'07 Rules Pre-release Talk--split topic from Provis.

[phoenixR34]

 

SCCA (the most feared organization when it comes to changing stuff like this it seems) even allows you to run these in Stock class autocrossing... to thier full capibilities too. They hardly let you change wheels and de-option your car but they'll let me do that. (bring on the we're not the SCCA comments ). Just an example of how silly this seems to me to count as a modification. It is a repair.

 

Yeah, and in stock class SCCA autocrossing there are certain cars you *don't buy* because there aren't bolt kits available, thus making the cars uncompetitive... ie. every Nissan. That right there tells me that while yes it's a "repair", it's also a modification. When you don't buy a $30,000 car to autocross simply because you can't get an $18 bolt kit that will give you 3° of camber, that "repair" is a pretty significant one wouldn't you say?

 

the car has a crappy part, I replaced it, and got points for using its capabilities.......

 

Frankly I don't see what the difference is. You're admitting it helps by having the bolts (by "using them to their full capabilities"), but then asking not to be penalized for it? Use the stock bolts or the crash bolts within factory spec and get no points. Max the crash bolts out, get more camber and take the two-point hit. The extra camber should be *well* worth the two points, it almost always is (extra camber). If you don't think it is, put in stock bolts and drop the points.

 

the S2000 guys, etc whoever/whatever/etc aren't getting charged the same way

 

Yeah, and the S2000 should be classed accordingly with that thought in mind. IMO things like this should be considered in addition to HP ratings, tire size.

[Shawn M.]

 

Yeah, and in stock class SCCA autocrossing there are certain cars you *don't buy* because there aren't bolt kits available, thus making the cars uncompetitive... ie. every Nissan. That right there tells me that while yes it's a "repair", it's also a modification. When you don't buy a $30,000 car to autocross simply because you can't get an $18 bolt kit that will give you 3° of camber, that "repair" is a pretty significant one wouldn't you say?

 

 

Yup, thats why my Beetle Turbo S was never competative in GS. Had to have a Mini Cooper or a Celica..... I digress....

[slink]

quote="slink"]i am SURE somewhere greg said camber is free (no points ) for 2007.-

[kbrew8991]

Frankly I don't see what the difference is. You're admitting it helps by having the bolts (by "using them to their full capabilities"), but then asking not to be penalized for it? Use the stock bolts or the crash bolts within factory spec and get no points. Max the crash bolts out, get more camber and take the two-point hit. The extra camber should be *well* worth the two points, it almost always is (extra camber). If you don't think it is, put in stock bolts and drop the points.

 

Yeah, and the S2000 should be classed accordingly with that thought in mind. IMO things like this should be considered in addition to HP ratings, tire size.

 

the original bolts don't hold an alignment well at all. but you can get close to 2* out of them... and they are not made anymore and you should replace them every alignment as they are made to strech when torqued

 

if I replace them with the redesigned bolts, I can only set the car to 1.25* without points. see what I mean about that wording being pretty assinine??

 

and the +7 the car comes with should more than cover these bolts used to thier full extent (2.5-3.0) imho anyway....

 

bring on free camber for all tho it won't help those slow TTE Miatas and Breadwagons anyway

[Greg G.]

i am SURE somewhere greg said camber is free (no points ) for 2007.

 

Oh yeah, that was in the "appease Ken Brewer" thread.

 

- Mark

 

Ken =

 

Hmmm, I am SURE somewhere Greg said camber is free (no points) in 2007.

[phoenixR34]

Hmmm, I am SURE somewhere Greg said camber is free (no points) in 2007.

 

Is there a way you can reverse that decision? I'm having too much fun arguing in this thread!

[Greg G.]

Ok, camber is free for everyone that doesn't own a Nissan. Camber changes to Nissan's = +6 pts.

[warrtalon]

I read several pages, but I couldn't make it through all 9, and I'm not sure what thread this one came from, so I don't have all that previous information.

 

I just want to make a point about using dynos, and this point may have already been made:

 

- What would be the standard? Dynojet? They read the highest on average.

- What correction factor would be used? Uncorrected, SAE, STD?

- What about altitude? Altitude makes an enormous difference in power

 

For example, I put down 300whp/337wtq uncorrected here in Colorado on a Dynojet - that is my true power. However, if you apply the SAE correction for that day's conditions, I put down 378whp/425wtq. I imagine that would make a big difference in points/classification, no? So, let's say you wanted to use SAE in an effort to even out differences in weather and altitude. Well, then you'd have to come up with a suitable correction factor for turbo cars, since SAE only works for normally aspirated cars. The CF of 1.25 that I had that day was about double the actual CF for my car. I know this, because I also dyno'd at sea level before moving and put down 341whp/361wtq, which is pretty much between those 2 numbers.

