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Posted

I used to race mountion bikes. and they had an interesting take on classifiing riders to make competitive riding groups.

 

Any rider was classified in an age group. For example, I rode in the masters group which was 35-44.

 

And according to his ability (beginner, novice, expert, semi-pro, pro)

 

When a beginner won a race or placed well in several he or she moved up a group. Now in Novice, again when the rider won or places in several races he or she moved up. So any rider of any ability rose to a level of competition where he or she belonged and could race competitivly but not dominate the class.

 

I started in beginner my first year. I did well and moved up to novice where I couldn't win a race but I did well usually finishing in the top third of the class between 5th and 10th. Beginner was below my ability and expert just out of my ability. Novice was my home.

 

The corralary here to auto racing would be to have no car classifications. Then as drivers win or do very well repeatedly, move them up a group regardless of car or car modifications. There would be no point system. No dynos. No cheating. Just run what you brung and when you spank the field you move up. As simple as that.

 

This is a diabolically simple classing system.

 

Any comments?

Posted

HPDE is kinda like that. Only you class yourself.

Posted

Once you reach HPDE3 you are basically just as fast as the next guy and limited by the car. Those in 4 should in theory be able to drive any car within a couple seconds of it's fastest possible laptime. That said, the current TT classification is awsome. If you are not doing to well then either the car needs to be adjusted to be more comptetive or the driver needs more seat time.

 

Also if someone is a "beginner" they shouldn't be racing, it could push them into driving beyond their cars and themselves limits. That's no good...

Posted

I'll be in TTU next year. I've been reading lots of posts in the TT forum. And it seems everybody is unhappy with something or the other regarding rules. That is why I started thinking about a classification system for TT that was more driver oriented than car oriented.

 

You win several and you move up. Doesn't matter what your car has got on it. Seems like it would make good competitive speed groups without the endless nitpicky rules. Although it sure would be a stretch to imagine it actually being implimented. No rules to bitch about? Impossible.

  • National Staff
Posted

Dan, mountain bikes are not cars. The only time that a system like you describe works is with a Spec series, where the cars are prepped exactly alike (like the Legends). The idea of NASA TT is to try put the cars in classes that are comparable, so drivers can compete on a level playing field--and usually, the best drivers win. Under your scenario, a crap driver can come out with an amazing machine ($$$$$$$$$), and be a "Champion".

 

Also, don't get the wrong idea by reading these forums that "everybody is unhappy with something or the other regarding rules." First, there is always a vocal minority that will complain about anything and everything. Second, there are many hundreds of TT drivers that (unfortunately) don't ever post here. Third, the reason that NASA TT is growing exponentially is that most drivers do like the rules.

 

Lastly, the rules are changing regarding TTU--more info at the end of the month.

Posted

I don't want to sound like a kiss-up, afterall I do run in the same class as Greg and I finished 2nd behind him the last 4 races, but I like the TT rules.

Here is why:

First of all, you can bring out any car you already have, (Low $$ because you don't have to invest $) and there is a class for you.

 

Second in this is low cost because you can pick and choose what to upgrade vs. in spec class where you pretty much haveto buy Everything everyoune else is running to be compatitive. This picking and choosing is where it becomes interesting. Since all the cars are different you really haveto see what will be of the greatest benefit to your car. You have to use your head. Anyone can go out and buy all the parts that will make them fast, and they will be fast too! they will probably end up in TTU from all the points, but to stay in a lower class takes more of a challenge. Some changes is a bigger benefit to some cars and not to others, so if it cost you 8 points to do a mod and it will only make you .5 sec quicker, guess what: don't do it, don't complain about that some other car will be 3 sec. faster with the same mod. Find something else to change.

 

Third, I like it because it brings together a lots of different cars. It's not a bunch of Hondas or Camaros/Mustangs, all whith the same general set up.

For example: I run a heavy, RWD, front engine, V8 with wide tires, and close to stock suspension, stock brakes vs. a light, FWD, fron engine, turbo I4 with "narrow" tires and full suspension and brakes. They have close to the same HP and are pretty equal on the track. Once my driving improves I might even win. You can't ask for better than that, two compleatly different approches, both in TTC.

