07' rule questions.... clarifications....

[StealthTT]

Greg:

 

I am coming to NASA from SCCA and looking at the shock rule it is using price for point classification.

 

I have double adjustable Koni's that are less than $600 a piece, so does that mean I only take the 3 point hit?

 

Also, wheel soze is free? Based on tire size if I am correct so, I take the tire size points, but wheels size is free.

 

Thanks, looking forward to running some time trials

 

Chris Kline

 

I'm not affiliated with NASA, but I have no doubt that you are correct.

 

SUSPENSION/BRAKES/CHASSIS:

1) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with an external reservoir or more than two ranges of adjustment +10 (example: compression (bump) and both high & low rebound adjustments)(must still take points for springs below). NO

2) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with a retail price of greater than $600 per unit ($750 if sold only as a coilover with spring included—must still take additional points for the springs below) +7 NO

3) Non-OEM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others)(springs not included) YES

 

NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS:

10) Wheels, wheel studs, wheel bearings replacement/upgrade YES

 

But don't forget to take points for the tire compound (i.e. Toyo RA1's, Kuhmo Victoracer, Hoosier R6, etc.)

[cosm3os]

One more question (I promise):

 

I have the cross brace on my 98m3 from the e36 convertibles. It installs underneath and ties the front subframe to the chassis. Where does this fall?

[zuperdave]

Did a clutch/flywheel become free or am I missing them?

 

Any idea how soon the 2007 Classification forms will be out, or am I missing them, too? Last time I checked, the 2006 version was still the one on the website.

 

Thx

[Shawn M.]

Camber plates are now free too?

 

Yes.

 

Greg, on my 98 M3 I have swapped the front strut hats. They are offset, so swapping them side to side gives additional camber. Of course, it's not adjustable. Since camber plates are free, I assume this "mod" is free.

 

Thanks

 

 

FAh-reee.

[Shawn M.]

Did a clutch/flywheel become free or am I missing them?

 

Any idea how soon the 2007 Classification forms will be out, or am I missing them, too? Last time I checked, the 2006 version was still the one on the website.

 

Thx

 

 

Is there an event this weekend we dont know about?

[cosm3os]

Flywheels are free!

[PtBy]

In order to get adjustable camber and caster in the Audi you need to replace the upper arms.

I'm using these Istook upper arms.

 

12) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension mounting points (unless the modification used is otherwise assessed points above)

Are these freeeeeee! this year, or do I need to take +4 for replacing control arms and possibly another +3 for metallic suspension bushings? These are the only bushings in the Audi quad-link suspension that are metallic. It would really bite if what is a free mod for most cars is a 7 point mod for another.

 

Last year, IIRC, the control arms added 4 points but no additional points for the bushings since they are included in the control arms.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Guest

[mrc24x]

Hi Greg,

I noticed that the rule for increased track width is worded differently this year. Is the measurement going to be from the inside of the wheels or the outside of the wheels(wheel to wheel) . Hopefully that makes sense.?

[Greg G.]

Camber plates are now free too?

 

Yes.

 

Greg, on my 98 M3 I have swapped the front strut hats. They are offset, so swapping them side to side gives additional camber. Of course, it's not adjustable. Since camber plates are free, I assume this "mod" is free.

 

Thanks

 

Correct.

[Greg G.]

Greg:

 

I am coming to NASA from SCCA and looking at the shock rule it is using price for point classification.

 

I have double adjustable Koni's that are less than $600 a piece, so does that mean I only take the 3 point hit?

 

Also, wheel soze is free? Based on tire size if I am correct so, I take the tire size points, but wheels size is free.

 

Thanks, looking forward to running some time trials

 

Chris Kline

 

I'm not affiliated with NASA, but I have no doubt that you are correct.

 

SUSPENSION/BRAKES/CHASSIS:

1) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with an external reservoir or more than two ranges of adjustment +10 (example: compression (bump) and both high & low rebound adjustments)(must still take points for springs below). NO

2) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with a retail price of greater than $600 per unit ($750 if sold only as a coilover with spring included—must still take additional points for the springs below) +7 NO

3) Non-OEM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others)(springs not included) YES

 

NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS:

10) Wheels, wheel studs, wheel bearings replacement/upgrade YES

 

But don't forget to take points for the tire compound (i.e. Toyo RA1's, Kuhmo Victoracer, Hoosier R6, etc.)

