National AI Advisory Board

[nasaracer32]

Will,

 

I, like you, have an opinion on this matter that I feel strongly about. Obviously, our opinions differ.

 

 

No problem, Sean, a lot of us just want to know what is going and would like some straight-up, consistent, and clear answers on some things.

[mwilson7]

Well I have to admit that I am now totally confused. Knowing many people involved in many series I do have to state that this is the first series I have ever heard of that takes a passive approach to obtaining sponsors. Why do we need sponsors? I believe you guys know how much it costs to race so I'm not even going to answer that question. If someone is willing to give a little back to the racers if we use their products and put decals on their car then I'm all for it. Should someone actively be seeking out these people....DEFINITELY!!!!!!!

 

You talk of having to pay someone to obtain sponsorship or contigencies but who has asked for money so they could go off and do this? I know MANY racers who would do this stuff for free. I was also told by John at SEMA that ALL AI contigencies would have to go through National. Now your saying National isn't responsible for contigencies? Is that National NASA or National AI? Can you tell me why the AI contigency's were only posted on the AI-West website and not on the national AI website that you created?

 

You mention that AI is not the center of the universe and that other classes have needs as well. It seems that other classes needs are being met. As previously mentioned HC ran a full page ad in GRM and seem to have quite a few sponsors. Who paid for that ad? Did all of those sponsors come knocking down the door? Who got those sponsors? Perhaps now you see why we DO need sponsors and do need to actively solicite them.

 

Ryan, if I have said this once I have said it a thousand times. We ALL appreciate how busy you guys are running national NASA but I have to be completely honest. That is NO EXCUSE for letting AI suffer in any way. If running NASA is enough of a job for you then pass the AI leadership to someone(or a group of people) who want to run with it. I know your going to say that Dan was supposed to be that person but I it seems that now that he is out of the picture that door has closed. If your grand AI plan revolved around a person and not a process then it was ill-conceived from the beginning. What is the plan for National AI now?

 

Sean - I don't know who you are referring to but I think you are missing the whole point of this conversation. East of the rockies we definitely have the fun part down. We have a BBQ EVERY Saturday night of the race weekend (And Friday's too!). We also work on each others cars until all hours of the morning just to make sure that someone makes the grid.

 

This thread started out because I asked a simple question to try to get more info on a National Advisory that we were told about by an empowered RD. National AI stated they knew nothing about this and to be honest I wasn't surprised. I'm not sure why but it seems that information has a difficult time getting over the Rockies because we are either the last to know about something or we are mis-informed. Unfortunately it seems that when we bring up this subject it is either taken as a personal attack or else National is to busy to discuss it...........

 

Enough rambling for now. I need to go outside and remove the snow from my race car as I have a 9 hour drive to our first AI race!!

[JWL]

Guys-

 

I only have a short minute to respond as I am on Daddy Duty as soon as a diaper gets changed, but let's all calm down and take a deep breath before we get too much more emotion expended. Will and the other guys are completely right that I did not get back to him on some stuff and for this I apologize. We (meaning Ryan and I) have been trying to do the work of a ten man crew and we sometimes fail. We're both perfectionists, so when we fail we sometimes get pissed and things come out wrong, particularly when the printed word appears on these blasted forums where no one can see the other's face or jointly head out to the garage to talk tech. This thread also started at the worst possible time as Ryan and I were trying to run a 350-car event last weekend and my daughter showed up on Monday so my work time has been very limited.

 

So, here's the scoop. We do want help and we just have to figure out how to set up some sort of mechanism to give participants (all of them, not just us Internet-savvy guys) some input in a way that makes all parties involved comfortable. We thought we had something that would work with Dan, but it's clear now that what we had in mind probably wouldn't have worked.

 

To end, we hear ya, we're listening, and we want to do something. However, we're slammed right now and for the next few weeks but we'll posit something here soon. PLEASE discuss this with your colleagues at the races and let's try to come up with a team approach rather than the management/blue collar zeitgeist that is kicking us all squarely in the junk right now. Let's leave the past as it is and focus on the future TOGETHER.

 

I'm offline for now, but I'll use whatever off time I have in the next few weeks to try and come up with a structure that will work so that we can get past this and on to the reason that AI was created in the first place-fun with loud obnoxious pony cars!

