New with lots of questions!

[thecrazydsm'r]

Hello, I'm new to the board, and new to road racing.

 

I took the time to get a license from SCCA; however, they don't have a class for the car I want to race. 90 Eagle Talon, I wonder why.

 

1. I was wondering if it is possible to get my license converted to NASA, or would I have to go through all the steps all over again? (I went to a racing school)

 

2. How much does it cost to do so if possible?

 

3. With my Talon, what class would I compete? It is basically stock.

 

4. Where can I get a copy of the rulebook? Is it PDF?

 

Other than that, I have no further questions. I look forward to getting to know more people here.

Thanks

[thecrazydsm'r]

Found the CCR so don't answer that one. LOL

[Ev]

Let us know where you live. That way we can point you to your local group where you can get the answers...

[JoeLee]

1. Yes, you will have to submmit a copy of your SCCA license, a NASA Medical, the fee and a copy of your State DL. Forms are all available at http://www.dri0venasa.com on the FORMS page.

 

2. Fee is on the license application form. You also will need to join NASA if you have not already done so.

 

3. Check out http://www.performancetouring.com for an Online class calculator. PT is where you will be.

 

4. You found the CCR - cool!

[thecrazydsm'r]

I'm in Atlanta GA. For the region question.

 

All the other information thank you so much. I think I will be able to race for sure in the spring. I'm already looking forward to it.

PT-C will be my class. Looks interesting.

[Renntag]

All the answers you seek are on the NASAproRACING.com website.

 

You would be in the southeast region with Jim Pantas. Your lucky to have Road Atlanta in your back yard!

 

Be sure to come to VIR and CMP with southeast and meet the Mid-Atlantic members.

 

Welcome to NASA.

[thecrazydsm'r]

yeah it is nice to have Road A in my back yard, it is actually about 40 minutes away. So not to bad I think.

 

I was talking with people on another msg board and they mentioned that I would have a ride along for one session since I'm going to convert my License from SCCA. If that is true what would I need to set up for the rider? Racingharness?

[Renntag]

Talk to your regional race director. Should be Jim Pantas if you are working with the south east.

 

If they want to ride along with you think of what you would want to sit in if you were riding along with a NEW racer. (hint: HPDE rules require same safey equipment for instructor as for driver.)

 

Best of luck and yeah, you suck being that close to one of my favorite tracks ! I'm 1.25 hours from Summit Point and that sometimes seems to far.

 

maybe I'll see you at VIR in february.

[thecrazydsm'r]

I'm hoping to meet everyone that helps me out and then some. So I think it is very likely to meet.

 

I agree about what I would want, but then there are the funds to put in another harness. However I do want to race, so I will have to make a point to get another one.

[Frank Corkran]

If someone is riding with you then you're not running in a race group, which means the the harness date requirement doesn't apply. You can save by buying a recently expired harness from another racer to use for the passenger seat.

[farmboy]

If you are just having a passenger to learn the course, you can talk to the many instructors and ask if you can ride along with them to pick up pointers about the course. This will save you the cost of a harness for the passenger. If you have a race seat on the drivers side then you will also need a race seat for the passenger in HPDE. In HPDE, what the driver has, the instructor needs as well.

 

Another choice to learn a course is to sign up for HPDE-3. You do not have an instructor and all passing is by point by. Or you can choose HPDE-4 with no instructor and no pass by is required but incouraged.

 

Since you are in NASA Southeast: contact Jim Pantas with all your conserns and he can give you some good advise!

[thecrazydsm'r]

luckily for my I already went around road A a hundred times, so learning the corse isn't my main concern it is just getting my SCCA converted to NASA. That is why I asked about the harness.

[JoeLee]

OK, for the last time - the CCCR does NOT require passenger seat/restraint be the SAME as the driver. It simply requires both sides to meet applicable CCR. So running full OEM on passenger side - and race spec on the driver side - is fine, as long as they both meet the requirements in CCR. T

[Renntag]

That is not what I had previosuly been told. Perhaps someone can quote the CCR specifically. I was of teh understanding, as an instructor, that the passenger side must be of equal safety standard to the driver side. It bothers me to say that I have been in a few cars that havnt met this requirement and those vehicles were not comforable to ride in at speed as the restraint and support was not adequate for the corner speeds acheived.

 

 

 

If you were a comp school student you wouldnt need a passenger seat at all.

 

Another option is to just have a lead/ follow in group 4. Talk to Jim Pantas and see what he wants you to do. Normally if you have an SCCA license NASA will honor it and you pay their license fee after you are a member in good standing. Unfortunately SCCA does not offer NASA the same respect.