 

Correct.

[Greg G.]

One more question (I promise):

 

I have the cross brace on my 98m3 from the e36 convertibles. It installs underneath and ties the front subframe to the chassis. Where does this fall?

 

Sounds alot like this doesn't it?:

 

28) Add or modify other chassis stiffening devices or fabricated parts (such as subframe connectors) +3

Edited December 13, 2006 by Guest

[Greg G.]

In order to get adjustable camber and caster in the Audi you need to replace the upper arms.

I'm using these Istook upper arms.

 

12) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension mounting points (unless the modification used is otherwise assessed points above)

Are these freeeeeee! this year, or do I need to take +4 for replacing control arms and possibly another +3 for metallic suspension bushings? These are the only bushings in the Audi quad-link suspension that are metallic. It would really bite if what is a free mod for most cars is a 7 point mod for another.

 

Last year, IIRC, the control arms added 4 points but no additional points for the bushings since they are included in the control arms.

 

Nope, sorry Audi's. Actually, Pat took all 7 last year for the same mod.

 

7) Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment only) +4

 

But perhaps we could add a free spherical joint on aftermarket control arms for camber/caster adjustment? I'll check into it.

[Greg G.]

Hi Greg,

I noticed that the rule for increased track width is worded differently this year. Is the measurement going to be from the inside of the wheels or the outside of the wheels(wheel to wheel) . Hopefully that makes sense.?

 

It was changed because most readers didn't realize it was a track width mod and not a hub mod. I'll clarify the measurement points with our tech guys.

[cosm3os]

One more question (I promise):

 

I have the cross brace on my 98m3 from the e36 convertibles. It installs underneath and ties the front subframe to the chassis. Where does this fall?

 

Sounds alot like this doesn't it?:

 

28) Add or modify other chassis stiffening devices or fabricated parts (such as subframe connectors) +3

 

Yes, that's what I thought. Didn't want to make any assumptions, though, right?!

[daveh]

Yes, unfortunately, you are still adding the 4 points for changing the control arms. This was also discussed, and it was felt that there is too much of a "slippery slope" if actually changing the arms for free is allowed. The new wording will allow most cars to gain free camber by shimming or slotting the contol arm attachment points or some other method such as eccentric bushings.

Can you give an example of why this is 'slippery slope'? I'm probably missing something obvious in not seeing any benefits outside of the camber adjustment that control arms offer on a car with wishbone suspension. Mine even weighs more than the aluminum piece it replaces.

 

thanks,

Dave

[markfw]

Two questions:

 

1. Under the catagory ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN

 

#14 reads: " 14) Alteration of OEM ignition timing +2 naturally aspirated, +3 forced induction (do not take if points already taken for 11) or 12) above.) "

 

Should it read: ( do not take if points already taken for 12) or 13) above.)?

 

2. Do I take a point for my my rear strut bar ( incorperated into my cage)in the SUSPENSION/BRAKES/CHASSIS and in the ROLL BARS/CAGES?

 

Thanks,

Mark

[Greg G.]

Two questions:

 

1. Under the catagory ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN

 

#14 reads: " 14) Alteration of OEM ignition timing +2 naturally aspirated, +3 forced induction (do not take if points already taken for 11) or 12) above.) "

 

Should it read: ( do not take if points already taken for 12) or 13) above.)?

 

2. Do I take a point for my my rear strut bar ( incorperated into my cage)in the SUSPENSION/BRAKES/CHASSIS and in the ROLL BARS/CAGES?

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

Please download the Official TT Rules v 4.3. It does not have the listing you quote regarding timing. You only take the point for the rear strut tower bar once. If it is incorporated into the cage, take it in the cage points section.

