Engine setup for a SN95?

[ledfoot2]

I am building a SN95 and right now I have no engine or trans in it. I am looking into different options. I would like the car to be at the lighter end of the the scale, so powerwise I am thinking around 300rwhp. However, I would like to run a carbed motor so that I can just switch out the carbs and run a considerably larger carb to get more power so that I can run in PCA events here locally and not get killed.

 

Any suggestions? Anyone have a good source for motor/transmissions?

 

Thanks

[Grizlbits]

You can get a DSS 331 stroker for $1800 here: http://www.dssracing.com/Bullet_page.htm

 

You can spend more but why? A bunch of guys use these short blocks and do very well in AI. Some of the guys on the west coast spend $15000 for a complete motor, but I am not sure why. It doesn't have to cost that much. Give them a call, talk to Tom (owner) or Eric.

[King Matt]

You can get a DSS 331 stroker for $1800 here: http://www.dssracing.com/Bullet_page.htm

 

You can spend more but why?

Because those short-blocks are a crap shoot at best in terms of reliability in a road racing car. The parts are probably adequate, but the machining and assembly are questionable and I don't trust them to be consistent enough to recommend them. For every example of someone you might have who's had good luck, I can provide at least one who's had bad luck. I agree that you don't need to spend $15,000 on an AI motor, but you get what you pay for, and I would never recommend a cheap mail-order crate engine to anyone in AI. I would suggest a factory crate engine before I'd do that.

 

I'd recommend Liberty's for a trans and Thompson Racing Engines in Detroit for a motor if you don't mind working long-distance.

[Grizlbits]

Well Matt,

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about DSS. They do have a bunch of motors running quite well in AI and other classes. The only machining problems I've had from them wasn't DSS, it was the premachining from FORD on the SVO block. I also had problems with the core shifts in the Ford SVO castings that caused a thin wall condition causing the cylinder to break, again, not the fault of DSS. My new Dart block was machined way, way better than the Ford block. DSS sells 40 bullet short blocks a week on average. They know what they are doing.

 

As far as their machining, they just put in a new Mazak and lots of other equipment. There rods and other parts have tighter tolerances than the Eagle and Scat parts you can buy in the aftermarket.

 

You may know some people who have had bad luck, but the engine builder business is a tough business. All it takes is one guy such as yourself to trash their name for something that may or may not have been their fault. What's the rule of business? A customer that is unhappy tells 28 people, and a customer that is satisfied tells 4 people. I think Deere did a study on it and that was about the numbers as I remember. Engine building is a tough business because all the variables that can happen during assembly of the motor, settings of the carb, fuel injection, gaskets, tourque settings, etc. It is easy to blame things on the engine builder when ultimately it could have been the assembler, a bad combination of parts, or even the break in procedure that caused the problem.

 

I would not be afraid to use any of their shortblocks in a racecar. Matt disagrees. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Matt & I have given ours.

[King Matt]

Did I ever tell you about the mail-order crate engine we got that dropped a main cap into the oil pan during a dyno pull? The impressive thing was we bolted it back on, tightened up the other one that was hanging by a couple of threads, and it ran great after that. Or the mail-order short-block I got that had a bent rod in it? Fortunately noticed that one while I was bolting the heads on. Pulled the rod, had it straightened, and it ran great too. Basically I don't disagree with your above post, but I have seen a lot of these "bargains" from a variety of companies turn out to be not such a great deal.

[Grizlbits]

Hey Matt,

 

Is that gay-ass Burger King guy any relation? That "King" really creeps me out......

[King Matt]

I think it would be hilarious to get a race helmet done up like that.

[nape]

Put a SBC in it, these Fords seem to have a lot of problems...

 

I keed, I keed...

[King Matt]

Fords? Hell, both those examples above were Chebbies, dude! But I have a couple Ford examples too.

[runningmole]

You can contact Brian at ADperformance. Or Ed Curtis at FTI. I'm sure both can give you some pointers. Both could build you a motor too, but it'll cost a few pennies. FWIW, I have an Ed Curtis cam in my Mustang (street car, couple HPDEs a year) and it's great. Passes CA smog (one of my requirements, blower friendly--but I never added boost, and a few other parameters). Made 310rwhp and 351rwtq with 8.5 compression, shorty headers, stock h-pipe, stock air box w/ paper filter, full accessories, timing at 10* and no tune. Imagine what you can do with a race only motor and none of my pesky requirements.

 

http://www.adperformance.com

 

http://www.flowtechinduction.com

[Jeff F]

If you really plan on running light and are looking for ~300hp, 317tq, I'd go with a 302.

 

320ft-lbs at the wheels is pretty typical for a 302, but getting a 331 down that low is difficult.

 

A pretty basic short block (~9:1 compression), some out-of-the box heads (Edelbrock, AFR, whatever), an intake and carb and you should be in business.

[ledfoot2]

Thanks guys, this is helping a lot. Is the minimum weight of 2800lbs just the car? Or is it with the driver? What is the lightest you guys have seen a SN95? It seems like the limiting facot might be the tires, so less lbs per exertible amount of traction would be the best way to go.

