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Pat L.

ST rules Questions/Clarifications

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Pat L.

Greg,

 

I must not be understanding the adjustments or "modification factors" listed in the new rules. Are these adjustments to the wt/hp ratio of the competing cars? If so:

 

Why are you adjusting the 4-door sedan and 5-door wagon wt/power ratio PLUS .4? Is there an advantage to running a sedan over a coupe that I didn't know about? Same question regarding the adjustment of MINUS .2 for a straight cut or sequential transmission... are you trying to speed these cars up? And the tires???

 

Did somebody make a typo or am I getting it wrong?

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944-Spec#94

Any "Plus" factors will are designed to make you faster.

 

Any "minus" factor is designed to slow you down.

 

So if you can run a sedan or wagon car can run either a little lighter or with a little more hp than the same car with coupe body.

 

 

If you run sequental tranny you would need to carry more weight or less hp than with a standard synco H gearbox.

 

The second on Boost controllers seems a little confusing?

 

I understand the intent, but does it really mean that you can't use a manual or electronic boost controller?

 

I think the intent is that you can, but may not change it from the start of qualfying to the end of post race.

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MustGoFaster

Your reading it wrong. The + and - goes on your power to weight ratio.

 

Right from the book:

2005 Ford Mustang, with dog-ring gearbox, non-DOT 11â€

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Pat L.

I understand what the intent is. The actual written rule does not convey the intent. I've dealt with weight/power ratios in American Iron before and as far as I know a LOWER weight/power ratio means the car is FASTER... why are we lowering the actual weight/power ratio of cars running sequential transmissions and slicks?

 

I just IM'd with a NASA "official" and he didn't think the adjustments directly effected the weight/power ratio... but the rule says:

 

The “modification factorâ€

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Pat L.

Nevermind, just got it!

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Greg G.

Nice, Pat. Ryan warned me there would be guys like you

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Greg G.

 

The second on Boost controllers seems a little confusing?

 

I understand the intent, but does it really mean that you can't use a manual or electronic boost controller?

 

I think the intent is that you can, but may not change it from the start of qualfying to the end of post race.

 

Correct, Joe. There will be cars with Motecs, boost controllers, etc. But, the systems cannot be placed so that the driver can make any adjustments on the track (especially), and the systems are otherwise not to be adjusted between the start of qualifying until the end of the day after post-race inspections are completed. Basically, those systems should be sealed, like we did at the Championships. Technically, if those systems are ever adjusted in a way that would alter hp readings on a Dyno, repeat Dyno testing and certification is required.

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David M. Pintaric

Greg,

 

I think I understand this, but want some clarification:

 

in ST1, a 3,300 lbs car can have as much as 600 RWHP assuming no "adjustments" for slicks, transmissions, etc. Correct?

 

3,300 divided by 600 = 5.5

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Greg G.
Greg,

 

I think I understand this, but want some clarification:

 

in ST1, a 3,300 lbs car can have as much as 600 RWHP assuming no "adjustments" for slicks, transmissions, etc. Correct?

 

3,300 divided by 600 = 5.5

 

Correct.

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Pat L.
Nice, Pat. Ryan warned me there would be guys like you

 

I'm telling you man, it's tough to switch the brain over from work to car stuff sometimes... makes me wonder how I dress myself in the morning

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Greg G.
Greg,

 

I think I understand this, but want some clarification:

 

in ST1, a 3,300 lbs car can have as much as 600 RWHP assuming no "adjustments" for slicks, transmissions, etc. Correct?

 

3,300 divided by 600 = 5.5

 

Actually, if you wanted to push the limits of the rules, and stretch to the last possible hp (not a good idea since there is so much variability in Dyno testing from one day to the next):

 

The car weighed 3300 lbs (and not under 3300 lbs). So, actually, a car that weighs 3300 lbs to 3349.5 pounds, gets a slight break on the wt/hp ratio of 0.05. So, the wt/hp ratio that particular car is shooting for is 5.45:1. So, your example of a car that weighs exactly 3300 lbs, could have as much as 605 hp. 3300/605 = 5.45 + 0.05 = 5.5:1. A car weighing 3349.5 lbs can have as much as 615 hp.

 

But, using your example, if the car weighed 3299 lbs, it would max out at 600 hp. Of course, the smart thing to do is leave a little room for differences is track scales, gas milage, length of the race as usual to avoid becoming non-compliant. Same goes for the Dyno hp readings. Each competitor would be wise to leave a little bit on the table in case the Dyno they used for tuning is not reading exactly the same as the one used by Officials at the track.

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chucktoo

Hi

 

The tuner [ KTR] I use has a AWD dyno dynamics dyno.

 

It is not on the list of "approved" dyno's - any chance of geting it added ?

 

Thanks Charlie

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Pat L.

Charlie,

 

I hear the Dyno Dynamics dynos are pretty conservative (especially the one at KTR). I'd like the MAHA added as well, but then my problem, like yours, would be guesstimating what the car would make on say a Dynojet and trying to build in a hp buffer zone in case of a protest/impound.

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AU N EGL

What is the difference between SU/ST/PT and the CMC or AI?

 

Would not some of the CMC & AI cars fit into ST/PT??

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TexaST-1

It looks like I'll either need to speed more money to lighten my car and add slick to get closer to the 5.5 for ST1.

 

I am not big on swapping back to a bone stock engine.

 

An LS6 with long tube hedders makes +-400RWHP. Going slower is not as much fun!

