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Oversized pistons


alperin

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For the record I am against oversize pistons and consider them illegal per the rules as they are not factory stock.

 

I believe that this particular modification is one that goes beyond the ideals that the class is trying to promote. Allowing oversize pistons will cause alot people to put the in simply because they can. Costs will then increase in a significant way. Performance or not it is an issue of perceieved performance gain.

 

Header were a mistake in hindsight. Back in 2002 the headers we were looking at were $250 a set and when testing on the dyno showed no gains. Based on that we said lets open then and let people do what they wanted. It was a simple way to allow folks to dump the heavy cast iron headers if they chose to. Used tube ones can be hit or miss to find, but aftermarket ones were a simple call away. Again at the time it was not considered a performacne gain so why restrict it. Now in 2006 this may not be the case anymore. Sadly there are too many (not just 1 or 2) cars running an aftermarket header of some type. Thus requiring stock only now is simply too hard. Cat is out of the bag and putting it back it is mess. Overbores are NOT out of the bag and there no reason to create another potential mess in 2-3 years.

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How similar do you want the cars? How easy is it to keep them similar?

1. The mirror issue was nipped in the bud because EVERY car comes with stock mirrors for free and only one person started putting on modified mirors. Yes, there was concern about the frontal area of the non-stock mirrors and that being an advantage. Yes, there was the desire to keep the cars looking the same externally.

Easy fix. Stay with FREE stock mirrors and end any discussion about them. Thanks to all the current drivers who participated in that dialectic.

 

2. LSD's. Agreed, they are a performance advantage. But, many of the 944's came with them from the factory.

3. Headers. How many cars came from the factory with aftermarket headers? ZERO. It's a different issue. It's the combination of headers a chip, an intake, and dyno tuning that can make the difference in HP. Headers do not stand alone. They are part of the whole flow system of the air pump we call an engine. By far, most drivers still have stock headers.

4. Compression ratio. The rules originally said 11:1. Stock on the 88 engine, because of the pistons, is 10.2:1. This helped even out the difference in HP given by the unique 88 pistons (heads are the same). It also allowed drivers to true a warped head a couple times rather than throw it away. Later, we wanted our rules closer to the SCCA to promote crossover with new drivers. Comp ratio was changed to 10.5:1 to drop it down closer to the SCCA's 10.2:1, but still allow for owners of 88 engines to true their heads at least once.

5. Lexan windshields. I have no heartache with this because while their is a small weight savings ( we change the CG more by replacing a 40 lb stock battery with a 13lb, or less, motorcyle battery in the same location) the drivers were calling for this change mostly for safety, with some wanting the increased logevity of the lexan over the stock glass.

Try to balance the weight savings (small advantage) with the safety aspect of lexan. Think about when we allowed cages to be welded to the A and B pillars. Everyone agreed this would cause the chassis to be stiffer, which was a possible small performance gain, given all the other movement in the suspension points was zero'd out, BUT there would be a marked increase in safety.

6. Displacement. Try to balance (up to) half a millimeter increase in bore, with the cost of a driver having to go find a new engine, then build it up for reliability.

There is TOTAL consistency in my thinking. It's just that some people pull one small aspect of an issue out of the whole and act as if that were a chink in my armor. LOL! It's not about me or what Tim Comeau can afford! But bare in mind that I don't own this class. I only help steer it. I have always had one goal in mind since I accepted the challenge of Series Director in SoCal. That is to bring as many cheap, equal, reliable, good looking 944 spec cars to the grid as possible.

But, I'll always encourage drivers in our class to communicate about our class with one another on this forum and in person. That includes questioning my thinking, tired of it as I might be............There is no flip-flopping on my part.

I've seen, in person, what happened to the early AZ 944 spec group when discussion/arguing stopped. It shattered.

I've also discussed at length with former drivers of the Mazda RX-7 spec series, the causes of that class's withering.

Know how much a winning Miata engine costs right now?

I want to learn from history and use that knowledge to push our class in a good direction.