[JoeLee]

Let's start with:

 

11.3.2 - 2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a NASA approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted.

 

NOTE the "OR" - no same- same requirement ... moving on to

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses: The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. *Aftermarket DOTcertified belt sets, installed to the manufacture’s specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility.

 

NOTE "Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger" - NOT REQUIRING IT TO BE THE SAME, JUST TO MEET THE SAME REQUIREMENTS. FULL OE is OK as is 1/2 RACE, 1/2 OE both meeting CCR specs.

 

AND LASTLY:

 

11.4.12 Seats: All seats must be securely fastened to the structure of the car such that they are strong enough to withstand a major impact. If replaced, the replacement seat should be installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions. If stock seats are to be used with a roll bar/cage, care should be taken to prevent the seat from submarining under the rollbar. Care should also be taken to prevent the occupant from hitting his/her head on the roll bar/cage. Passenger seats must meet the same requirements as the driver seat, if used by passengers.

 

AGAIN - requiring both sides MEET CCR, not that both sides BE THE SAME.

 

Now there ARE groups that DO require 100% the same passenger and driver seat/harness systems. NASA DOES NOT. Period

[thecrazydsm'r]

Well I think that clears all that up forever. LOL

Jim Pantas..... ok e-mail sent thanks again

[The Twanksta]

Thanks alot! That answers alot of people question! you should go ahead and make that its own thread!

[nasaregistrar]

Let's start with:

 

11.3.2 - 2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a NASA approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted.

 

NOTE the "OR" - no same- same requirement ... moving on to

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses: The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. *Aftermarket DOTcertified belt sets, installed to the manufacture’s specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility.

 

NOTE "Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger" - NOT REQUIRING IT TO BE THE SAME, JUST TO MEET THE SAME REQUIREMENTS. FULL OE is OK as is 1/2 RACE, 1/2 OE both meeting CCR specs.

 

AND LASTLY:

 

11.4.12 Seats: All seats must be securely fastened to the structure of the car such that they are strong enough to withstand a major impact. If replaced, the replacement seat should be installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions. If stock seats are to be used with a roll bar/cage, care should be taken to prevent the seat from submarining under the rollbar. Care should also be taken to prevent the occupant from hitting his/her head on the roll bar/cage. Passenger seats must meet the same requirements as the driver seat, if used by passengers.

 

AGAIN - requiring both sides MEET CCR, not that both sides BE THE SAME.

 

Now there ARE groups that DO require 100% the same passenger and driver seat/harness systems. NASA DOES NOT. Period

You go , Joe Lee....

Thanks for posting that. That question comes up a lot

[farmboy]

If you have a race seat on the drivers side then you will also need a race seat for the passenger in HPDE. In HPDE, what the driver has, the instructor needs as well.

 

JoeLee where were you when I was in HPDE 1 and 2? Yes this question has been asked by many folks and I as well. The answer quoted was the answer I was given. I was even told the instructor can refuse to ride in the car if the seat and safety harness does not meet the drivers equipment. So I purchased a race seat and 5 point harness and now it is sitting in the corner. Oh well, live and learn.

 

This is probably the one question most asked by HPDE students.

[Bruce L.]

11.3.2 could easily be read as (Driver AND any passenger) must (do this) OR (do that) i.e. the two must be the same but there are two options for the way they are.

 

then, in 11.4.8 it says ... "Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger."

 

could be read that the passenger belts meet the same requirements as the currently installed driver's belts, not just NASA's minimum requirements for driver belts i.e. if you have a racing harness that meets some SFI or DOT requirement, then the passenger belts must also meet those same requirements (doesn't need to be the same belt, but they must both meet the same requirements).

 

I may be interpreting these more strictly than intended, but unless Joe is speaking for NASA National, it is still ambiguous to me. And, since I'm an instructor, my vote (demand) is that I want the same safety in the seat that I ride in - why would anybody that puts their lives on the line want anything less???? A student in a harness is going to be driving that much faster and closer to the edge, and if there is an accident, why would I want less restraint than he has? I can see having a racing shell for the driver and a stock seat for the passenger, but I want the same restraints in both spots.

 

thanks,

Bruce

 

 

 

 

 

Let's start with:

 

11.3.2 - 2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a NASA approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted.

 

NOTE the "OR" - no same- same requirement ... moving on to

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses: The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. *Aftermarket DOTcertified belt sets, installed to the manufacture’s specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility.

