Standing Starts

[bmw22]

The CCR says:

"20.5.2 Standing Start

Grid will take place on track after the cars have left the hot pit lane. The competitors will complete the warm-up lap(s) with or without the Pace Car. Upon completion of the warm-up lap(s), the competitors will grid themselves according to the list posted showing the starting order [Ref:(20.2)]. It is the competitor’s responsibility to know his/her starting grid position. All drivers will position themselves on the track, for the standing start, and will leave at least one (1) car length space between themselves and the car in from them. The nonpole side as determined by the column to the outside of the first turn, must not move closer to the starting line than the car in the row on the “pole side,â€

[Trackrocket]

I agree with everything you've said Mark. Procedures should be the SAME throughout all regions. The standing start procedure at Road Atlanta differed quite a bit from how NASA MA does it with the orange flag, don't care which one is used, just needs to be standardized.

 

As for what classes a standing start should and shouldn't be used in, that's up to the various race groups in my opinion.

 

I don't think GTS competitors like standing starts due to the common transaxle/CV joint arrangement in most of our vehicles, it's hard on those components and many times a German car doesn't make it off the "line".

 

I'm not whining about my particular platform, really, just a bit miffed that we were to do a standing start at Road Atlanta this past Sunday...and some CV axles broke during that start, no names mentioned...but they weren't mine as I was finished in morning practice with related issues.

 

The fact that SE region did not offer GTS a split start is a bit irritating to me because GTS rules/guidelines offer this provision, instead we got a LAME excuse that there was only one pacecar available! I'm not trying to start anything here, just merely stating a fact. I love NASA and the SE region as well, I will continue to do their events but this issue needs to be resolved.

 

I dunno if this is the purpose of your post (my reply and it's relevancy or lack thereof) but seems odd that it came right after the event at RA where MANY questioned the procedure and the fact that we (GTS cars) had to participate in the standing start or start from the pits (always an option).

 

Hey, if I wanted a car that could dragrace to T1, I would've bought some American Iron baby! That comment was not meant to berate American cars, but to enforce the feelings of many racers who race a European platform that we cannot continue to do standing starts, it's way too hard on our drivetrain.

[Grumpy]

The starting procedure seems well explained in 20.8 and 20.9. NASA MA no longer uses the orange flag, but rather is in compliance with the CCR.

 

20.8 Flagman Timed Start (split or not)

The Starter will raise a furled green flag over his / her head and open it slowly. After

displaying an open green flag for approximately five (5) seconds, the Starter will drop the

green flag. The group of cars will leave the starting line. In the case of a second group

of cars (split), the flagman will repeat the process; and again for every subsequent

group.

Once the green flag has been raised, and there is a need to abort the start, the Starter

will keep the flag in the air, and slowly furl it closed, then lower it in a slow motion with

the handle held vertically. This procedure should be done with care, as not to falsely

alert the driver to a start.

 

20.9 Light System Timed Start (split or not)

When applicable, there should be a three (3) yellow colored light system used. The

starter will light all three lights to indicate that the drivers should prepare for the start.

The starter will then turn off the lights one by one. The signal to start will be all lights off.

Should the light system fail the Race Director will order the start aborted. If the start is

aborted, the Starter (or other official) will wave a yellow flag at the field. Upon receiving

the yellow flag, the driver should prepare for a “Flagman Timed Start.â€

[bmw22]

Jeff, No, not the purpose of the thread, however it is the reason for the thread. BTW, I can't wait to race against you this season!

 

Jim,

Thanks. I wasn't sure what applied to rolling starts and what applies to standing starts. What are your thoughts on the 2nd half of my original post?

[Grumpy]

The term "car length" is used commonly. An example would be from the DMV manual of your state. We just want the cars spaced and not up each other's ass. Its just seems to be generally understood when I expalin it to driver's in a school or driver's meeting situation.