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Greg G.
What is the difference between SU/ST/PT and the CMC or AI?

 

Would not some of the CMC & AI cars fit into ST/PT??

 

Sure, any car fits into ST/PT (except for those that I need to class as they present--like certain tube-frame cars).

 

We had some CMC cars racing in PTC at the Championships in September. We have AI cars that have run in TTA in the past, but they would more likely fit into ST2/TTS now.

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AU N EGL
What is the difference between SU/ST/PT and the CMC or AI?

 

Would not some of the CMC & AI cars fit into ST/PT??

 

Sure, any car fits into ST/PT (except for those that I need to class as they present--like certain tube-frame cars).

 

We had some CMC cars racing in PTC at the Championships in September. We have AI cars that have run in TTA in the past, but they would more likely fit into ST2/TTS now.

 

Greg it sounds like you are trying to get more cars into a single class, vs a one or two car in a single class and having multiple classes.

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Greg G.

Well, AI and CMC have no trouble filling their fields, and NASA will continue both of those great programs. However, I sure wouldn't mind getting some extra cars from those guys if they want to run in two classes simultaneously.

 

You are correct in that NASA wants decent size fields for all of its classes, because that is what our drivers want. I personally want to race against 15 guys, not 3-6. I think that is one of the things that has kept some guys from joining us. They see a small field listed in a results section, so they don't join with us, so the field stays small. If you just get the ball rolling on a class, it will have a snowball effect. But, you have to have some decent numbers initially to make it attractive. I think we are doing that with PT and ST.

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AU N EGL
Well, AI and CMC have no trouble filling their fields, and NASA will continue both of those great programs. However, I sure wouldn't mind getting some extra cars from those guys if they want to run in two classes simultaneously.

 

You are correct in that NASA wants decent size fields for all of its classes, because that is what our drivers want. I personally want to race against 15 guys, not 3-6. I think that is one of the things that has kept some guys from joining us. They see a small field listed in a results section, so they don't join with us, so the field stays small. If you just get the ball rolling on a class, it will have a snowball effect. But, you have to have some decent numbers initially to make it attractive. I think we are doing that with PT and ST.

 

Sounds good. Get the class numbers up then maybe in the future increase distances, to say, 45-50 min or approx one full tank of gas.

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chucktoo

Reading the ST rules there is an adjuster for FFR cobra aero mods.

 

The challlenge series spec cars run aluminum air dams. I am running an rubber air dam to keep it more survivable, the al one get damaged way to easilly - is this an aero mod with the -.5 lb/hp adjuster ? It is really needed to keep the car stable and safe over 100 mph or the front end gets really light. The car is really not safe without it at the ST1 power levels I will be running.

 

I would allow the air dam without an adjuster. Any other aero stuff should have an adjuster. In any case aero mod needs to be more clearly defined. Like a coupe is not the same as a roadster and would have a significant advantage if that is what the rule was ment to cover.

 

Since my car is supercharged I can dial in what ever boost and rev limit is needed to make ST1 - just need to know what the power target is .

 

There are a number of non spec legal FFR's out there that could run ST1/2 , you may want to invite them in. In NE where I am most spec like cars are not spec legal since people have made mods like carbs ,better brakes and full windshields so the car can be street driven.

 

Thanks

 

Charlie

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Greg G.

Charlie,

 

E-mail me some photos. The aero mods modifier for the FFR's is primarily for a wing and/or front splitter. In either case, I would highly recommend that any FFR owner at the ST1 level go for the wing and splitter. Not only will the car be faster with these mods than the extra power you could get with the extra 0.5 in the wt/hp ratio, it will be a safer car to drive as you mentioned. Some of the guys on the West coast that have been testing their FFR's with 500-600 hp motors have found that they have huge gains when they added the wing and front splitter.

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rlogan

So, lets make sure I got this right:

 

Worked my numbers for ST-1

 

Factory Five Cobra

 

2650 lbs (Guess, may be ever so slightly higher)

340 hp at wheels currently

 

7.79 BASELINE

 

- 0.6 weight 2650 or less

7.19

-0.5 Aero work

6.69

- 0.75 Non DOT Slicks

5.94 Final

 

If I don't go non DOT slicks, I need some HP!

 

As is, I can add another 20 hp as it stands.

 

w/o slicks I can go to 400hp at the rear wheels. It think I'll take slicks over HP with this car!

 

 

As for the aero Chuck is talking about, I think it's just the standard small air dam they use on the spec FFR, shouldn't have points counted for it...it's a factory part.

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chucktoo

Hi Greg

 

The air dam picture has been emailed.

 

My math comes out.

 

2700 lb my expected weight - 315 DOT tires- no aero -

 

5.5 + .55 = 6.05 lb/hp or 446 rwhp which is easy with supercharged 331 .

 

Just dial the boost and rev limit up and down to match the class limits.

 

with 275s get an extra .4 or 5.65 lb/hp or 478 rwhp still no problem.

 

It will be real interesting to see how the tradeoffs go.

 

I think the ST class is a really good idea and will be fun to run.

 

Charlie

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Shawn M.

 

I'm telling you man, it's tough to switch the brain over from work to car stuff sometimes... makes me wonder how I dress myself in the morning

 

 

 

I thought your mom helped make sure you didnt dress funny?

Not that its helping....... hey, least your dressed and thats all that matters!

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Pat L.

Shawn, I have girlfriends that help me with that... it's unfortunate they want to put clothes "on", but I'm sure they see similar flaws in our automotive habbit.

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