 

I think the rules work, you just have to make them work for you, that is what makes them interesting.

Posted
Under your scenario, a crap driver can come out with an amazing machine ($$$$$$$$$), and be a "Champion".

I don't know, Greg. When I was a club level road racing bicyclist, the owner of the bike shop that supported us used to ride with us once in a while. One day just before we hit the road, he grabbed a bike from the junk pile and saddled up. The thing had a rusted chain, bent rims, maybe four or five working gears (out of 10 or 12), and after about 20 miles he STILL managed to kick our butts .

 

That does not mean I'm in support of the idea for us.

Posted

I like the premise but don't believe it would be a good fit in auto racing. As had been stated previously...by the time you're racing you should be reasonably quick and safe. A reasonably quick driver in a porsche should always beat a reasonably quick driver in a Civic. The poor bloke in the Civic really doesn't have a shot.

 

Again, fundamentally, I see the advantages. However, unlike the rusty mountain bike example, there are VAST differences between cars...especially when you throw race preparation into the mix.

 

As a very crude example I offer something as basic as 0-60 times in cars. The same driver could achieve 3.4 seconds in one car and 8.7 seconds in another...Through no skill change/application. It is all car.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find a bike that would more than double a given rider's speed whereas this is very easy to find in the automotive world.

  • Members
Posted
I vote for a pilot program in the SoCal Region.

 

Greg, we need to drug test the OH/IN TT & PT Director.

Ayup!

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
Dan, mountain bikes are not cars. The only time that a system like you describe works is with a Spec series, where the cars are prepped exactly alike (like the Legends). The idea of NASA TT is to try put the cars in classes that are comparable, so drivers can compete on a level playing field--and usually, the best drivers win. Under your scenario, a crap driver can come out with an amazing machine ($$$$$$$$$), and be a "Champion".

 

Also, don't get the wrong idea by reading these forums that "everybody is unhappy with something or the other regarding rules." First, there is always a vocal minority that will complain about anything and everything. Second, there are many hundreds of TT drivers that (unfortunately) don't ever post here. Third, the reason that NASA TT is growing exponentially is that most drivers do like the rules.

 

Lastly, the rules are changing regarding TTU--more info at the end of the month.

 

Why not just dyno and weigh every car and put the participating cars in hp/weight ratio classes and be done with the points system? I can't put on a nice loud muffler so I can hear my heal and toe downshifts or put on an underdrive pully to save my equipment without bumping to TTR? It seems silly for a glorified HPDE.

 

I'm sorry but the points system seems far to complex and entices cheaters. TT is just a FUN upgrade to HPDE and the points system makes it appear to be higher stakes racing which it isn't. Weigh and dyno the cars and divide them into 10 or 15 ratio groups and be done with it.

Posted
Dan, mountain bikes are not cars. The only time that a system like you describe works is with a Spec series, where the cars are prepped exactly alike (like the Legends). The idea of NASA TT is to try put the cars in classes that are comparable, so drivers can compete on a level playing field--and usually, the best drivers win. Under your scenario, a crap driver can come out with an amazing machine ($$$$$$$$$), and be a "Champion".

 

Also, don't get the wrong idea by reading these forums that "everybody is unhappy with something or the other regarding rules." First, there is always a vocal minority that will complain about anything and everything. Second, there are many hundreds of TT drivers that (unfortunately) don't ever post here. Third, the reason that NASA TT is growing exponentially is that most drivers do like the rules.

 

Lastly, the rules are changing regarding TTU--more info at the end of the month.

 

Why not just dyno and weigh every car and put the participating cars in hp/weight ratio classes and be done with the points system?

  • Members
Posted
Why not just dyno and weigh every car and put the participating cars in hp/weight ratio classes and be done with the points system?

 

 

For each event?

We would have to be there 2 days in advance to dyno all the cars.