 

Vaya con huevos,

-JWL

[mwilson7]

JWL,

 

Congrats on the newborn!!

[Bryan Shugg]

Yes, congrats JWL! That's great news.

[nasaracer32]

John -- CONGRATULATIONS!! Don't know if this is your first or not, but you are about to embark on the most rewarding thing you have ever done. I have two myself and it is by far, the greatest thing I have ever done. Don't be afraid to get peed on (just by the baby).

 

One you catch your breath from it, I would like to chat with you by phone.

Edited March 12, 2004 by Guest

[racercosmo]

It's amazing how a baby changes the attitude of an angry mob.

 

Congratulations John, and tell the same to Mrs. Lindsey.

[onralz]

Congrats John, you know who we hope the baby looks like.

 

Mark Luna

[nasaracer32]

It's amazing how a baby changes the attitude of an angry mob. .

 

I dont't think people are mad, Cos, at least I am not. Plus, hearing of something like a new baby reminds everyone, or at least me, that there are way more important things out there than racing.

[racercosmo]

As Ryan said earlier, it's hard to show emotion on the internet. My comment was intended to be a joke.

I need to remember to use the emoticons.

[z28racergirl]

Welcome to the world, little Lauren!!!

 

I want to ask a question about sponsorship and contingencies. I guess I'm confused about the process. Please, let me know if I'm off track.

 

So, I love my "Brand" brake pads. I tell some other AI drivers that I love them, and they try them out. Turns out they love "Brand" brake pads too, and when they order from "Brand" they give me some props for turning them onto "Brand." After a couple of guys run the "Brand" pads, I realize we have a good thing going and so I call "Brand" and let them know that we like their stuff and that more drivers are planning on trying their stuff. At this point, wouldn't it make sense to talk to "Brand" about sponsoring the series in some way? Say "Brand" says, "if you buy 10 sets of pads, we'll give you a 10% discount," or something along those lines. At this point, I'd say thank you very much! And if I was really on the ball (which I'm often not) I'd think of the other AI regions and start asking guys if they would try "Brand" pads, and then I'd call "Brand" back and say, "hey, not only 10 sets, how about 20 right off the bat for racers all over the country?" Isn't that how sponsorship first, and then possible contingencies should come to be?

 

I mean, we race AI. We run the cars once a month. We run the parts. Ryan and JWL, while being racers, are more importantly directors and are busy with all the other crap like getting us track dates and coordinating the "club." Can't we, amongst ourselves, decide what contingencies we want to pursue? AI does have a "board" and they work with NASA national for stuff like the Toyo contingency (since most everyone races on Toyos--for the contingency) but for AI specific stuff, can't we do it ourselves?

 

Basically, what I'm asking is, isn't it up to us--the AI drivers? Or is there some sort of legal hierarchy that I'm missing?

 

Thanks,

Christine

[Guest]

Christine, the situation that you described in your post is what we on the East Coast have been dealing with for a year. Your story about Brand X is very very close to what happened with Cobalt Friction. I would venture to say that 80-90% of the AI East and OH/IN region ran the Cobalt pads. That is why I was very surprised to hear Ryan F. say that Mr. Lin had little interest in participating with the AI drivers again his year. In fact if you were to call Cobalt and order pads he would give you a discount for running in the American Iron series.

 

I also look at contingencies and series sponsors to be one in the same. The issue for the East concerning sponsors/contingencies is that we were told that ALL sponsorship or contingencies dealings had to be piped through the national office of NASA.

 

It's nice to see that someone out west has finally recognizing the

issue that we on the East have been dealing with.

 

Any thoughts on a solution?

 

BT

[z28racergirl]

My post was purely from a naive position, only asking for clarification. I haven't pushed or asked anyone to be a series sponsor or anything. Let's see what Ryan and JWL say about the national thing before progressing.

 

I have Cobalt brake pads now too, and did in fact get a discount last year. I thought it was awesome and I'm bummed that we didn't support Cobalt enough to make it a good venture for Mr. Lin to continue (if that's the case). I still have the Cobalt stickers on my Camaro, and am still running pads purchased thru them. I was only using brake pads as an example for my question.