 

Tim and any who cares to, read your previous post to this, and then read my re-write of it with small changes and see how it sounds?

 

1. The piston issue was nipped in the bud because EVERY car comes with stock pistons for free and only one person had oversized pistons. Yes, there was concern about the un-measurable gains of the non-stock pistons and that being an advantage. Yes, there was the desire to keep the cars performance the same. Easy fix. Stay with FREE stock pistons and end any discussion about them. Thanks to all the current drivers who participated in that dialectic.

 

2. LSD's. Agreed, they are a performance advantage. But, many of the 944's came with them from the factory. This one I didn't change, but I'd love a hand up on who's car came stock with LSD? Not including buying a built car with an LSD?

 

3. Pistons. How many cars came from the factory with oversized pistons? ZERO. It's a different issue. It's the combination of oversized pistons, headers a chip, an intake, and dyno tuning that can make the difference in HP. Oversized pistons do not stand alone. They are part of the whole flow system of the air pump we call an engine. By far, most drivers still have stock pistons.

 

6. Displacement. Try to balance (up to) half a millimeter increase in bore, with the cost of a driver having to go find a new engine, then build it up for reliability. OK, reverse this.

 

6. Displacement. Try to balance a person having to go find a new engine, then build it up for reliability (not considering resale value of built engine with oversized pistons), with the cost of many drivers perceiving that they "have to have" a half a millimeter increase in bore.

 

Tim, you wrote your own argument, AGAINST allowing this. Man, it's a freakin' no brainer. Sorry for Sterling, he has already rectified the problem and he didn't lose out. VERSUS, 2 years from now when 4-5 cars on the grid have spent the thousands of dollars to make this engine mod and NOT being able to turn back the clock. Geez Tim, do you see the forest for the trees? Your trying to help out 1 person and pi$$ off 20 others. Not to mention, it would NOT be ok'd in other sanctioning bodies and you would just alienate more people from running elsewhere. Either running with the sanctioning body that allows this mod and has cars running with the oversized pistons, because you 'just don't know if that's why you get beat'? Or, for those guys with the mod running in any other sanctioning body other than NASA. For the record, that same thinking (about changing rules in NASA) applies to trying to rule headers out (of NASA). And also for the record, personally I don't know why you don't install headers, don't care? You build your cars as you see fit? I don't have any (at the moment) either.

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Dylan,

I'm not sure you understand the point being made because you're using bad analogies to find trouble with my logic......?

 

First of all, this "mod" or "fix" seems to be legal in the rules right now, regardless of what I think. I'd like to hear from Joe Stubblefield why they wrote that "measurements" paragraph into the 944 spec rules. Was it just a carry over from other SCCA rules or did Joe read the factory manual and see it was an authorized repair to have slightly over-sized pistons?

Second, if a driver finds his block slightly scored for whatever reason, you'd have him throw it away? Instead of just boring out that one cylinder slightly and getting one over-sized piston?

 

While it's true, as far as I know, that no 944's came from the factory with slightly over-sized pistons, it is true that some came with UNDER-SIZED pistons, i.e., slightly less than 100mm. It all depends on how each cylinder mic'd out during assembly. Some of this depends directly on whether the engine was assembled with Mahle or Kolbenschmidt pistons. I've already stated that the Porsche factory manual says pistons of different tolerance groups can be installed in the same engine.

 

Now what do we do for the guys who got some undersized pistons installed from the factory?

 

I think you might be seeing this as something that can be done in all 4 cylinders during an initial build up of an engine, whereas I'm seeing it as a repair to one cylinder in order to keep someone from throwing away an engine. I agree that you have to envision the worst case scenario.

 

Either way, it can't be compared to headers or mirrors or LSD's.

 

There's no "repair" going on with aftermarket headers. If they crack, you can replace them with the same exact sized ones and you're back to where you were. If you score a cylinder, you can't get a same-sized stock piston and put it back in that cylinder. This is not a replacement, but rather a repair. See why the analogy doesn't work?

