Sterling Doc Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I gotto agree with the proponents of the stock motors, and I sold my car to abide by this rule. If I'd known I was going spec 944 racing when I bought the car, I would have paid more attention to the rules and mods done to my car. I came out OK. That said, I really do appreciate the support Tim - you've gone above and beyond to try and help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 So what? Nothing on this? And the final answer is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zvoiture Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 I took a spare block down and left a $9,000 deposit with the machinist. I'm filing all the extra work under 'Dependability and Longevity'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 I took a spare block down and left a $9,000 deposit with the machinist. I'm filing all the extra work under 'Dependability and Longevity'. Nice one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 yep with those overbore 88 pistons the light weight knifed edge crank and dry sump really help make the motor reliable at 9000 RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 So what? Nothing on this? And the final answer is? Answer? There is no rules question on this. No overbore allowed. That kind of engine work is just not in the spirit of the class and was never intend to be part of the rules. I for one still don't believe the rules allow it due to the word STOCK. factory overbore is NOT stock anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Thank you Joe, that answers half the question. And now, did any poor sap install over sized pistons? Timmay? P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITAIntegraLS Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Right here i have 1mm over . But too bad it aint a Porschah 944. See you guys this weekend. And let me by nicely. Edo #78 H4 Integra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Right here i have 1mm over . But too bad it aint a Porschah 944. See you guys this weekend. And let me by nicely. Edo #78 H4 Integra Hey, good guy to ask. Did you find it made any difference? Or hard to tell? Was it done with other mods also? P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITAIntegraLS Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 It makes alot of power i have one of the fastest h4 cars around. 1834cc DOHC 16 valve NON Vtec engine. 147HP 131TQ at the wheels at the 7n's only dyno. Edo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Hmm 147 hp/131ft-lbs and 2480lbs with driver. That is why you guys are faster than us with 135 hp/135ft-lbs and 2600lbs with driver. 12 more hp and 120lbs less weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITAIntegraLS Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well not everyone makes that much power. And after the race i always weigh in at 2500-2520. Also its a FWD car with tiny brakes. Edo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 But how do those numbers stack up to pre oversized pistons Edo? Or is that something too difficult to know? P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITAIntegraLS Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 from 81mm stock to 82mm oversized id say you can tune to have 5 extra ponies. On our honda Engines Edo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well not everyone makes that much power.And after the race i always weigh in at 2500-2520. Also its a FWD car with tiny brakes. Edo Well at 2500lbs and only 147 hp you don't need much brakes. 944 brakes almost overkill for our cars. 5 hp gain from 1mm overbore. Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoland951 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 If someone went from 100mm x 7.89mm stroke to 105mm x 7.89 mm stroke, the displacement will change from 2479CC to 2733CC. I can't imagine the gain will be limited to just 5 hp to go from a sub 2.5L to above 2.7L especially if someone gets the 88 high compression 105mm pistons. Its just my opinion that no matter how good you are as a driver, the guy driving the 2.7L engine will walk from the 2.5L driver in the straights. The 88 high compression 105mm pistons will be the holy grail of 944 spec and anyone who wants it will somehow find huge scratches from a screw left in the cylinder and pay someone $3k to $5k to take the engine apart and "rebuild" it with new pistons and rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 If someone went from 100mm x 7.89mm stroke to 105mm x 7.89 mm stroke, the displacement will change from 2479CC to 2733CC. I can't imagine the gain will be limited to just 5 hp to go from a sub 2.5L to above 2.7L especially if someone gets the 88 high compression 105mm pistons. Its just my opinion that no matter how good you are as a driver, the guy driving the 2.7L engine will walk from the 2.5L driver in the straights. The 88 high compression 105mm pistons will be the holy grail of 944 spec and anyone who wants it will somehow find huge scratches from a screw left in the cylinder and pay someone $3k to $5k to take the engine apart and "rebuild" it with new pistons and rings. For the record, were talking about 100.5mm pistons, not 105mm pistons, and 7.89mm is a bit of a wee stroke, you mean 78.9mm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoland951 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Sorry I was thinking about the 968/s2 overbore pistons and forgot to convert back to mm as I needed to convert to 7.89cm to calculate the volume in CC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Sorry, guys. I've been working my a$$ off and learning alot. No, Dilly, I don't have any over-sized pistons in any of my cars.......PARANOIA?..... I don't EVER want to win and wonder if it was because of my CAR! Anyway, I still see a half of a millimeter in bore as being inconsequential, especially when compared to keeping some guys with engines and keeping them in the class. Go grab a metric ruler and look at how small half a millimeter is........ One half of one percent of a 100mm piston. PLEASEEEEEEEEE......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 No, Dilly, I don't have any over-sized pistons in any of my cars.......PARANOIA?..... Really! Why do I ask? For the same reason many are thinking. You had a hissy fit over headers which you don't have. But, are ok with oversized pistons. It was a natural conclusion to 'wonder' if you were all for them because you have them? It's such a conflict in interests, your views on these two topics (headers, piston size). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 No, Dilly, I don't have any over-sized pistons in any of my cars.......PARANOIA?..... Really! Why do I ask? For the same reason many are thinking. You had a hissy fit over headers which you don't have. But, are ok with oversized pistons. It was a natural conclusion to 'wonder' if you were all for them because you have them? It's such a conflict in interests, your views on these two topics (headers, piston size). This thread is going off topic and personal. Take a moment to look at it from my point of view - I own a car with 1/2mm oversized pistons - I bought it that way. It's be easy to hide that, but I don't feel comfortable with that. If I just had the wrong headers, I'd take them off, sell them fora few buck and get stock ones - no big deal. But how do I fix oversized pistons? Swapping motors involves a bit more than swapping headers. I realize people will say I should have looked at the rules 1st, but consider that spec 944 is an entry - level racing class. Many of us weren't thinking about fender to fender racing when we bought the car - for me track days was where I was at when I bought the car. Ater getting and enjoying the car, I find out about spec 944 - sounds fun, and reasonably affordable - great - I've got a car that was built to SCCA stock autocross class rules, should be a good basis for a spec 944 car, right? No, because in a twisted bit of irony NASA spec 944 rules are *more restrictive* than SCCA stock class rules. Financially,I'm bettero ff selling my car than finishing the build and getting a new motor. So it should be clear why this can keep people from racing much more than a header issue, and this is what Tim's goal is, making spec 944 grow - what's so inconsistant about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I didn't have a hissy fit over headers......... My position has always been the same on aftermarket headers. They are a bad rule that needed to be changed. Twice in the past several years I've tried to build a consensus to ban aftermarket headers in SoCal. This isn't because I don't have them or can't afford them. It's because they are bad for the future of the class. Period. I could put them on my cars and just pass on the extra cost to the customer! I'm not looking out for me. I'm looking out for the class and the new guys who will be building cars. So let's cut the B.S story about, "Tim's against aftermarket headers because he can't afford them." Pure B.S. If I wanted, I could make money on these headers, I'd buy them through my corporation at wholesale and sell them at retail! Blah, blah, blah. These oversized pistons are a way keeping a guy in the class. It's no different from shaving a head instead of throwing it away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944mechanica Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Reality check: Oversize pistons, as commonly available for the 944, are of no performance consequence. Going oversize .25 or .50 or even 1.0 mm for that matter, will not net any measurable power gain solely on the overbore. OTH, replacing worn or damaged bore surfaces with clean, undamaged cylinders and brand new pistons…different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Yadda yadda yadda. What was that discussion a while back about mirrors? I'm sorry Sterling, it's nothing personal, it's actually not even about you. It sucks to find out something is not legal. But, the inconsistency in decision making is at issue here, for me anyway. Others can voice their own opinions if they like? There was a huge hoopla about mirrors. They were ultimately banned because of the aero issue, although I bet we hear it was for aesthetics. With the exception of grandfathering in cars with already replaced mirrors at that time. Then there has been the fierce debate about Headers. But ok, lets forget pistons for a minute, advantage or not. You can apply absolutely EVERY argument about not wanting aftermarket headers, to the issue of over sized pistons once a few people start fitting them. You can't measure the 'on track' gain. But it will be perceived, just like headers. It's expensive for the class, we want it cheap. It's hard to