 

Please don't think that I'm on the agressive side of this issue, or want major sponsors, or want someone else to pay for my racing, or think that NASA owes me some sponsors, or anything like that. I do think that in our club sport there exists a bit of a two-way street between vendors and racers, and that some sort of symbiotic relationship between us should benefit both parties. I buy a lot of fluids and brake pads and tires, for example. I give a lot of business to people who sell those things, and not only for my racecar--Jason and I own 4 cars and a trailer that all require these things. If I get good service from someone, I'll return with my business. In exchange, I appreciate some help here or there and I'm only thinking that if as a group AI/X/CMC can support a business that it's right to ask for contingency or at least group deals or something.

 

Thanks everyone,

Christine

[Jim P.]

Christine,

You have hit the nail on the head, many businesses only have a small profit margin. Take brake pads, they can make brake pads out of any material, metallic, carbon, fiber, horsehair, un-obtanium, etc and of course the more exotic the materials the more expensive and quite possibly the smaller the profit margin, how many of us can pay $200+ for brake pads?

 

I am sure that with larger AI fields we can probably get a decent discount for a common set of pads, the key is to get all of the racers to combine efforts and buy from the same vendor. I am sure that formula would be very successful in attracting sponsors to our series. So... that means whenever you find something that works for a product, tell ALL of us about it. If enough people call XYZ brakes and ask for the 'AI' Discount hopefully they'll take notice and offer larger percentages and/or prizes for contingencies - we all win in the end!

 

PS. JWL - congrats on the new addition, I can vouch that mine were extremely helpful this past weekend at Nashville - they grow fast!

Edited March 15, 2004 by Guest

[mwilson7]

I mean, we race AI. We run the cars once a month. We run the parts. Ryan and JWL, while being racers, are more importantly directors and are busy with all the other crap like getting us track dates and coordinating the "club." Can't we, amongst ourselves, decide what contingencies we want to pursue? AI does have a "board" and they work with NASA national for stuff like the Toyo contingency (since most everyone races on Toyos--for the contingency) but for AI specific stuff, can't we do it ourselves?

 

Basically, what I'm asking is, isn't it up to us--the AI drivers? Or is there some sort of legal hierarchy that I'm missing?

 

Thanks,

Christine

 

Christine,

 

What you are asking is what we have been asking for. The one thing issue is that Ryan/John have responsibility for both AI and National NASA. We have been told MANY times that all AI class sponsorships/contigencies need to go through Ryan/John. Now we are told they don't do that and we come to your question. If they don't do it who does?

 

I am also glad to hear that you use Cobalt pads. Whenever I spoke to Andi he advised me that he had a great response from the AI and HC racers so I was surprised to hear from Ryan that he wasn't happy with the support.

 

Please don't think that I'm on the agressive side of this issue, or want major sponsors, or want someone else to pay for my racing, or think that NASA owes me some sponsors, or anything like that.

 

What exactly is the agressive side of this issue? Why wouldn't we want major sponsors? Would Toyo be considered a major sponsor? I think the Toyo deal is great! Hopefully I'll be able to pay for some tires this year and reduce my racing costs. Why wouldn't we want to reduce our racing costs? I'm just trying to understand what the west coast racers prospective is on all of this as you guys seem perfectly content with the way things are going while out east there seems to be some unanswered questions. I'm trying to figure out what we are missing....

 

Lastly, just for the record I'm not "jacked" either......

Edited March 15, 2004 by Guest

[EFisher12]

John, congrats on the new baby. We hope you can make another trip out to the snow belt this year for an event.

 

Regards

 

E Fisher #12

AI Mid West

[johnbasf]

We, AI East/Oh-Ind are still getting support from Cobalt this year. We are still getting a 15% discount because of our support of there product. They are not a contigecy sponsor this year but I was told that there would be some "special" things going on this year. Cobalt still supports AI East/OH-IND and not NASA. Thanks to Andie(Cobalt) for his continued support of the RACERS.

[onralz]

I’m going to add my .02 worth for what it is worth. Let me premise this conversation with the fact that I am in full support of any decision that is made, this is just what I would like to see in regards to AI's future involving contingency and where it should come from.