[1LapAl]

Greg,

 

I asked these questions in my other thread but I feel it would be more appropriate to ask them here since they pertain to the rules:

 

1. Is it true that if I replace just the downpipe on my car (06 STI) with a downpipe that doesn't have a cat I only add 1 point for modification/removal of the cat? I would keep my factory catback exhaust that is on the car now.

 

2. I understand that by adding springs and a set of Ohlins fixed perch 25 way single adjustable struts would only add 5 points. The Ohlins are priced at $1999 so that should be right. If I went a different route and put on a version of the KW Variant 3 Coilovers would that also only add 5 points. They are also priced at $1999 for F/R but do have external resovoirs on the fronts and are rebound and compression adjustable. They are not montube dampers, they are twin tube. Somebody told me they only count for 5 points because of their price but they have many of the attributes of the higher dollar coilovers like Ohlins Flag Series or Moton's.

 

Here is a link to the specific coilover I am looking into: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?s=daaee9f353a0549481267e536acbb998&t=67274 They are basicall KW Variant 3's with custom rates and valving for the STI.

 

Thanks for answering all of the quesitons so far!

[Greg G.]

Greg,

 

I asked these questions in my other thread but I feel it would be more appropriate to ask them here since they pertain to the rules:

 

1. Is it true that if I replace just the downpipe on my car (06 STI) with a downpipe that doesn't have a cat I only add 1 point for modification/removal of the cat? I would keep my factory catback exhaust that is on the car now.

 

2. I understand that by adding springs and a set of Ohlins fixed perch 25 way single adjustable struts would only add 5 points. The Ohlins are priced at $1999 so that should be right. If I went a different route and put on a version of the KW Variant 3 Coilovers would that also only add 5 points. They are also priced at $1999 for F/R but do have external resovoirs on the fronts and are rebound and compression adjustable. They are not montube dampers, they are twin tube. Somebody told me they only count for 5 points because of their price but they have many of the attributes of the higher dollar coilovers like Ohlins Flag Series or Moton's.

 

Here is a link to the specific coilover I am looking into: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?s=daaee9f353a0549481267e536acbb998&t=67274 They are basicall KW Variant 3's with custom rates and valving for the STI.

 

Thanks for answering all of the quesitons so far!

You may delete the cat for 1 point. But, you need to replace it with a "test tube" of equal size tubing to the OEM tubing, or a prefabbed downpipe that is exactly the same as OEM except for the missing cat. The tubing diameter, flange opening, length, and bends must be the same as OEM. If not, then the only option is to also take the +2 for the complete exhaust system downstream from the turbo.

 

"Somebody" is wrong.

 

2) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with a retail price of greater than $600 per unit ($2400 total) or $750 each if sold only as a coilover with spring included ($3000 total). Also“Piggybackâ€

[1LapAl]

Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate the quick response!

[FLZ_Boy]

Greg,

 

I'm new to time trials and had a few questions regarding the following modifications:

 

#30: Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s) location(s) +1 (for "catback" or mufflers only) +1

 

I believe I use a catback exhaust; however, it is the typical cansiter type exhaust that has a straight pipe to the cat. Would I be assessed 2 points since this exhaust elimates the 2 stock resonators?

 

#28: Add or modify other chassis stiffening devices or fabricated parts (such as subframe connectors) +3

 

Do harness bars (not roll bar) fall under this rule (+3)?

 

Thanks for your time in advance![/b]

[Greg G.]

Greg,

 

I'm new to time trials and had a few questions regarding the following modifications:

 

#30: Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s) location(s) +1 (for "catback" or mufflers only) +1

 

I believe I use a catback exhaust; however, it is the typical cansiter type exhaust that has a straight pipe to the cat. Would I be assessed 2 points since this exhaust elimates the 2 stock resonators?

 

#28: Add or modify other chassis stiffening devices or fabricated parts (such as subframe connectors) +3

 

Do harness bars (not roll bar) fall under this rule (+3)?

 

Thanks for your time in advance![/b]

 

If everything from the catalytic converter upstream to the motor is stock, then you do have a "catback" exhaust that is +1 point. The resonators are just like less restrictive mufflers. If you have anything that is not stock upstream from the catalytic converter, it is +2 points.

