Paul Posted November 5, 2006 Posted November 5, 2006 Any rules changes for H1 or HU for '07? Still--- no non-stock parts allowed in the bottom end for H1? I noticed on the 944-Spec forum that there might be some rule changes- to hopefully bring larger fields from other org's to the 944Spec group. Is this true for HC? Paul Quote
ekim952522000 Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 I hoping there is not very many because I am building my car with the 06 rule book reight now. Quote
Paul Posted November 6, 2006 Author Posted November 6, 2006 Yeah changes kind of suck sometimes- Like --- Moton's are legal after I sold mine : ) I'm was looking more towards reliability mods for H1 B20's like allowing sleeves, posting, pistons and rods. I have noticed another series allows these mods and they seem to have increased numbers. Paul Quote
chad Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 I'm was looking more towards reliability mods for H1 B20's like allowing sleeves, posting, pistons and rods. as long as i'm on the rules committee that will never happen.... a b20 is strong without those mods....a b20 won the last race at summit point!! those parts dont' make it more reliable if you keep it at a decent rpm limit!! Quote
ekim952522000 Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 Thats great to hear Chad! in that caes I hope you are on the rules comitte forever. HC should never allow pistons, rods,m or sleeving in any engine. It would send the cost threw the roof and open a huge can of worms. the OEM bottom end rule is the only thing that makes H1 affordable and keeps the competetion balanced. My 2 cents Quote
jmeris Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 I'm was looking more towards reliability mods for H1 B20's like allowing sleeves, posting, pistons and rods. Paul Honda OEM pistons and rods are plenty strong and can last over a season. Sleeving the B20 is something I favor-As some of us know, I cracked my sleeves at Nationals this year-shifting at 8.5k so at least please consider this. jmeris #47 Quote
BrianZ Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 Dont you think that is part of the Challenge?... Having limitation to what the motor will do? if your allowed to sleve the motor what is the next componet to fail? just my thoughts . . . Quote
mikeski38 Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 Thats great to hear Chad! in that caes I hope you are on the rules comitte forever. HC should never allow pistons, rods,m or sleeving in any engine. It would send the cost threw the roof and open a huge can of worms. the OEM bottom end rule is the only thing that makes H1 affordable and keeps the competetion balanced. My 2 cents Unfortunately, Aftermarket pistons are already legal in HC. People are running forged aftermarket pistons in H4, why aren't they legal in H1? I agree, I believe that ALL bottom end parts should be of oem origin in H1-H5, and H2-H5 should as equipped from the factory. Quote
6ghatch Posted November 6, 2006 Posted November 6, 2006 Unfortunately, Aftermarket pistons are already legal in HC. People are running forged aftermarket pistons in H4, why aren't they legal in H1? I agree, I believe that ALL bottom end parts should be of oem origin in H1-H5, and H2-H5 should as equipped from the factory. Forged pistons are not legal. b) Engines may be bored to a maximum of .040 inch (1 mm) over standard bore size.c) Factory replacement pistons or the exact equivalent shall be used. Exact equivalent shall be defined as the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, weight, ring thickness and location, and pin location as the OEM replacement piston. Wrist pins and method of retention must also conform to OEM specifications. In the event that a .040 factory replacement piston/wrist pin is not available, the oversize pistons/wrist pins shall not weigh any less than the largest size OEM piston for that engine. d) Piston rings are unrestricted but must be of proper OEM ring thickness. Quote
National Staff Jeremy C. Posted November 6, 2006 National Staff Posted November 6, 2006 Unfortunately, Aftermarket pistons are already legal in HC. People are running forged aftermarket pistons in H4, why aren't they legal in H1? I agree, I believe that ALL bottom end parts should be of oem origin in H1-H5, and H2-H5 should as equipped from the factory. Forged pistons are not legal. b) Engines may be bored to a maximum of .040 inch (1 mm) over standard bore size.c) Factory replacement pistons or the exact equivalent shall be used. Exact equivalent shall be defined as the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, weight, ring thickness and location, and pin location as the OEM replacement piston. Wrist pins and method of retention must also conform to OEM specifications. In the event that a .040 factory replacement piston/wrist pin is not available, the oversize pistons/wrist pins shall not weigh any less than the largest size OEM piston for that engine. d) Piston rings are unrestricted but must be of proper OEM ring thickness. Read the rule very closly! Yes, the forged pistons are legal in H4 because therule you quoted pertains to H2-H5. If you have a set of forged pistons made to the same weight, and specs as the lightest OEM piston, you are still legal. Quote
mikeski38 Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 If an aftermarket forged piston has to be the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, weight, ring thickness and location, and pin location as the OEM replacement piston, why have them at all? Especially when to satisfy the rule, they have to be custom made, since there are no mass produced A/M forged pistons that meet that criteria. The way I read it they are not legal, but people run them and they are endorsed by HC officials, so I give that a big whatever. Quote