 

I was going to start competing in TTA this year, but it looks like the turbo rules may make it tough on me. I will be running with a stock turbo that has simply had the turbine housing ported and jet coated - 5whp gain maybe, but it looks like it counts as a turbo upgrade in the rules.

[StealthTT]

I just want to make a point about using dynos, and this point may have already been made:

 

- What would be the standard? Dynojet? They read the highest on average.

- What correction factor would be used? Uncorrected, SAE, STD?

- What about altitude? Altitude makes an enormous difference in power

 

Do what it takes to keep you from dynoing more on NASA's dynojet. If you know that the dyno you are using is 10% lower, then compensate for that. So if/when you are checked on NASA's dyno, you will be okay. I'd then leave yourself a small cushion to make sure you don't "break out".

 

Nothing's ever fair, but sanctioning bodies can do their best to be fair. The only problem is the level of fairness is directly proportional to the amount of rules, the time spent on compliance, and the headaches from problems that arise.

 

It's not perfect, but it's probaby the best compromise.

 

p.s. I still can't figure out how the GPS horsepower measurement would work. I think I'm making it too hard. Can you just use these simple grade school calculations:

 

Work = Force x Distance

 

Force = Mass x Acceleration

 

Acceleration = (Final Velocity - Intial Velocity) / Time

 

So combine all 3 and you get:

 

Work = {Mass x [(Final Velocity - Initial Velocity) / Time]} x Distance

[warrtalon]

I don't know what you mean by NASA's dyno. I know there is no NASA dyno in our region - they send race cars to random dynos around the area without regard for what type of dyno it is.

[StealthTT]

I don't know what you mean by NASA's dyno. I know there is no NASA dyno in our region - they send race cars to random dynos around the area without regard for what type of dyno it is.

 

Oh.

 

I was under the impression that each region had a dyno in a truck that came to each race in the region.

 

Just to make sure we're on the same page. I am referring to the offical NASA dyno used to verify the car is making the declared horsepower either after a challenge is made or a spotcheck. Have I been given faulty info?

[wm577]

- What would be the standard? Dynojet? They read the highest on average.

- What correction factor would be used? Uncorrected, SAE, STD?

- What about altitude? Altitude makes an enormous difference in power

 

also the gear you do the run in can make a big differance. Try a run in 2nd gear, then do another run in 4th and you will see lower numbers for the 2nd gear run (thus less points).

 

Everyone should have to be in the same gear, (4th, maybe) and they should have to be on the same size tires, and FD that they race with while on the dyno.

[StealthTT]

- What would be the standard? Dynojet? They read the highest on average.

- What correction factor would be used? Uncorrected, SAE, STD?

- What about altitude? Altitude makes an enormous difference in power

 

also the gear you do the run in can make a big differance. Try a run in 2nd gear, then do another run in 4th and you will see lower numbers for the 2nd gear run (thus less points).

 

Everyone should have to be in the same gear, (4th, maybe) and they should have to be on the same size tires, and FD that they race with while on the dyno.

 

It's not necessarily the gear, but the drive ratio. 4th gear could be 1:1 in one car while .82:1 in another car such as my Dodge Stealth.

 

As I said before, the best thing to do is declare the power you think you'll make if tested by NASA plus a safety cushion. It's not perfect, but it's probably the best way to keep things fair. Anyone have a better idea? Is GPS better?

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Just for your useless information:

My transaxle drive ratios

1st - 3.071 (43/14)

2nd - 1.739 (40/23)

3rd - 1.103 (32/29)

4th - 0.823 (28/34)

5th - 0.659 (31/47)

 

Final Drive Ratio

1st - 12.200

2nd - 6.908

3rd - 4.383

4th - 3.271

5th - 2.620

 

So if you do the math at 7000rpm I can hit 205mph if I overcome wind and other friction resistance.

The math works, because I know I've shifted from 4th to 5th at 145mph at Reno-Fernley Raceway.

[warrtalon]

Haha, no, we definitely have no portable AWD dyno in our region that goes to our events. That would be funny. I guess maybe bigger/older regions may have it, but out here, they just tell the racers to go to one from a list of "certified" dyno shops. Gear, correction factor, and dyno type are not specified, and if there were a challenge, I have no idea what they would do.

 

I'm trying to not to focus on my region, though, because I hope to compete nationally, so I am trying to prepare for what will happen there. It probably won't matter. I'll just be in TTU with a stock turbo with little chance for being competitive until I can 1) do a big turbo upgrade, and/or 2) become a great driver, haha.

[bbyevo]

Here in the OH/IN region we have a local shop that has a portable 2-wheel dyno come to all the events. That's what was used at nationals. No portable AWD dynos that I know of.