 

The harness bar is a good question that I haven't seen brought up ever. My first thought is that you better make sure that you are planning a restraint system that is legal under the CCR. You need to have a 5,6,or 7 point restraint if you not using either the original seatbelt, or a DOT approved 4 point restraint installed per the manufacturers instructions. Then, once you get past that, make sure that you realize that the strength of that harness bar and its attachment points to the inner ? sheet metal on the B pillars may need to save your life some day. So, you better make sure that it was designed correctly. Then if you get past all that, then the single harness bar would not be a +3 assessment for chassis stiffening. A recommended "point-free" 4 point roll bar or 6 point cage would provide much more chassis stiffening.

[FLZ_Boy]

Greg,

 

I'm new to time trials and had a few questions regarding the following modifications:

 

#30: Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s) location(s) +1 (for "catback" or mufflers only) +1

 

I believe I use a catback exhaust; however, it is the typical cansiter type exhaust that has a straight pipe to the cat. Would I be assessed 2 points since this exhaust elimates the 2 stock resonators?

 

#28: Add or modify other chassis stiffening devices or fabricated parts (such as subframe connectors) +3

 

Do harness bars (not roll bar) fall under this rule (+3)?

 

Thanks for your time in advance![/b]

 

If everything from the catalytic converter upstream to the motor is stock, then you do have a "catback" exhaust that is +1 point. The resonators are just like less restrictive mufflers. If you have anything that is not stock upstream from the catalytic converter, it is +2 points.

 

The harness bar is a good question that I haven't seen brought up ever. My first thought is that you better make sure that you are planning a restraint system that is legal under the CCR. You need to have a 5,6,or 7 point restraint if you not using either the original seatbelt, or a DOT approved 4 point restraint installed per the manufacturers instructions. Then, once you get past that, make sure that you realize that the strength of that harness bar and its attachment points to the inner ? sheet metal on the B pillars may need to save your life some day. So, you better make sure that it was designed correctly. Then if you get past all that, then the single harness bar would not be a +3 assessment for chassis stiffening. A recommended "point-free" 4 point roll bar or 6 point cage would provide much more chassis stiffening.

 

My intended purpose for the SPARCO harness bar is to mount an inboard video camera. Would I be assessed for chassis stiffening if I used this harness bar just to help mount the camera (not for 4,5,6,7 point restraints).

 

Thanks for your responses.

[Greg G.]

My intended purpose for the SPARCO harness bar is to mount an inboard video camera. Would I be assessed for chassis stiffening if I used this harness bar just to help mount the camera (not for 4,5,6,7 point restraints).

 

Thanks for your responses.

 

Trying to make this difficult, huh?

 

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I can see it now--every TT car that doesn't have a cage or rollbar having a harness bar used for mounting a camera, hanging a helmet in the paddock, hanging a suit after going to the drycleaners, used as a curtain rod, etc.--but not for stiffening I think it's a good way to safely mount a camera, so it might end up free (maybe with the caveat that it must be used for either anchoring or guiding a harness, or as a camera mount). I don't think I'm going to buy the curtain rod reason. I'll post when I have the answer--might be a couple of days.

[roadracetransam]

My intended purpose for the SPARCO harness bar is to mount an inboard video camera. Would I be assessed for chassis stiffening if I used this harness bar just to help mount the camera (not for 4,5,6,7 point restraints).

 

Thanks for your responses.

 

Trying to make this difficult, huh?

 

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I can see it now--every TT car that doesn't have a cage or rollbar having a harness bar used for mounting a camera, hanging a helmet in the paddock, hanging a suit after going to the drycleaners, used as a curtain rod, etc.--but not for stiffening I think it's a good way to safely mount a camera, so it might end up free (maybe with the caveat that it must be used for either anchoring or guiding a harness, or as a camera mount). I don't think I'm going to buy the curtain rod reason. I'll post when I have the answer--might be a couple of days.

 

My race seat is extreemly confortable. So much so that I enjoy having dental work done while I am sitting in it. I talked to my dentist and he does not mind coming out to my house to do a root canal. I was hopeing on installing NO2 to my car for anastethic porposes only. Can I do that without getting points assessed?