Mirrors? There's only one reason the aftermarket mirrors were put on the cars built by Autosport. Performance advantage. There's no repair there either. They were lighter and much more aerodymanic at 1/4th the size of a stock mirror. See why the analogy doesn't work there either?

 

Why do we allow shaving a warped head when we could have a rule that says you have to have an original thickness head?

Because it's a repair that saves money while keeping the engine within a desired HP range. I believe having very slightly over-sized pistons would achieve the same goal.

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Oh man. I guess I could say that you missed the point? It's not the "analogy" you chose to take from the points I made. The plain and simple point is this : "if you allow a mod like this, that is a) expensive, more so than buying a replacement block or even an entire replacement motor, b) will be PERCEIVED as an ADVANTAGE, like every other mod mentioned above, and c) cannot be policed to limit to just 1 cyclinder", then you are asking for angst. How do you NOT get this? Hands up who gets it? You know, I pulled my head, I have the 100mm pistons already, but all 4 cylinders are scored, so I'm going to bored them all out. OK? While I'm there I'm going to install headers, cone filter shut off to the engine heat, shave the crap out of the head, dyno tune a custom chip and when I come out and spank everyone, don't complain that it's because of my over sized pistons ok. Is that cool? Of course not, because down the road is where the problem is. Are you just trying to assert your leadership? Is this a pi$$ing contest? Because I'll back down if you just want to save face? I am arguing this point because I see it as damaging to the class in the future. Not today, which you can't seem to see past. Aside from the fact that Sterling has already sold the car. Your trying to ALLOW a rule, that I bet my testicles on will hurt the class in the future. You said it yourself. You tell us you "tried" to outlaw headers two years ago. Today, you say it's damaging the class because that didn't happen? Tell me "how" this is different? Because you can't buy a replacement cyclinder like you can buy replacement stock headers as you stated? How much is a single oversized piston, the cost to bore it out as stupid as that sounds to me in regards to engine balance? Versus, buying a used block? Please do the math for me. Because either way your stripping the engine down to that same level. So, how much for the parts? The piston and machine work versus a used block? We all argued back and forth over the "aero" advatnage of the mirror issue. It ultimately got ruled out. Not because of cost or common looks, because of "perceived advantage". So much so that in the night enduro with POC you turned your headlights off to gain aero advantage, even though the rules stated your lights had to be on. Because you "perceived" there to be an advantage down the long front straight. Or, you knew there was an advantage and therefore you openly cheated? Therefore perhaps you should be stripped of your win that year? Hmmm, is that a Picaso or just Dylan painting you into a corner? That's ok, you don't have to answer that. Let alone the fact that you only had one mirror after 1 broke off mysteriously. Anyway, I digress because at this point I'm enjoying myself. With every vote you give to allowing this change, the people around you are considering their take on the matter and if they are not with you, they are losing faith in you. I'm not the series director so, I voice my opinion as a driver. No harm no foul. If you can't see the pitfalls of such a decision to interprit the rules in the manner you want to allow, that will be NASA's problem. Oh, and anyone that drives with that sanctioning body. But hey, lets continue to debate the merits of this decision, please.

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First of all, this "mod" or "fix" seems to be legal in the rules right now, regardless of what I think. I'd like to hear from Joe Stubblefield why they wrote that "measurements" paragraph into the 944 spec rules. .

 

The measurements apply to places where there is no tolerance on the dimension. So track width for example there is no tolerance. So apply the 1/2 of the last digit thing. On bores there is a tolerance. In fact it is bounded by the 3 tolerance groups.

 

100.5 mm is clearly OVERBORE and is stated as such in the manuals for repair purposes.

 

This NOT allowed in the rules and was never intended to be allowed in the rules. PERIOD! Head shaving was specifically allowed and there is no doubt about it as spelled out clearly. Remember also that head shaving is cheap as least compared to boring the block and soucing new pistons.

 

Tim,

I am sorry to say you need to let this go. If you an issue contact me direct and we can talk about it.