 

When I heard about AI and NASA, one of the big pushes to get drivers like myself to get involved with this series was the “pro” aspect of it regarding coverage, and contingency. I could spend half an hour looking up these emails and posts to misc forums, but I’m not going to waste everyone’s time, just let’ say it was my interpretation. Well, I took it seriously enough to think that someone had the bright idea to get a non volunteer based club together to get American muscle in a class that was inexpensive to run, and had a liberal, but strict rule policy. What I immediately thought of was that someone had realized that the reason drag racing is such a success in many series and parts of the country, because there is a payback at the end of the season, and a reason to go to the tracks. Now, I don’t want to get into a debate about why I race so I’ll just explain that I certainly don’t race for money. I race for fun. But the reality is, if I can get some money back for endorsing a companies product, I can race more and well, have more fun. Simple enough concept. The same concept that drag racers have had for years and has been extremely successful to draw more competitors, and many fans.

 

Let’s back up a bit. The reason road racing has not been a successful spectator sport, and simply not successful at all, is because of the lack of leadership in regards to sanctioning bodies. No sanctioning body has been around in any high level or road racing for more than 15 years except SCCA and we all know what the problems are associated with them. I’m a member, but their politics, and lack of consistency is frightening at times.

The NMRA and classes like them, are a huge success. I’ve seen the P&L statements of both the companies, and some of the drivers. One of the draws is contingency. Last year Robin Lawrence(pure street driver) placed third in series, and received well over 20k in contingencies. Robin has personal sponsors, and NMRA pure street has contingency sponsors that NMRA sets up for everyone. It is a business, and they see that the more endorsements they can setup, the more money they can make.

 

Though it was my interpretation that NASA was taking the responsibility to take on getting and maintaining class sponsors, it now seems that NASA feels that it is in their best interest to have the drivers be responsible for this. They may have had that desire to begin with, but again that wasn't how I took it. From a business perspective, I disagree with this theory. It is to the benefit of NASA to endorse this series and have it grow into a cash flowing business and without contingency, and spectators, you lessen your chances of success. Everyone in the world knows McDonald’s restaurants. Yet I spend $4500. a month in local advertising, per store. When I pull advertising, I lose sales. AI has been successful by word of mouth or mostly by the touch of a keyboard. If AI is going to continue to grow, it is going to take advertising and enticements from NASA to achieve this. Frankly, it is going to have to be sold to a sponsor that AI is an opportunity to expose their business and it is more likely to happen from the directors of AI than one of the competitors as the competitors are not alway privy to what is going on in regards to coverage, and races.

In my humble opinion from watching over the past 4 years, AI has been dependent on word of mouth from the drivers, and broken promises from the directors. This is a harsh statement and before anyone takes it out of context, please let me explain. Directors from misc chapters have told us we would have races at X cost. These prices were based on what's and if's. The costs were to be determined based on number of drivers, and the delusion that it was going to be televised. We were short one driver, and so non of the 33 drivers got the $100 back. We have already hashed this out over another forum, but that simply isn't the way to do business. If we knew ahead of time that we were going to have to pay over $500 to go all the way to VIR without any coverage and the limited track time we had, a lot of us simply wouldn't have gone. Directors have stated over the internet and emails that we had a deal to have television coverage. That “deal” never panned out. If the “deal” wasn’t a done deal, then why discuss it? My interpretation is that it was discussed to try to entice drivers to come out and make fields larger. Well it worked. Largest field ever and who flipped the bill for this? The drivers. Did we still support AI. Hell yes. While I'm stating that, I also support Chris in the VA region. I've already stated that, but though I don't feel this is good business practice, I do honestly understand that it was an iffy deal with the ALMS. Regardless, statements have been made that we would have a better than normal reason to drive 36 hours in my case and those statements weren’t true. If I told my customers that filet were on sale and if they came in they would get it at Y price and I was giving away $100 dollars, I had better do it or they won’t come back. Simply good business practices. I feel that the AI racers have grouped together and taken the hit for the good of the class. That won’t last forever.