[Grizlbits]

2800# with driver.

 

Jeff is right. If you are at 2800, a 331 may be too much. Personally, I have not seen more than a few AI cars under 3000, so set a realistic goal. It is everyone's INTENTION to have the lightest car, but rarely does it happen. Mmmm, doughnuts.

[Micks 41]

It is everyone's INTENTION to have the lightest car, but rarely does it happen. Mmmm, doughnuts.

Oh, how true!!

Now where did I put that Thigh Master.

[bmrracing]

I would reccomend a 331. I recently built 1 in detuned state makes a very reliable 320lb ft torque and horsepower at 308 thats with a 390 cfm carb and timing at 30 degrees total. uncorked it made 388rwhp and 410lb ft The guy has about 7 grand in it, its in a 2950lb AI car. When he's not racing it he dials in the fast tune and has fun.

[marshallmosty]

I have a 2825lb AI car and I'm hopefully going to hit the 297/313 mark come next dyno session with a stock bottom end 302.

 

For me, the decision came down to stress on everything I'm having to use. Tires, brakes, shocks, and engine. Lower HP/TQ motors "should" last longer... right?

 

I'm currently fighting with a pesky 3650lb 2005 Mustang (David Capps) who is putting down close to 400 RWTQ. It looks like a rubber band on some of our "power" tracks. He pulls me by 8 lengths on the straight and I'm all over him in the braking zone and corners. Back and forth. I just have to hope he overdrives his tires and brakes and forgets to hold a defensive line because I can't hold him off on a 1500 ft straight. 40 minute races are my friend!

 

It's cheaper to build "lightness" than power.

[Jeff F]

I would reccomend a 331...uncorked it made 388rwhp and 410lb ft

410RWft-lb? That's one hell of a 331.

[bmrracing]

The 331 makes a lot of torque more so than a 302 or 306. this combo uses a light weight bottom end (Eagle) 10.5 comp,AFR185 heads Comp Cams hyd roller and edelbrock airgap intake. I go over kill on the valve train because that is the weekest link in the small block Ford . It will turn 7 grand but useful power is 3200-6250. I have the dyno sheets. The intention is to be able to run the engine in the in the power curve and it should live for several seasons with just normal maintenance. Valve springs are the worst culprits that usually cause these engines to let go so I usually change them out at least every other season or 20 races aproximately. in the detuned state for AI you really are not stressing the engine at all and with the use of a rev limiter and shift lights it should live a long life. The only problems i have seen is the oiling system and I believe I have that solved now. I run a 306 in my AIX car that makes 420rwhp and has been together for going on 4 years. I routinely turn it well over 7 grand. I have been building small block Fords for almost 40 years.

[ST#97]

You are probably going to think I am crazy but hear me out. You want LIGHT weight on the nose of the car, AI legal and 300rwhp....

 

Here is your combo.... 96 Lincoln mark 8 short block with 99 up 2V PI heads and intake of your choice with a set of cams and long tubes....It's all aluminum, light weight and with the right porting and cams, 300rwhp is easy and has around 320 tq....You can even do this with junkyard parts to get started for around $5k and when the time comes, get a fully built shortblock with all the "tricks"....

 

I am running a big bore aluminum block in mine and the balance is great with the 80lbs off the nose of the car compared to the iron shortblock. Sitting the 320/340 range with my setup and thinking of different cams to increase some duration.

 

They even sell carb setups for these motors now! But, if you want super simple...this probably isn't your project!

[King Matt]

Bill,

 

That 331 sounds like a real nice combo. How big is the cam? From what I've seen, 7 grand is really pushing a hyd. roller cam. Have you tried running solid flat-tappet cams in something like that? Seems like it would be a bit easier on the valvetrain than a hyd. roller. That 306 is pretty stout too. That must be running some real compression!

[Jeff F]

Bill, is that 410 ft-lb at the crank or at the wheels? I've seen plenty of 327/331's that make up to 360ish at the wheels, but 410 at the wheels with that displacement and compression is extrodinary. Making 400+hp is no problem as long as you have enough flow and revs.

 

I agree that an AI engine should and can last a long time. The 327 in my car is 7 years old. Never even had the valve covers off until last year. Still makes great power (330/360 unrestricted, ~310/330 restriced) and has great oil pressure.

 

I'm also curious what you have to do to spin 7K+ with a hydro roller. I limit mine to 6250 because it's a hydro roller. I'd like to spin it a little more, but the conversion to a solid roller is expensive.

[bmrracing]

I have Comp Cams grind custom grinds that I spec . I try and make as much torque as I can and cam profiles have a lot to do with that. and that is at the wheels. the torque falls off dramaticlly after 6300.

 

The 306 is a solid roller with huge valve springs and shaft rocker system. it will go to 9500 easly but power drops off around 7500. light weight crank 14-1 comp it really thumps pretty good.

 

I am looking at retireing it this year and building a 358 4.125 bore with a 3.25 stroke it should build a ton of torque. thats using a Dart block.