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Yeah, you're digressing to the point that others will believe that your real mission here is to try to discredit me and unseat me from some make believe position of power. " ...assert my leadership..."

Is this an election year?

Let's clear your smoke screen........

I need to state it again........I don't own this class. I don't control this class. I'm just another driver who helps guide it. Is it too long ago to remember we VOTED on all the issues a couple years ago? You'll remember that my opinion on the headers didn't get chosen as the best path? So much for my big power over this class.

 

On to the enduro. Let's bore our readers with more trivia.

My passenger side mirror did come apart immediately before going to grid for that enduro. We had no time to fix it. I really didn't want to cut the wires to my power mirror. I had to cut the wires and remove my dangling mirror. That's all there is to it. No conspiracy, no cheating. There's nothing there except an untimely failure. Let it go.

I believe the rules said you had to have working headlights, brake lights, and tail lights. I chose not to mount big parachutes like on Tim Shilling's car, but instead used my H4 headlights in the stock pop-ups. The front straight and banking was lit up like daytime and I didn't need my headlights on at all through that part of the course. Why have them on? To equalize the cars? How's that equal with the extra parachutes that Schilling had on his car( 4 headlights lights total)? Truth is, there are no rules regarding headlights for our class. Just the Tribute supplemental rules for that year. So you can let this one go too.

The only good thing about you bringing this up again was that it reminded me that I made up a 45 second gap on you in the last hour or so of that enduro, after your team had illegaly combined your 2, 5 minute pit stops into one 10 minute pit stop. Even so, I outdrove you, ran your butt down, passed you for the lead, we duked it out and I finally stayed in front of you for the win.

So, thanks for the memories.....

By the way, Roselyn Poon sent me a copy of the Australian Porsche Club magazine with the article on our 944 spec class. There's a nice shot of the 2 of us after our win at the same race, the year previous. Nice job, mate!

Anyway, so much for that BS.......we do provide some reading entertaiment for class lurkers now don't we?

I'll try to get some math done on the cost of machining a block and saving it vs. buying a used engine or if you can find one, just the block. Let's also do the math on the increase in displacement from 100mm up to 100.5mm and the subsequent giant leap in HP that you'll gain.

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Yeah, you're digressing to the point that others will believe that your real mission here is to try to discredit me and unseat me from some make believe position of power. " ...assert my leadership..."

Is this an election year?

Let's clear your smoke screen........

I need to state it again........I don't own this class. I don't control this class. I'm just another driver who helps guide it. Is it too long ago to remember we VOTED on all the issues a couple years ago? You'll remember that my opinion on the headers didn't get chosen as the best path? So much for my big power over this class.

 

On to the enduro. Let's bore our readers with more trivia.

My passenger side mirror did come apart immediately before going to grid for that enduro. We had no time to fix it. I really didn't want to cut the wires to my power mirror. I had to cut the wires and remove my dangling mirror. That's all there is to it. No conspiracy, no cheating. There's nothing there except an untimely failure. Let it go.

I believe the rules said you had to have working headlights, brake lights, and tail lights. I chose not to mount big parachutes like on Tim Shilling's car, but instead used my H4 headlights in the stock pop-ups. The front straight and banking was lit up like daytime and I didn't need my headlights on at all through that part of the course. Why have them on? To equalize the cars? How's that equal with the extra parachutes that Schilling had on his car( 4 headlights lights total)? Truth is, there are no rules regarding headlights for our class. Just the Tribute supplemental rules for that year. So you can let this one go too.

The only good thing about you bringing this up again was that it reminded me that I made up a 45 second gap on you in the last hour or so of that enduro, after your team had illegaly combined your 2, 5 minute pit stops into one 10 minute pit stop. Even so, I outdrove you, ran your butt down, passed you for the lead, we duked it out and I finally stayed in front of you for the win.

So, thanks for the memories.....