6ghatch Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 If an aftermarket forged piston has to be the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, weight, ring thickness and location, and pin location as the OEM replacement piston, why have them at all? Especially when to satisfy the rule, they have to be custom made, since there are no mass produced A/M forged pistons that meet that criteria. The way I read it they are not legal, but people run them and they are endorsed by HC officials, so I give that a big whatever. Yeah, who makes a forged piston that has the same weight, dome, dish, valve relief, wrist pin location, ect. as OEM? Quote
Paul Posted November 7, 2006 Author Posted November 7, 2006 Hi Guys, Just a reasonable question for H1/HU---rules changes? Mike brings up something though..... Paul Quote
Members Ryan F. Posted November 7, 2006 Members Posted November 7, 2006 Hold your horses fellas. I can state a few generalities right now for those of you that are interested. The H1 rules will remain very stable. There will be little change for that class and there is no intention to depart from the OEM short block rule. HU will go away due to almost non existent car count and those cars can play in Super Unlimited for Performance Touring. H2-H5 can indeed run forged pistons if custom made to exact OEM specifications, and as one of the guys pointed out, there is not much value on a 9.5:1 engine. Nonetheless it was a carry over (call it a debated item) from the original days of the rules discussion to allow the IT cars from the other org and it has remained to this day. Since most people realize a $600 set of forged pistons is no higher performance than a set of OEM it just stays and we let people choose what they would like to do. We plan to have a the outline of the 2007 rules released on Nov 30th and finalized by Dec 15th. I hope this helps. Quote
clock Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Hold your horses fellas. I can state a few generalities right now for those of you that are interested. The H1 rules will remain very stable. There will be little change for that class and there is no intention to depart from the OEM short block rule. HU will go away due to almost non existent car count and those cars can play in Super Unlimited for Performance Touring. H2-H5 can indeed run forged pistons if custom made to exact OEM specifications, and as one of the guys pointed out, there is not much value on a 9.5:1 engine. Nonetheless it was a carry over (call it a debated item) from the original days of the rules discussion to allow the IT cars from the other org and it has remained to this day. Since most people realize a $600 set of forged pistons is no higher performance than a set of OEM it just stays and we let people choose what they would like to do. IMO, this rule might need to head to the deprication bin for H2-5. For one, by allowing forged pistons for this single case, you make the inspection process incredibly difficult, because it is left up to the tech inspector whether to give the benefit of the doubt to someone he finds with forged pistons. Upon finding a forged piston, it needs to be removed to properly determine that it meets ALL the other requirements. Second, if the rule exists purely for crossover from the "other" club, then it should be out. When has H4 had trouble with field sizes? Why complicate the ruleset for this? Anyone who spends $600 bucks on forged pistons for IT should be able to buy a second motor for when they want to run HC. And sorry, it may not be a big failure point for a honda motor, but a stronger component is always an advantage. Can I run forged rods if they are the same weight and geometry? control arms if they are the same weight, shape, geometry? Forged subframe? Of course not. If you ask me, there are too many reasons why H2-5 should not have this loophole, and only one debatably weak reason to have it. Quote
Karl Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 When has H4 had trouble with field sizes? For the past three years, everywhere but california. I dont think a forged piston is going to beat me in a race, so I dont care if somebody wants to spend that much more on one item in the car. Quote
ekim952522000 Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Hold your horses fellas. I can state a few generalities right now for those of you that are interested. The H1 rules will remain very stable. There will be little change for that class and there is no intention to depart from the OEM short block rule. HU will go away due to almost non existent car count and those cars can play in Super Unlimited for Performance Touring. We plan to have a the outline of the 2007 rules released on Nov 30th and finalized by Dec 15th. I hope this helps. Thanks evrything sounds great! Quote
Andrie Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 When has H4 had trouble with field sizes? For the past three years, everywhere but california. I dont think a forged piston is going to beat me in a race, so I dont care if somebody wants to spend that much more on one item in the car. Karl, thank you, that is an eye opener. I never thought H4 has problems everywhere else but California. What is the strongest class in your region? And what region are you from? Quote