 

To me, this is getting way to serious considering we are NOT making any money from it. ITS FOR FUN! and all the picky nit picking is ruining the fun aspect of it.

Posted

Contrary to popular belief, there aren't enough of us '4w' guys to make a separate classification. And the ones that do run TT are are from all over the performance spectrum. How would you split us up within the class?

Posted
Dan, mountain bikes are not cars. The only time that a system like you describe works is with a Spec series, where the cars are prepped exactly alike (like the Legends). The idea of NASA TT is to try put the cars in classes that are comparable, so drivers can compete on a level playing field--and usually, the best drivers win. Under your scenario, a crap driver can come out with an amazing machine ($$$$$$$$$), and be a "Champion".

 

Also, don't get the wrong idea by reading these forums that "everybody is unhappy with something or the other regarding rules." First, there is always a vocal minority that will complain about anything and everything. Second, there are many hundreds of TT drivers that (unfortunately) don't ever post here. Third, the reason that NASA TT is growing exponentially is that most drivers do like the rules.

 

Lastly, the rules are changing regarding TTU--more info at the end of the month.

 

Why not just dyno and weigh every car and put the participating cars in hp/weight ratio classes and be done with the points system?

 

 

no offence intended, but do you not understand the value of suspension and other car prep items? That is why the points system is there.

cheers,

bruce

Posted

 

no offence intended, but do you not understand the value of suspension and other car prep items? That is why the points system is there.

cheers,

bruce

 

I think that is part of the issue. Some cars coming standard with far better suppensions systems then a majority of cars. Yet these coil over suppensions are STOCK ( non-point adderes) on a few cars. But when a comparible coil over suppension is added to another car, there are points added.

 

Or some cars come with BBKs where as many cars dont. Again if the same brand BBK is added to another car, points are added.

 

Not all cars have the same stock equipment. So IMHO starting from each manufacutres 'stock' off the show room floor, can not be compaired across the board.

 

Hopefully the new point system will compare the same apples together. Not just Mcantosh Apples to GAIA Apples to Green Delcsious Apples.

Posted

the starting classification of the car accounts for what comes standard.

cheers,

bruce

 

 

 

no offence intended, but do you not understand the value of suspension and other car prep items? That is why the points system is there.

cheers,

bruce

 

I think that is part of the issue. Some cars coming standard with far better suppensions systems then a majority of cars. Yet these coil over suppensions are STOCK ( non-point adderes) on a few cars. But when a comparible coil over suppension is added to another car, there are points added.

 

Or some cars come with BBKs where as many cars dont. Again if the same brand BBK is added to another car, points are added.

 

Not all cars have the same stock equipment. So IMHO starting from each manufacutres 'stock' off the show room floor, can not be compaired across the board.

 

Hopefully the new point system will compare the same apples together. Not just Mcantosh Apples to GAIA Apples to Green Delcsious Apples.

Posted
the starting classification of the car accounts for what comes standard.

cheers,

bruce

 

 

 

That is the challange. Some cars come with far better "standard" fetures then other cars in the same so called class.

 

 

We will see come Dec.

  • National Staff
Posted
the starting classification of the car accounts for what comes standard.

cheers,

bruce

 

 

 

That is the challange. Some cars come with far better "standard" fetures then other cars in the same so called class.

 

 

We will see come Dec.

 

Feel free to e-mail me any examples that you have of cars that fit your description so we can re-evaluate their base classes.

Posted

 

Feel free to e-mail me any examples that you have of cars that fit your description so we can re-evaluate their base classes.

 

I will put some details together for you Greg.

 

and thanks for the opportunity.

 

Tom

  • National Staff
Posted

If anyone wants to send me anything regarding base classes, I need to get it ASAP for review. The initial release of the rules this week will not include the '07 or late '06 cars. Those will be released probably a few days to a week later. I really don't like changing base classes after the rules are released because our competitors start making plans and spending money depending on their base class. All of the e-mails, P.M.'s, and conversations about base classes over the past year have been noted and reviewed. So, any last minute comments need to come in very quickly. Thanks.

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