Moral of this latest story is the drivers have been the biggest part of making AI what it is today. It is in NASA’s best interest to not have AI a democracy. It is a business and it should be dictating rules to us. Now if they want to take suggestions as they did here, I think that is great and shows wonderful leadership. If they attempt to have the drivers get too involved, it becomes too much of a democracy and it is tough to run a business that way. What I saw when I first got involved with NASA was a winning combination of realizing that NASA is a business and needs to run itself as one, and support from it’s drivers. Drivers are customers and need to be treated as such. Spectators draw more drivers, which draws more competitors, which draws more money. I.E. the more racers AI has, the more money NASA makes. Simple. There isn’t one director of NASA of AI that I don’t like. I hope you all know that and I hope that they all know that I am in full support. If a decision is made to ask the drivers to get contingency, I will support it. I would also volunteer myself to not just sit here typing, but to help make this series grow.

My intentions in this post are just an interpretation of what has been done, and what I think should be done from a customers perspective. Please take this post as simply my opinion on how I would like to see AI ran. I’m not stating that it is being run poorly. I am only stating my opinion of what I think it will take to make AI successful. I am only this passionate about this topic because I see the potential in AI in a business sense, and from a drivers perspective as a series that can take road racing to a new level.

 

Thanks for your time,

Mark Luna

[z28racergirl]

Wow Mark, that was an awesome contribution! Thank you for your time and energy with our group.

 

So, we need a leader, and probably not one of the drivers. Who should that person be?

 

By the way Mark, it was easy for me to forget the VIR fiasco because I wound up not attending. I'm sure it's much harder to forget after such a long and expensive haul. Thank you for reminding me about that. I think that's a very important point in AI history and I wouldn't mind hearing more from "the higher ups" about how that's not going to happen to us again.

 

Thanks again,

Christine

[racercosmo]

This isn't a slam on Ryan, or John, because I know they have a both hands overful with running NASA National in addition to their own chapter, and racing two classes of cars. That is the reason that they should not be running AI. Find somebody else that isn't running in 6 directions at once to take over those reins, it can only help everybody involved. I don't have any idea who could posssibly do this, but that's my opinion. You two can use a load off.

[Jim P.]

This isn't a slam on Ryan, or John, because I know they have a both hands overful with running NASA National in addition to their own chapter, and racing two classes of cars. That is the reason that they should not be running AI. Find somebody else that isn't running in 6 directions at once to take over those reins, it can only help everybody involved. I don't have any idea who could posssibly do this, but that's my opinion. You two can use a load off.

 

I'll second that!

 

Running events and coordinating N different race series is a tremendous load of work!

 

And... add a new baby to all of that and I doubt John will get any sleep in 2004!

[johnbasf]

Does anybody really get this??? I don't care if there is a guy with a $100k transporter there because there is a set of rules in AI that will prevent him from having a car that will kill me. If we had MORE series sponsorship we could have a REAL tech crew that could monitor all the rules we have now. We could even have a DYNO at every race.

 

I don't know if people realize that there are a lot of us "grassroots" racers here that are out of money!!! The "Grassroots" racers here could use some help. I tallied up what I have spent on my car,truck,trailer, and weekend race fees and it is staggering to a "grassroots" racer. I think what people are missing is that the we are losing racers now because of the cost of racing. If I lost an engine, tranny or anything major I would be out for a long time. I think a lot of eyes will be opened in a couple of weeks when the "East" series starts back up. Look at our car count this year.

 

It cost @ $500-$600 dolllars per race weekend not including maintenance for the car. Could we use sponsorship?? He** yes!!! I really like this series and the people I race with but I won't see the same people this year. I know this is a "grassroots" series but it is an exspensive one already!!! I say bring on the transporters if that brings in more sponsors.

 

Thanks for your time.

[HOOVY]

 

I'm Back !!!!!

 

 

Will someone gladly speak up and tell the "GRASSROOTS " story. I think Mr Flaherty & Mr. Lindsay ( congrats on the little one) will enjoy it !!!!

 

Since it is the NEW AI theory!!!

 

 

 

2003 AI East Champ ( I think )

 

PS: Mr av8ss REAL cheap stab at a FIRST CLASS GUY !!!!!

[onralz]

Oh Sheet! Hoovy is back. Anyone who has their name in all caps has got to be scary. Good to see you are still up and alive after the marriage thing. I for one sure like your wife and she did a good job picking you up as well. Welcome home.

 

Mark Luna

[Jim P.]

There goes the neighborhood! Welcome back Hoovy!

 

Congratulations!