measure in lap times the gains from headers, but Tim, you want them out. Whereas LSD's, at an expense of $2,500-$3,500 your ok with. Doesn't make any sense. We have had a few people, install LSD's and find measurable gains, in the 1-2 second range. Yet, not a word. Your OK with those. But Headers, $650 and a few hp gain. "No, they are bad"! Yet in the past, we have been flogged with the fact that 5 hp doesn't matter, "no big deal". Make up your minds. Either 5 hp matters, therefore your consistant that headers matter. Or the hp doesn't matter and therefore niether do the headers. What about compression ratio's, do they matter? Apparently so, that was limited to 10.5. But now openning up the CC's doesn't? Ahhh, ok. You want the class cheap, but you want to allow an expensive item. How does that fit into your class model of cheap? Please, please please please ask the front runners the value of their cars and it wont be cheap! Nor would they want to sell their cars for $8K! Nor, would they want to allow bigger pistons. Hell, many of them didn't want to allow lexan for both rules stability and perceived advantage. Man, 'apparently' losing 15 #'s up high is an 'advantage'. But openning the CC's from 2478 to 2504 cc's is not! Man, it's hard to keep straight. The first car that turned up with headers, which was within the rules, cemented that as legal. Same with the first car that turned up with a 'real' (read descent) LSD, deemed that legal. Both require a financial investment. The first car allowed with over sized pistons, will deem that rule legal too. You sure you want to open up that cans of worms in the future? Because remember the resistence to turning back the header rule, and that's a HELL of a lot cheaper by comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 How similar do you want the cars? How easy is it to keep them similar? 1. The mirror issue was nipped in the bud because EVERY car comes with stock mirrors for free and only one person started putting on modified mirors. Yes, there was concern about the frontal area of the non-stock mirrors and that being an advantage. Yes, there was the desire to keep the cars looking the same externally. Easy fix. Stay with FREE stock mirrors and end any discussion about them. Thanks to all the current drivers who participated in that dialectic. 2. LSD's. Agreed, they are a performance advantage. But, many of the 944's came with them from the factory. 3. Headers. How many cars came from the factory with aftermarket headers? ZERO. It's a different issue. It's the combination of headers a chip, an intake, and dyno tuning that can make the difference in HP. Headers do not stand alone. They are part of the whole flow system of the air pump we call an engine. By far, most drivers still have stock headers. 4. Compression ratio. The rules originally said 11:1. Stock on the 88 engine, because of the pistons, is 10.2:1. This helped even out the difference in HP given by the unique 88 pistons (heads are the same). It also allowed drivers to true a warped head a couple times rather than throw it away. Later, we wanted our rules closer to the SCCA to promote crossover with new drivers. Comp ratio was changed to 10.5:1 to drop it down closer to the SCCA's 10.2:1, but still allow for owners of 88 engines to true their heads at least once. 5. Lexan windshields. I have no heartache with this because while their is a small weight savings ( we change the CG more by replacing a 40 lb stock battery with a 13lb, or less, motorcyle battery in the same location) the drivers were calling for this change mostly for safety, with some wanting the increased logevity of the lexan over the stock glass. Try to balance the weight savings (small advantage) with the safety aspect of lexan. Think about when we allowed cages to be welded to the A and B pillars. Everyone agreed this would cause the chassis to be stiffer, which was a possible small performance gain, given all the other movement in the suspension points was zero'd out, BUT there would be a marked increase in safety. 6. Displacement. Try to balance (up to) half a millimeter increase in bore, with the cost of a driver having to go find a new engine, then build it up for reliability. There is TOTAL consistency in my thinking. It's just that some people pull one small aspect of an issue out of the whole and act as if that were a chink in my armor. LOL! It's not about me or what Tim Comeau can afford! But bare in mind that I don't own this class. I only help steer it. I have always had one goal in mind since I accepted the challenge of Series Director in SoCal. That is to bring as many cheap, equal, reliable, good looking 944 spec cars to the grid as possible. But, I'll always encourage drivers in our class to communicate about our class with one another on this forum and in person. That includes questioning my thinking, tired of it as I might be............There is no flip-flopping on my part. I've seen, in person, what happened to the early AZ 944 spec group when discussion/arguing stopped. It shattered. I've also discussed at length with former drivers of the Mazda RX-7 spec series, the causes of that class's withering. Know how much a winning Miata engine costs right now? I want to learn from history and use that knowledge to push our class in a good direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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