By the way, Roselyn Poon sent me a copy of the Australian Porsche Club magazine with the article on our 944 spec class. There's a nice shot of the 2 of us after our win at the same race, the year previous. Nice job, mate!

Anyway, so much for that BS.......we do provide some reading entertaiment for class lurkers now don't we?

I'll try to get some math done on the cost of machining a block and saving it vs. buying a used engine or if you can find one, just the block. Let's also do the math on the increase in displacement from 100mm up to 100.5mm and the subsequent giant leap in HP that you'll gain.

 

I'm going to quote this post, because there's just so many memories in this one I want to keep them clear.

 

As for Leadership, I have the article from Roselyn. It quotes you as the current 944-Spec Series Director. I mean, that's what you are, what else are you? That is your position in NASA isn't it? Why else would you call yourself that? Ok, that one baffles me? Why would you convene a conference call with Ryan in regard to changing the 944 Spec rules in NASA otherwise? As for smoke screens. No smoke screen, I don't want your position. Never did, don't now. Your the right guy for the position, but you "clearly" don't always make the right decisions.

 

Headers, I don't remember "years ago" voting on it, but the power of the search will be fantastic for that. I do remember "months" ago you wanting to change the rule on headers and the drivers made a clear statement of "no". No change to the header rule.

 

"My passenger side mirror did come apart immediately before going to grid for that enduro. We had no time to fix it. I really didn't want to cut the wires to my power mirror. I had to cut the wires and remove my dangling mirror. That's all there is to it. No conspiracy, no cheating. There's nothing there except an untimely failure. Let it go."

 

Nothing to let go. Just pointing out an "aero" advantage that made it necessary to change the rules to read 2 mirrors in the extended position. It was unfortunate that your car became "out of spec" and technically not qualified to race, but we all let that one go. But it was funny to note and funnier to see your "my penis is bigger than yours" response.

 

"I believe the rules said you had to have working headlights, brake lights, and tail lights.... Why have them on? To equalize the cars? "

 

OK, so, I ran the stock headlights, and I left them on per the POC rules, because the rules did say you had to have "working lights". And I do recall you being black flagged for it so I guess the POC cared about the rules and safety of others? And your question, "to equalize the car". Umm, isn't that EXACTLY what your trying to promote in this class?

 

Ummm, so, as you state yourself;

"The front straight and banking was lit up like daytime and I didn't need my headlights on at all through that part of the course. Why have them on? To equalize the cars? How's that equal with the extra parachutes that Schilling had on his car( 4 headlights lights total)? "

 

Well, it wasn't equal with Tim's car, but it was equal with my car. So, why did you deserve an "advantage" just because you couldn't be equal to Tim Schilling's car? That makes no sense at all. It just shows you to be someone that would win at all costs. Especially when you have a client paying the bills to run the event. It kinda seemed like you let winnning the event for your "paying client" cloud your better judgement. Especially when you decided to pass me at 130+ mph through turns 1 and 2 by dropping 2 wheels off the banking and onto the flat infield. Which quite honestly was one of my scariest moments in "club racing" for me. I've not been as scared before or since in driving or anything for that matter, as with your display of well thought out passing at that moment. A $65 trophy isn't worth moves like that.

 

As for your 45 second gain to win, blah blah blah. Yeah, do I even bother with this one? Ahhh, why not? Could it be that I went from running 2.00 minute laps in the day to running 2:10 laps with the stutter as it got cold? Hell, my mother could have passed me at the point. That reminds me, I have a funny story about her later too. Ummm, could it be, the moment I jumped the curb to avoid punting you into the side of that crippled Ferrari and punching a hole in my radiator with 2 laps to go? I mean, if we are hanging our balls out like this, I mean school yard like, what times were you running that day? More than a couple seconds slower? Man this is so funny. It really is childish and I can't speak for you, but for myself I'm laughing at the level of this conversation. But anyway, there is more to cover.

 

"Just the Tribute supplemental rules for that year. So you can let this one go too. "

 

Yeah, screw the rules, the 944 Spec Director doesn't need to follow them when racing does he? It's just everyone else.