[Rob S.]

So if you do the math at 7000rpm I can hit 205mph if I overcome wind and other friction resistance.

The math works, because I know I've shifted from 4th to 5th at 145mph at Reno-Fernley Raceway.

 

Vehicle speed is based on gearing (including tire diameter) and engine speed. Horsepower determines whether or not wind and rolling resistance can be overcome to reach max engine speed in each gear. Horsepower, given perfect traction, determines the acceleration rate therefore time required to reach a given engine speed with specific gearing. Your car cannot obtain 205 mph in 4th at 7000 rpm unless you tire diameter is 38 in. (I guess the rims wouldn't be called Dubs but Tres ) or your final drive ratio is 2.6. I calculated that with stock gearing and tires your car can go approximately 138 mph @ 7000 rpm, which is in line with 145 mph based on tire diameter differences.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Guest

[phoenixR34]

For example, I put down 300whp/337wtq uncorrected here in Colorado on a Dynojet - that is my true power. However, if you apply the SAE correction for that day's conditions, I put down 378whp/425wtq. I imagine that would make a big difference in points/classification, no? So, let's say you wanted to use SAE in an effort to even out differences in weather and altitude. Well, then you'd have to come up with a suitable correction factor for turbo cars, since SAE only works for normally aspirated cars. The CF of 1.25 that I had that day was about double the actual CF for my car. I know this, because I also dyno'd at sea level before moving and put down 341whp/361wtq, which is pretty much between those 2 numbers.

 

I was going to start competing in TTA this year, but it looks like the turbo rules may make it tough on me. I will be running with a stock turbo that has simply had the turbine housing ported and jet coated - 5whp gain maybe, but it looks like it counts as a turbo upgrade in the rules.

 

There isn't a correction factor for each car, the CF is for weather/atmospheric conditions. Altitude is figured in as well. Theoretically if everyone used a DynoJet with the SAE CF, numbers should be "equal". We have six DynoJets in Phoenix and many people have tested on all six to see the differences.. we're talking 1-2% with the same car. Not bad. Technically there are different correction factors for turbo cars, but it's not much of a difference.

 

As for your turbo being ported and jet coated, that's something you have to consider beforehand. If you *know* you're gonna get penalized or it'll be a hassle if you port it, make sure the extra porting is worth it! If you gain "maybe 5hp" from the porting and jet coat, perhaps that's not the best mod you can do for TT. Carrying 7 points for something that adds maybe 5hp isn't a very efficient use of points.

 

You can browse through the rules and find all kinds of mods that carry huge points, which on certain cars aren't worth it. For instance, if you changed compression from 9.5:1 to 9.6:1 on a Nissan Altima, that's probably not the best way to spend 8 points. You understand what I'm trying to say...

Edited November 17, 2006 by Guest

[Shawn M.]

 

Oh.

 

I was under the impression that each region had a dyno in a truck that came to each race in the region.

 

 

DUDE!

This is NASA not NOPI!!!!!

[warrtalon]

There isn't a correction factor for each car, the CF is for weather/atmospheric conditions. Altitude is figured in as well. Theoretically if everyone used a DynoJet with the SAE CF, numbers should be "equal". We have six DynoJets in Phoenix and many people have tested on all six to see the differences.. we're talking 1-2% with the same car. Not bad. Technically there are different correction factors for turbo cars, but it's not much of a difference.

 

Actually, this is a very common and damaging misconception. SAE is ONLY made for non-turbo cars. It absolutely does not work for turbo'd cars. SAE uses the barometric pressure to determine how significant the correction factor is, and if you are at 6000' like I am, then the C/F is GIGANTIC. In my hometown of Colorado Springs, the C/F can get as high as 1.32. That C/F is decently usable for N/A cars, but it is way, WAY too high for turbo'd cars. You don't see this effect at (or near) sea level, because the only change in the C/F comes from weather conditions (temp/humidity), so you see C/Fs ranging from .97-1.03 for the most part.

 

The example I just gave showed you how I went from 341whp/361wtq uncorrected to 300whp/337wtq uncorrected just by moving from VA to CO. The C/F on my sea level run was .98 while my C/F on the altitude run was 1.25. The resulting numbers are nowhere close to each other. However, an N/A car that dynos at sea level then at altitude will have numbers that correlate closely to the C/F. This is a long and heated debate that has been proven many times, but people not at altitude don't even know. I didn't know until I moved.

 

To further support my argument, I also attended drag strips at each altitude to verify the trap speeds. At sea level, I ran [email protected] with 305whp uncorrected on a Dynojet, then up here I ran [email protected] with 300whp uncorrected on a Dynojet in nearly identical weather conditions (60*) but of course with many more mods than I had during the sea level run. I have over 250 drag runs in my Evo, so I am very experienced and consistent, plus I have many reference points for et/mph at a given WHP level (all Dynojet).

