lose too much time for it to be your best lap. Hence, there's no real reason to late brake someone in TT. You rarely see that in the race group qualifying either. So often the best way is to give up the entry a bit, hang back and try to power out of the corner at absolute max speed so that you can pass on the beginning of the straight.

 

4) There are strategies for going for the best TT lap:

a) Stay away from people who are similar in speed as you when you want to get a 'hot lap.' They will only cause you problems and slow you down. This is exactly what happens in the race groups. They are often only out there for 3-4 laps because they know after that the car is only getting slower.

b) Alternate hot and cool laps so that you can cool the car/IC/brakes etc. Then everything is ready to go when you want a hot lap.

c) Realize that your best laps are often going to be at the end of the day because you learn every session, so save your best 'stuff' for then. Also people tend to leave in the afternoon, so you have more free track.

d) Remember to learn. Maybe one session you just follow someone around and see their line, maybe you try to stay with a fast guy for a few corners, maybe you watch the race group in specific corners to see lines, maybe you talk to the fast guys and try to get tips. There's lots of places to pick up information at the events.

e) Talk to everyone before/after a session and get a feeling for how they like to pass/get passed. With communication alot of misunderstanding can be avoided. Bring it up in meetings or talk to drivers specifically.

 

Now, to answer your main point, because of the above, there will be less contact. Because there is less contact, there is less required safety equipment. Simple as that.

 

I've participated in 11 TT events, and watched probably another 10. I have never seen contact between cars. There have been plenty of 'offs' and some damage, but no contact. Same goes for HPDE 1-3.

 

I've seen probably 5-10 races now, and I would say once there is 5-10 cars in a race group it's almost guaranteed there will be some contact. Especially in classes where cars are by rule setup to be very similar, like AI, Spec Miata and the like.

 

-Andrew D.

 

That being said, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore - wasn't this about safety equipment?

 

Yes. It got out of hand, what with everybody criticizing me for daring to raise such an issue.

 

But I understand now. You are all absolutely correct. In TT, accidents cannot possibly happen because we play nice.

 

By the bye:

 

1. I understand the TT strategy

2. I don't hold up faster cars. When I see a TTU car coming up in the mirrors, I get out of the way like a good little racer.

3. I haven't even come CLOSE to having an incident "out there." In fact, I tucked in nicely on one occasion because I thought it wasn't prudent to pass, and a Honda S2000 passed both of us on the outside! Of course, he has lots more experience than me and KNOWS that accidents can't happen in TT traffic. I hadn't learned that yet.

 

Rich

[Shawn M.]

pbthh-pbth..... test, test. is this thing on?

[firehawkclone]

Oh its on Shawn...... We have been talking but no one has been listing

 

They love to watch them selfs write! And to see how much they can disrupt! It seems to be thier fun in life!

[DaWorstPlaya]

I am grateful that you (Greg) are clearing up the issue with ECU reflashing. I hope you completely do away with the 3-4point system and just charge everyone equally for doing that mod. I am also hoping that the new rules also, clear up the confusion surrounding coilovers. Because with the current rules (06), I find there are a lot of inconsistencies or may be it just doesn't make logical sense to me.

 

The problem I see is, with the 12 and the 7 point system. Some coilovers that should be in the 7 point system fall in the 12 and vice versa. Case in point, the KW Variant 3 coilovers are a 2 way adjustable coilover that have pretty stiff spring rates and happen to fall into 7 point system. They make for a pretty good track coilover. Then you have the Bilstein PSS9 that is a monotube design, is single adjustable, has a softer spring rate and is a softer shock in general being charged 12 points. Because of how the current rules are designed/stated ... the KW Variant 3 is the much superior coilover for the track but has less points tagged to it.

 

How about differentiating between race coilovers and street/track coilover set up using spring rates and the # of adjustability the coilover comes with regardless of the design. Eg: 2 way adjustable shocks and higher would 12 point regardless of the design (mono or twin tube) because there are some damn amazing twin tubes shocks out there. Also, use spring rates to differentiate points: Anyone using 600lb/in and higher spring rates is 12 points, anyone under and using a single adjustable shock 7 .... Because anyone serious about racing will have the higher spring rates with the shock that has the highest # of adjustments. That way cheap monotube coilover don't get wrongly put into the 12 point bracket.

 

Or do away with that and just charge everyone the same? And charge those who only have shocks (none height adjustable) and springs charged less ... ofcourse they could always add ground control height adjustment ... but what I proposed up top seems best ...

 

Thoughts?

[bbyevo]

How will you check spring rates at the track? I agree that there needs to be some clarity to the coilover rules, but I don't think using spring rates or the label 'serious about racing' is the way to go. I think there should be another 'level' in there between big $$ Penske/Moton's and the 'coilover conversion' as it's called. There are a lot of coilovers that could fall into that category with single adjustability, ride height/corner weight potential, and camber plates/pillowball mounts.

[Greg G.]

 

How about differentiating between race coilovers and street/track coilover set up using spring rates and the # of adjustability the coilover comes with regardless of the design.

Thoughts?

I'd duck if I was you

 

Springs were only +2 last year--regardless of rate. You can change the spring rates on any coilovers/shocks. The spring rates have nothing to do with the performance of the shock/damper/strut itself. And, there are actually huge variations in their ability to perform. Guys don't spend $6000+ on Motons and Ohlins for nothing, or $4300 for DSM 50's instead of $1000 for Teins or $1600 for KW's.

 

Having adjustments on coilovers may make it easier to setup the car, but ultimately, those with the know-how can get the exact same setup by re-valving without any adjustment knobs. There was even a guy at the Championships that could re-valve your shocks for you within a few minutes in the paddock. And, those other resourceful folks can just have a few different sets of "non-adjustable" shocks that they have setup for each track, and just change them before the event. Once you have the car setup right for a track, there really shouldn't be much need to change the shock or spring settings. I'm sure there will be plenty of upset competitors with the new shock rules, just as there have been every year with the shock rules. At least this year, they will be much more easily defined.