 

This is one of your prouder moments I've gotta say;

"after your team had illegaly combined your 2, 5 minute pit stops into one 10 minute pit stop. Even so, I outdrove you, ran your butt down, passed you for the lead, we duked it out and I finally stayed in front of you for the win."

 

I'll let Ross know his ruling on that matter didn't mean anything because you didn't get it. I mean anyway, it's not like Ross was running the event with Jeff? Oh hang on, he was.

 

And back to the "Australian Porsche Club magazine", how many people out here are running a $4,500 complete spec car? Because it's printed in the mag about 3 times that apparently "club guys and POC drivers all agree that to go racing for $4,500 with true limitations on what you can spend is a great turn on". I mean come on, seriously? Why do you charge over $10K for cars then? But anyway, I guess now that needs to be $6,500 due to the $1,200 or so for pistons and $800 for the re-bore. Yeah, that mum story. So, I'm on the phone asking a "respected" mechanic if you would do just one piston over-sized? He laughed, and then asked if I was serious, then laughed again. Then he said you wouldn't, which seemed obvious. So obvious, that my mother sitting across the room when off the call, said, "why would you only change one piston"? "That doesn't sound right"? "Your motor would be OFF BALANCE"! But hey, what would a 65 you woman know?

 

So, as for the math, it's a couple grand increase on a re-build. What does another used engine cost? Because it "APPARENTLY DOESN'T MATTER" anyway to have fresh motors. Of course that's a couple grand on an engine re-build cost. What do those run? Now add another $2K for it guys, what do you think? Because people only shave the head for re-build purposes right!

 

"There's a nice shot of the 2 of us after our win at the same race, the year previous. Nice job, mate! Anyway, so much for that BS"

 

Huh???? Because we ran an event together I should let you make decisions on the class? This is "BS" because I choose to have a different opinion to you? Ohh, well, Joe and I have a different opinnion to you?

 

"from 100mm up to 100.5mm and the subsequent giant leap in HP that you'll gain"

 

Well, according to an online calculator, it gives you a 25 cc increase over 4 cylinders. Or, for you that would be a 6 and 1/4 increase on the one. But it's not the point. And it seems to be what your missing? It would be the perception, like the mirrors. You want to "avoid" the Miata engine builders class, you said it yourself. Then why allow a mod like this?

 

Balls back in your court. Lets see how big yours is now?

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Guys,

This is getting a little personal.

 

Lets end this discussion here. I will try to contact Tim directly and discuss. I know Tim only wants what he sees is best for the class. Reasonable people are allowed to disagree on things. It is a normal course of action. Actually it would be rather scary if we all agreeded on every thing. Kind if like... "Here drink this Kool-aid. I promise you will like it!"

 

 

Tim,

I am sending you a PM.

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Yah, Joe's right. This thread has ceased to be productive. And your postings are full of errors, Dylan, the biggest of which was attributing the cost of a spec car being $4,500, to me. Check the name of the author.

 

Have your mom read the factory manual about pistons of different tolerance groups in the same engine.

 

My car won't do 130 mph, let alone 130(+) on any track

 

I didn't convene a conference call with Ryan to change the rules. Ryan contacted and invited me, Marks, Weitze, and Foley for dinner. There, we discussed several issues and Ryan made note of all the points.

 

Yes, I'm the Series Director. Your mistake, and that of several others, is in thinking that this position holds alot more power than it actually does.

 

I'm not sure how you arrived at "our driving together in that enduro entitles me to make decisions for the class?"

 

More of your exaggerations and inaccuracies and twsited interpretations of what I've communicated......

 

So, I'm done with that part of this thread. This is not what I joined this class for.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, Joe Paluch ( AZ Series Director and one of the most knowledgeable, level-headed guys in the class) and I talked for a while today on the phone about over-sized pistons and whether they are legal right now, or should/shouldn't be.