[Grumpy]

When to use it because of conditions is the Race Director's decision. We depend on the Race Direrctor's skill and experience for a number of things, including when to use a standing start. If you believe a Race Director to be reckless, bring it to the Region Director's attantion.

[Grumpy]

Marking a track is difficult at best.

 

How long for the paint to dry before its OK to race.

 

What happens if track usage obliterates the lines. It would have to be permanent, and tracks would have to be consulted for permanent marks. What happens if one race sanction wants side to side marks and one sanction wants staggered marks?

[bmw22]

What happens if somebody dies or gets hurt? Isn't that the more important question? Shouldn't that be a sanctioning body's #1 concern?

[Grumpy]

What happens if somebody dies or gets hurt? Isn't that the more important question. Shouldn't that be a sanctioning bodies #1 concern?

 

Racing is inherently dangerous. Some say the standing start is safer if you include turn 1 that rolling including turn 1.

 

All I can say is that NASA MA after the first year we performed them have been basically incident free.

 

I have also seen some rolling starts (not NASA) where there was contact before the start line, taking out half the field.

[bmw22]

Marking a track is difficult at best.

 

How long for the paint to dry before its OK to race.

Do it the evening before.

 

What happens if track usage obliterates the lines.

Have a rolling start

It would have to be permanent, and tracks would have to be consulted for permanent marks. What happens if one race sanction wants side to side marks and one sanction wants staggered marks?

Mark it for side by side and the staggered start would use every other spot.

[speedracer33]

What happens if somebody dies or gets hurt? Isn't that the more important question? Shouldn't that be a sanctioning body's #1 concern?

 

As the person involved in what was very likely the most serious incident in the history of NASA standing starts, I'll chime in here.

 

All in all, NASA standing starts are very safe, with relatively few incidents as compared to other types of starts. Given the choice, I'll always take a standing start over rolling - it's a lot more fun and the speeds coming into turn 1 are lower. HOWEVER, I am really shocked and disheartened that the safety measures that NASA MA implemented after my big wreck were never made national.

 

My wreck was the result of a stalled car at the front of the grid, and the cars at the back having absolutely no warning of trouble ahead until it was too late. As a result, NASA MA always has "Bookler Flaggers" at the side of the track, spaced out along the length of the grid, with yellow flags in their hands. If a car stalls/breaks/spins tires and doesn't move/etc, the Bookler Flaggers wave their yellow flags to let everybody know. Even in the intensity of a standing start, you absolutely can see those flags waving in the periphery.

 

Knowing that this specific danger exists, and that at least one chapter does implement this procedure for safety, NASA National is being extremely neglegent in not making it an "official" procedure. I can promise you without hesitation that if somebody gets killed on a standing start, that did not use Bookler Flaggers, NASA will be sued, and NASA will lose.

 

Thumbs up to NASA MA for recognizing a danger, and doing the right thing about it.

 

[end of rant]

[speedracer33]

All I can say is that NASA MA after the first year we performed them have been basically incident free.

 

LOL! Well worded Grumpy.

[Trackrocket]

If you believe a Race Director to be reckless, bring it to the Region Director's attantion.

 

Jim, I think you're reckless...so is your Race Director.

 

Yeah, sorry Mark for turning this thread into what can be perceived as a "bitch session" - not my intention either.

 

FWIW, I have to admit, I was not aware of the start procedure involving the orange flag was NO MORE, the last standing start I did was at VIR last August and we used an orange flag. SO the clarification Jim provided was helpful. Of course, I read the CCRs this year, the changes at least and didn't notice that.

[bmw22]

Racing is inherently dangerous. Some say the standing start is safer if you include turn 1 that rolling including turn 1.

 

All I can say is that NASA MA after the first year we performed them have been basically incident free.

 

I have also seen some rolling starts (not NASA) where there was contact before the start line, taking out half the field.

 

Sure, a standing start could be safer than a rolling start, but not possible with 50+ cars with weight ranging from 1900 to 3600 pounds, HP ranging from 100 to 600, FWD, RWD, AWD, mid engine, DOTs, slicks, etc....