clock Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 For the past three years, everywhere but california. You would have to first come up with convincing evidence that this is a direct result of this specific piston rule for that to be a relevant argument. I dont think a forged piston is going to beat me in a race, so I dont care if somebody wants to spend that much more on one item in the car. I am glad you are confident in your ablilities, but these sort of truths are not how a good rules writer creates a just ruleset. The reason forged pistons don't make a big difference is because everything else is being enforced. But by allowing interpretation with one part, you set a precedent for rules creep in other areas, which can eventually lead to a breakdown of the intention of a class. (IT) Regardless of the immediate implications of an unjust rule or loophole, when it is discovered, the rules commitee needs to deal with it BEFORE it becomes a problem, not the first time someone is caught stretching the rule. Quote
Karl Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 If someone has a currently legal, aftermarket piston in their motor I dont think they should need to do a rebuild or pull the motor to stay legal. Andrie, this year in H4 I was the only one at three of the five SE weekends I attended. At the two MidA weekends I attended there were only three in H4. H1 is the usually the strongest in attendence at both SE and MA events. Quote
latapx Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 I'm from Miami, FL and the only folks running in H4 here are a group of my frineds and there are 3-5 on any given weekend...not huge numbers. Back to the rules change topic...any chances for the intake manifold rule to go away in H1? I'm currently building a single cammer for H1 and all of the OEM bottom end stuff makes sense to me, literally unrestricted head preparation makes sense, OEM throttle body makes sense because you can use an integra TB (like I have now) then you mess it all up with an OEM manifold... Quote
0x1 Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 Chris - Second, if the rule exists purely for crossover from the "other" club, then it should be out. When has H4 had trouble with field sizes? Why complicate the ruleset for this? I strongly disagree with this statement. Unfortunately, other regions do not enjoy the same H4 field sizes that the CA regions see. We're lucky to get 3-4 H4 cars out on any given weekend. Keeping any ITA Honda H4 legal can only help matters. You really need to think on a national scale. There's really no reason to alienate those cars when the forged pistons give no real advantage. Anyone who spends $600 bucks on forged pistons for IT should be able to buy a second motor for when they want to run HC. It's probably less a question of money and more a question of time and effort involved. I have a spare motor sitting in my garage right now, but if I had to put it in to run HC when there's nothing wrong with the motor in the car, guess how many HC events I'd run next year. And sorry, it may not be a big failure point for a honda motor, but a stronger component is always an advantage. I don't disagree with you, but in this case, the advantage is not performance; it's reliability. I've pulled cast (stock) pistons out of my B18A1 that cracked between the rings when my motor got too hot. They literally fell apart as I pulled them out of the cyls. I'd really rather not have that failure twice if I accidentally overheat again. I'd imagine forged pistons would also handle an accidental over-rev better than cast. It's a lot easier and cheaper to just replace some bent valves than also have to rebuild the whole bottom end. I guess my main feeling is that if it's not broken, then don't fix it. IT has had this rule for a long time and it has not caused rules creep in the other bottom end components. There's really no chance of this becoming a "must have" to stay competitive in the class. Anyone in H4/ITA who ever thought they lost a race because the guy in front of them had forged pistons was fooling themselves. - Scott Quote
BrianZ Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 There's really no reason to alienate those cars when the forged pistons give no real advantage.- Scott just to chime in... there are several advantages to forged pisons. Like they can handle higher heat better. i.e. more timing without damage Quote
mikeski38 Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 My biggest gripe with the forged pistons is that they are very difficult to inspect to be sure if they conform. If you have an oem piston, pop in a bore scope and read the code stamped into the top. But if it is forged, all you can see with a bore scope is that it is forged, and nothing else. the piston would have to be completely removed to determine if it is legal. I am not specualting on the legality of any of current forged piston engines already competing, but when the classes grow, how will we be able to enforce such a rule? H1 rules are correct, you can only run oem pistons and it is easy to enforce, H4 should be the same. Quote
National Staff Jeremy C. Posted November 10, 2006 National Staff Posted November 10, 2006 Mike, I understand your concerns. You gotta remember that we area also allowed to run "OEM spec" 40 over pistons. These don't always have a stamp on them, and thus, are just as difficult to insure as "legal" as the forged pistons are. In actuality, it's pretty easy to ensure they are legal "for the most part". If the cars comp ratio is within the limits that we know it should be, it's a pretty good bet that the piston is legal... I think we are splitting hairs here anyway. Quote
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