The intent of my coming to the rescue of a driver and saving a block, thus keeping a driver active in racing vs. how the measurement rule could possibly be misinterpreted and/or abused doesn't balance out evenly. Joe seemed to think that the measurement rule paragraph didn't even apply to pistons in the first over-sized tolerance group, but only to pistons in the first tolerance group. We agreed that if I could find a way to misinterpret the rules in that paragraph, that we should think about making the rules more clear regarding pistons themselves. We discussed the increase in cc's, both for one cylinder/piston pairing and for all 4 cylinders. The displacement increase for all 4 cylinders (worst case) is right about 20-25cc. Not much when you consider the total displacement of the engine, which is close to 2500 cc's. It's about a one percent increase and not one that's worth spending the extra money on. Joe thought that people still might do that and I can't argue against that, stupid as it seems. Even if we prove that the extra cc's are so insignificant that they are a waste of money, and we post that everywhere, people still might do it. Ok.

The cost of saving one cylinder by slightly boring it out, getting one piston and ring set could be about the same as buying a whole used engine and going through it. Joe made a good point about the possibility of us having to repair blocks in the future if we run out of readily available engines, but for now, you can get whole used engines, which are hopefully without their own internal damage. In either scenario, you'd need to completely disassemble/reassemble the engine. So you could spend your money on one piston and machining, or spend your money on a different whole used engine. Personally, I would rather have all my own "known good" engine parts and stick them back in the same block.

At the end of our conversation, I agreed that even if my interpretation of the rules legally allowed the saving of a block by boring it out and using over-sized pistons, and that the performance gain actually was insignificant, it just wasn't worth the possible problems that this interpretation of the rules might cause, if abused. So right now, I would say that if you have scoring to your cylinders/block that is so bad that you can't use pistons from the first tolerance group, unfortunately, you've got to junk that block. Seems a waste, but hey....

You could sell the block to someone in a different class who wants to run a much bigger displacement of around 3.2 liters without balance shafts......

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Anyway, Joe Paluch ( AZ Series Director and one of the most knowledgeable, level-headed guys in the class) and I talked for a while today on the phone about over-sized pistons and whether they are legal right now, or should/shouldn't be.

The intent of my coming to the rescue of a driver and saving a block, thus keeping a driver active in racing vs. how the measurement rule could possibly be misinterpreted and/or abused doesn't balance out evenly. Joe seemed to think that the measurement rule paragraph didn't even apply to pistons in the first over-sized tolerance group, but only to pistons in the first tolerance group. We agreed that if I could find a way to misinterpret the rules in that paragraph, that we should think about making the rules more clear regarding pistons themselves. We discussed the increase in cc's, both for one cylinder/piston pairing and for all 4 cylinders. The displacement increase for all 4 cylinders (worst case) is right about 20-25cc. Not much when you consider the total displacement of the engine, which is close to 2500 cc's. It's about a one percent increase and not one that's worth spending the extra money on. Joe thought that people still might do that and I can't argue against that, stupid as it seems. Even if we prove that the extra cc's are so insignificant that they are a waste of money, and we post that everywhere, people still might do it. Ok.

The cost of saving one cylinder by slightly boring it out, getting one piston and ring set could be about the same as buying a whole used engine and going through it. Joe made a good point about the possibility of us having to repair blocks in the future if we run out of readily available engines, but for now, you can get whole used engines, which are hopefully without their own internal damage. In either scenario, you'd need to completely disassemble/reassemble the engine. So you could spend your money on one piston and machining, or spend your money on a different whole used engine. Personally, I would rather have all my own "known good" engine parts and stick them back in the same block.

At the end of our conversation, I agreed that even if my interpretation of the rules legally allowed the saving of a block by boring it out and using over-sized pistons, and that the performance gain actually was insignificant, it just wasn't worth the possible problems that this interpretation of the rules might cause, if abused. So right now, I would say that if you have scoring to your cylinders/block that is so bad that you can't use pistons from the first tolerance group, unfortunately, you've got to junk that block. Seems a waste, but hey....