 

NOTE "Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger" - NOT REQUIRING IT TO BE THE SAME, JUST TO MEET THE SAME REQUIREMENTS. FULL OE is OK as is 1/2 RACE, 1/2 OE both meeting CCR specs.

 

AND LASTLY:

 

11.4.12 Seats: All seats must be securely fastened to the structure of the car such that they are strong enough to withstand a major impact. If replaced, the replacement seat should be installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions. If stock seats are to be used with a roll bar/cage, care should be taken to prevent the seat from submarining under the rollbar. Care should also be taken to prevent the occupant from hitting his/her head on the roll bar/cage. Passenger seats must meet the same requirements as the driver seat, if used by passengers.

 

AGAIN - requiring both sides MEET CCR, not that both sides BE THE SAME.

 

Now there ARE groups that DO require 100% the same passenger and driver seat/harness systems. NASA DOES NOT. Period

[Greg G.]

It seems that this issue comes up about once every month or two on these forums. I'm sure if one used the search feature, we would find tons of posts over the years regarding this.

 

I also instruct, and (as we have discussed over the years many times) would rather take the safe approach, as opposed to the mistakenly perceived safer approach to passenger seats and harnesses. I'm not going to rehash all of the multitudes of old arguments about this; but, if a car does not have a cage (or at least a good roll bar), it is clearly much safer to be in a DOT approved OEM seat and have OEM seatbelts. (or at the minimum have DOT approved 4-pt replacements). In the event of a rollover, a race seat and 5-7 pt harness can turn your head and neck into the "roll bar". The OEM car structure, passenger seat, and shoulder/lap restraint are all engineered to work in concert together to help protect the occupants in the event of a collision or roll. Once one of those three items is changed without changing the other two, although it may "seem" safer, it isn't. Now, if a car has a cage or roll bar, and the driver is not providing 5-7 pt. restraints, it is also dangerous (now, the passenger's head can become a pinball with the rollcage as the bumpers). As long as the OEM seat cannot submarine under the main hoop crossbar, and the seat provides correct positioning of the shoulder harness and sub straps, I think it is ok, but not optimal. So, even if the driver has a race seat and 5 pt. harness, if there is no rollover protection (other than the driver's head ), I want OEM on the passenger side.

 

I have submitted a request for the wording on this issue to be reviewed during the '07 CCR revision process.

[Bruce L.]

thanks Greg, I don't agree with your last sentence based on Joe Marko's recommendation but it will be good to get some clarity here.

bruce

[nasajerry]

Bruce,

 

Even though it's pretty clear to me that the CCR allows passenger equipment to meet the minimum listed in the CCR (not having to match the driver), I added a clarification to the 2007 CCR.

 

Since you have stated that you do not feel safe riding with anyone unless the provided safety equipment matches what the driver has, you no longer even have that option. We cannot allow you to do something that you have stated to be unsafe. So, it would be good to consult with the Chief Instructor or Regional Director to make sure they are assigning you a student with safety equipment for the passenger that matches with the driver’s equipment.

 

Jerry Kunzman

[Bruce L.]

I just noticed Jerry's response after coming back here after seeing the 2007 CCR is posted with the clarifications. My Reg Dir and Chief Instructor have assured me that they will back any instructor that does not want to ride in a car with unequal restraints, so that is fine. I still feel that it is a cop-out on NASA's part as it potentially makes the instructors look like the bad guys or "weenies".

 

BTW Jerry, CCR 11.3(2) and 11.4.8 are unclear in that they state that only stock or DOT-certified belts are allowed, but then also state that belts meeting 15.5 are allowed (i.e. any racing harness). Or are those considered to "exceed" the minimum?

thanks,

bruce

 

 

Bruce,

 

Even though it's pretty clear to me that the CCR allows passenger equipment to meet the minimum listed in the CCR (not having to match the driver), I added a clarification to the 2007 CCR.

 

Since you have stated that you do not feel safe riding with anyone unless the provided safety equipment matches what the driver has, you no longer even have that option. We cannot allow you to do something that you have stated to be unsafe. So, it would be good to consult with the Chief Instructor or Regional Director to make sure they are assigning you a student with safety equipment for the passenger that matches with the driver’s equipment.

 

Jerry Kunzman

[nismofly]

So how would the rule apply to running a bucket with a stock seatbelt?

 

My driver seat is somewhat floppy and well worn, I have doubts it would pass tech...I certainly wont get harnesses without rollover protection though.

 

So what should my setup be, bucket driver seat, oem passenger seat, oem seatbelts, etc?

 

Id only have it like that for the 3 or so hpde's Im planning to run this summer, it will be stripped and caged by this time next year.