 

Yes racing is dangerous, but why increase the danger?

[Trackrocket]

AMEN Bruddah Mark!

[DriverGT5]

What happens if somebody dies or gets hurt? Isn't that the more important question? Shouldn't that be a sanctioning body's #1 concern?

 

Ok, seriously dude, you're starting to sound like a whinning 3 year old. Isn't it amazing that nearly all the GTS guys decided to do the start, yet suddenly it's this horrible thing that is going to get everyone killed.... Make up your mind.

 

What's next, the ACLU as a sanctioning body....

[Grumpy]

Marking a track is difficult at best.

 

How long for the paint to dry before its OK to race.

Do it the evening before.

 

What happens if track usage obliterates the lines.

Have a rolling start

It would have to be permanent, and tracks would have to be consulted for permanent marks. What happens if one race sanction wants side to side marks and one sanction wants staggered marks?

Mark it for side by side and the staggered start would use every other spot.

 

You obviously do not like standing starts. Some do not like rolling starts. Can't please everyone. Contact your Regional Director to express your opinion.

[Trackrocket]

Ok, seriously dude, you're starting to sound like a whinning 3 year old. Isn't it amazing that nearly all the GTS guys decided to do the start, yet suddenly it's this horrible thing that is going to get everyone killed.... Make up your mind.

 

What's next, the ACLU as a sanctioning body....

 

WOW, what a perfect way to take a serious/jovial discussion and turn it into a flame war. I don't think anyone is whining here, just posting their feelings about a standing start and discussing relative safety concerns.

 

The fact that most GTS guys participated in the standing start is beside the point, we all want to race, and we're not "deathly" afraid of doing a standing start either. My main concern with a standing start is the livelihood of my racecar, and if I am required to launch to car to get a good start and stay out of the way of a 400hp Camaro/Mustang, my main concern shifts to safety, with a CLOSE 2nd concern of the cosmetic/mechanical and structural aspects of my investment.

 

My "track toy" is something I enjoy, I choose to race and the GTS Challenge Series is a GREAT idea. I don't think at any point that competitors in the series are really interested in a standing start.

 

Let's not turn this into a "flame war" with childish jabs and suggesting people sound like a "whining 3 year old" - not productive whatsoever.

 

By the way, hope you had a fun race on Sunday, I had a good time sparring with your 5.0 RX-7 on Saturday, I broke just after lunch on Sunday and went home after watching the Lightening race.

[bmw22]

What happens if somebody dies or gets hurt? Isn't that the more important question? Shouldn't that be a sanctioning body's #1 concern?

 

Ok, seriously dude, you're starting to sound like a whinning 3 year old. Isn't it amazing that nearly all the GTS guys decided to do the start, yet suddenly it's this horrible thing that is going to get everyone killed.... Make up your mind.

 

What's next, the ACLU as a sanctioning body....

 

First of all, This isn't about this past weekend at RA. Second, please, don't tell me about GTS, I believe I'm a better authority on what GTS drivers want than you are. And lastly, my mind was made up last year, when it was decided that GTS does NOT do standing starts.

[bmw22]

You obviously do not like standing starts. Some do not like rolling starts. Can't please everyone. Contact your Regional Director to express your opinion.

 

No, I just think they have their place. As I said above, 50+ cars of various capabilities is not the place for it.

 

Please start from the beginning of this thread and read my posts. I didn't say anything about banning standing starts, I simply suggested that NASA creates a set of guidlines to make them more safe.

[Grumpy]

I didn't say anything about banning standing starts, I simply suggested that NASA creates a set of guidlines to make them more safe.

 

Nor did I say standing starts for everyone. There is no way to write a set of rules or guidelines to cover every situation. The Race Director has a job. Let him do it.

 

However, please post the set of guidelines that you seem to think can cover all contingencies.

[DriverGT5]

Jeff, No, not the purpose of the thread, however it is the reason for the thread.

 

First of all, This isn't about this past weekend at RA.