You could sell the block to someone in a different class who wants to run a much bigger displacement of around 3.2 liters without balance shafts......

 

Talk about you say tomato, I say tomato. How long do you want to continue this? I can keep going, no probs. I left it alone today when Joe asked it to be dropped, but I see you couldn't manage that. So, continue we shall.

 

You make a great politician. "My car wont do 130mph". Doesn't change the fact that I left a half car width to the inside of Cal Speedways turns 1 and 2 and you foolishy put two wheels onto the flat and still made the pass. Even though POC had expressed that this not occurr. You know how you made the pass so easily? Because when I noticed the crumpled right side of your car beside me at 120+ mph from a foot away, half on the bank half on the flat, I decided that was way too crazy of a pass for "club" racing and took my foot out of it. If you like, we can continue on with other "brilliant" driving at Cal Speedway, I can even bring the video out.

 

"Have your mom read the factory manual about pistons of different tolerance groups in the same engine." - Why? You need her to tell you how silly it sounds to put in a single different sized piston to the other 3?

 

So Ryan made the call, not you. Does that change the calls substance? No. Your "allegedly" pushing to rule out headers and "allegedly" Ryan was receptive to the change? Doesn't mean it will happen, doesn't mean you didn't try even after the drivers expressed their opinion.

 

"Yes, I'm the Series Director. " - So yesterday your not the Series Director. Today you are? Nobody ever said you had power. It was said that you as the director have an influence on how the series progresses and progressing with the "interpretation" of the rules for "saving 1 engine block" is ridiculous. This is not saving the whales or the Dodo! This was one of your funniest lines ever - "coming to the rescue of a driver and saving a block".

 

"Anyway, Joe Paluch ( AZ Series Director and one of the most knowledgeable, level-headed guys in the class)" - Well, I'm glad that you were able to listen to Joe after a phone call, too bad that wasn't possible by looking at what he had posted online? Or even just thinking forward to the future of the class if you allowed this line of thinking. How did you not see your "conclusion" ("it just wasn't worth the possible problems that this interpretation of the rules might cause") sooner? I practically beat you over the head with it? Which was unfortunate that that was even required. Glad Joe was able to talk some sense into you.

 

What's next?

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I want this to be the last post in this thread.

 

I talked with Tim yesterday at length about this and I know he has the best interest of class in mind. I understand his point, but we agreed that inspite of the potential of tossing a block we would stay with stock pistons of tolerance group 0, 1, or 2. No overboring. Gain or no gain it is can worms we don't want open up right now. Rules maybe updated to make this crystal clear, but it is not a change to the current intent. If in 5 years used blocks become "unobtaininum" or other parts for that matter then we may need to adjust things. Right now good used blocks are rather cheap and easy to obtain. Stock is good.

 

 

Dylan,

Please if you have a disagreement about some driving issues or other talk with Tim about it direct. This thread and the forum in general is not the place to go overthem.

 

If any of you have any questions about this I would be happy to answer them over PM, Email or phone.

 

So lets end this piston discussion with this...

NO OVERBORES or Oversize pistons (even factory Oversize 1) allowed.

 

Got it!

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WOW that was fun!! Reminds me of the stupid arguements over the "aero" mirrors!! I'm glad to see the overbore will not be allowed. Looked like a no brainer to me. Keep the rules stable and as they are except for rewording area's to make them perfectly clear. Another point the "Directors" may want to concider is to not make changes that effect the cars that actually show up to events. You'll lose the cars that show up for getting new cars at an event. And then you will lose those cars because no-one is showing up. Concentrate on getting the numbers up and keeping the rules as they are. It's a great class and like the old saying. - "If it isn't broke don"t fix it!!"

Besides if you make Ray's "blinker fluid" illegal how will he support his racing habit!! Please send money to his "Beat Mark Foley Trust Fund".

If you get 20 cars on the grid I may just have to show up to be part of the show!!

Good luck guys and relax and have a beer!!

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