[Markus]

Yup, thats why my Beetle Turbo S was never competative in GS.

 

Did you run the teddy bear wheels on it?

[StealthTT]

- So if you do the math at 7000rpm I can hit 205mph if I overcome wind and other friction resistance.

The math works, because I know I've shifted from 4th to 5th at 145mph at Reno-Fernley Raceway.

 

Vehicle speed is based on gearing (including tire diameter) and engine speed. Horsepower determines whether or not wind and rolling resistance can be overcome to reach max engine speed in each gear. Horsepower, given perfect traction, determines the acceleration rate therefore time required to reach a given engine speed with specific gearing. Your car cannot obtain 205 mph in 4th at 7000 rpm unless you tire diameter is 38 in. (I guess the rims wouldn't be called Dubs but Tres ) or your final drive ratio is 2.6. I calculated that with stock gearing and tires your car can go approximately 138 mph @ 7000 rpm, which is in line with 145 mph based on tire diameter differences.

 

I said I could hit 205mph if I overcame the resistances, because you have to have enough hp to overcome those. I don't know that I do. I'll have to run the numbers in one of my calculators and see what I need for hp to hit max speed.

 

I know I can't obtain 205mph in 4th, but I did obtain 145mph in 4th. Go back and read it again.

 

Here's my math:

Speed in gear (MPH) = [RPM x tire diameter in inches] / [final gear ratio x 336]

 

Tires are 245/45/17's that are supposedly 25.68inches per the manufacturer.

 

4th gear

= [7000 x 25.68] / [3.271 x 336]

= 163.6 <-----I must've shortshifted. A few times I really nailed the fast sweeping entry to the straight and hit much higher final speeds at the end of the straight. I probably got scared and shortshifted watching that left hand sweeper come at me at 150+ mph.

 

5th gear

= [7000 x 25.68] / [2.62 x 336]

= 204.2

 

The "336" constant might be rounded off. I can't recall the way I found that to put into my excel calculator. But it'd have to be 400 to hit the 138mph you found. Now I'm curious and I have to go find the constant.

[StealthTT]

 

Oh.

 

I was under the impression that each region had a dyno in a truck that came to each race in the region.

 

 

DUDE!

This is NASA not NOPI!!!!!

 

I have no idea where I got that idea.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mobile AWD dyno at the Nationals

 

 

we have the ability to snatch the car from impound and dyno test it at many tracks.

 

 

Actually, we did use the dyno at the Championships to help determine if there was any evidence that a car had more modifications than were listed.

 

Regionally, TT Directors have the same power, and there are often dynos at the tracks.

[firehawkclone]

i am SURE somewhere greg said camber is free (no points ) for 2007.

 

Oh yeah, that was in the "appease Ken Brewer" thread.

 

- Mark

 

Ken =

 

Hmmm, I am SURE somewhere Greg said camber is free (no points) in 2007.

 

SO my upper A-arms (+5) are free next year! If someone gets free camber bolts, I should get a shorter upper A/A so I can slide my lower A/A out more! (more camber)

 

Now lets talk exhuast systems and tires And cars with a straight rear drive axle or FWD get 20 free points, and AWD cars get +20

[Shawn M.]

I have no idea where I got that idea.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mobile AWD dyno at the Nationals

we have the ability to snatch the car from impound and dyno test it at many tracks.

 

Actually, we did use the dyno at the Championships to help determine if there was any evidence that a car had more modifications than were listed.

 

Regionally, TT Directors have the same power, and there are often dynos at the tracks.

 

 

Yeah, he does that.

 

The only place ive seen a dyno at an event is at the Championship event. Keep in mind that I have only done events in CA so I really dont know what im talking about. YMMV.

 

I dont know about what the other regions do (Greg has been to alot of events across this land so maybe he does in fact, know something.... I doubt it.) but I rather doubt other regions are going to the trouble of bringing a dyno to local events? I dunno. Its also been my understanding that just bringing a dyno sheet has been good enough too. -shrug-

 

I suspect that as time goes on, the rules will change and the requirement for an at track dyno will be the norm.

 

Egnogg coffee is yummy!!

[Shawn M.]

SO my upper A-arms (+5) are free next year! If someone gets free camber bolts, I should get a shorter upper A/A so I can slide my lower A/A out more! (more camber)

 

Now lets talk exhuast systems and tires And cars with a straight rear drive axle or FWD get 20 free points, and AWD cars get +20

 

 

 

Wont work, you are a TTU car next year, get used to it!

Shouldnt of went so fast last weekend, ya skreud yerself!!