 

Semantics....

 

As for what is really under discussion here, why don't you re-write the rules in a manner that you feel is safer and submit your suggestions to NASA. How do you limit a start? Is 50 cars too many? Does it depend on the track? What if it's narrow, or wet, or foggy, or hot, or cold, or there's one Lotus 7, or one ASC? What if there are 60 racers for it and 7 against? What if the sun's in your eyes, or the flaggers are too close or too far, what if Hillary becomes President? Oh wait... that last one probably doesn't matter as much as the others.....

 

Or maybe, just maybe, the rules are set up knowing that there are to many variables, and that the Race Director is a competent human that is capable, and experienced enough to make a call if something is too dangerous or not. And, maybe, just maybe, you have a regional GTS director that exists for the sole purpose as an intermediary to bring your concerns up as a group. Maybe, just maybe, if the race director made a bad call that screwed over, or put yourself and fellow GTS drivers in danger, you could go to your regional director and organize some kind of group sit down, or split start, or boycott, or mass objection of some kind. Maybe....

 

Jeff,

 

I TOTALLY understand where you guys are coming from. I have said before, if I had a 911, I'd be completly against starts also. Michael Moore and I talked at length about this situation before the race. He chose to start at the back rather than risk hurting his car before is big PCA race. What I think seems to be lost on a lot of racers is this is a "Standing Start", not a "Drag Race". No one said you had to dump the clutch at 3000rpms on Sunday. How do you start the car leaving pits? You slip the clutch and take off gently. So you lose a possition off the bat, you'll get it back when that fat AI car burns off its tires and brakes. I'm running Miata axles in The Abomination with nearly 300ft/lbs. If anyone was worried about damage to the drivetrain, it was me. I slipped the clutch, and had no problems. BTW I did have a great time on Saturday with you. I had a bunch of problems with my mirror deciding the fuel cell was more important to look at than the rear window, but I got that fixed Sunday, where ironically engouh I battled that E30 most of the first 1/2 of the race.

[kbrew8991]

What happens if somebody dies or gets hurt? Isn't that the more important question? Shouldn't that be a sanctioning body's #1 concern?

 

As the person involved in what was very likely the most serious incident in the history of NASA standing starts, I'll chime in here.

 

All in all, NASA standing starts are very safe, with relatively few incidents as compared to other types of starts. Given the choice, I'll always take a standing start over rolling - it's a lot more fun and the speeds coming into turn 1 are lower. HOWEVER, I am really shocked and disheartened that the safety measures that NASA MA implemented after my big wreck were never made national.

 

My wreck was the result of a stalled car at the front of the grid, and the cars at the back having absolutely no warning of trouble ahead until it was too late. As a result, NASA MA always has "Bookler Flaggers" at the side of the track, spaced out along the length of the grid, with yellow flags in their hands. If a car stalls/breaks/spins tires and doesn't move/etc, the Bookler Flaggers wave their yellow flags to let everybody know. Even in the intensity of a standing start, you absolutely can see those flags waving in the periphery.

 

Knowing that this specific danger exists, and that at least one chapter does implement this procedure for safety, NASA National is being extremely neglegent in not making it an "official" procedure. I can promise you without hesitation that if somebody gets killed on a standing start, that did not use Bookler Flaggers, NASA will be sued, and NASA will lose.

 

Thumbs up to NASA MA for recognizing a danger, and doing the right thing about it.

 

[end of rant]

 

for the record, Southeast has used Bookler Flaggers in thier standing starts, including this past one at Road Atlanta, and I'm confident they will continue to use them on future standing starts. Its just good common sense to have a system in place to warn drivers further down the grid of problems. Other than the two AI cars tapping each other due to one spinning in the grass in front of the other, even this mess of a start seemed clean from T&S and the Control Tower.

 

If you think standing starts are unsafe there are several alternative options you may excersize and I know the Race Directors, Racers, etc will encourage you to use those alternatives if thats how you feel about this type of start....