Licensing Issue - INEX

[speedracer33]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I feel strongly enough about this that I think it needs to be discussed again.

 

I have a major issue with NASA accepting INEX licenses, and allowing those people to race in the same sessions as everybody else. From what I have been told, to get an INEX license, all you need is a checkbook. No skills, no time on the track, no racing knowledge.... just a check. The lack of experience of some of these people was brought into sharp relief this past weekend at VIR when during the racers meeting one raised their hand and asked what a yellow flag means. I don't want to be racing on the same track as a person who doesn't know what a yellow flag means. Not to mention the fact that if he doesn't understand a yellow I have serious doubts that he would know what to do with a red. That is just not safe. Not safe for other racers, for EV, or for anybody. Neither are the speed differentials when we had a legends car lapping 29 seconds off of the pace of the leaders, and practically parking it at every corner causing dangerous traffic jams.

 

I am not saying to get rid of the Legends cars, and this is not a criticism of all Legends drivers. One in particular was lapping within a second of the leaders, and was very good. I am saying that somebody with an INEX license should have to go through a NASA comp school before they are allowed to race wheel to wheel with everybody else. If they cannot pass the comp school, then they are not ready to share the track with us. The current situation is not safe, and not defensible should somebody get injured due to an INEX licensed racer.

 

Matt

[Gfaules]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I feel strongly enough about this that I think it needs to be discussed again.

 

I have a major issue with NASA accepting INEX licenses, and allowing those people to race in the same sessions as everybody else. From what I have been told, to get an INEX license, all you need is a checkbook. No skills, no time on the track, no racing knowledge.... just a check. The lack of experience of some of these people was brought into sharp relief this past weekend at VIR when during the racers meeting one raised their hand and asked what a yellow flag means. I don't want to be racing on the same track as a person who doesn't know what a yellow flag means. Not to mention the fact that if he doesn't understand a yellow I have serious doubts that he would know what to do with a red. That is just not safe. Not safe for other racers, for EV, or for anybody. Neither are the speed differentials when we had a legends car lapping 29 seconds off of the pace of the leaders, and practically parking it at every corner causing dangerous traffic jams.

 

I am not saying to get rid of the Legends cars, and this is not a criticism of all Legends drivers. One in particular was lapping within a second of the leaders, and was very good. I am saying that somebody with an INEX license should have to go through a NASA comp school before they are allowed to race wheel to wheel with everybody else. If they cannot pass the comp school, then they are not ready to share the track with us. The current situation is not safe, and not defensible should somebody get injured due to an INEX licensed racer.

 

Matt

 

I wasn't there to see this but regardless of who is on the track, I believe it should be up to race directors to take action on a situation like this one. Did anyone take action by saying something to NASA officials on that day? I can't speak for other areas but I can tell you if anyone ever asked what yellow flag were for at any Nor Cal event there would be action taken post haste.

 

I also believe situations like this are just as much the responsibility of other drivers as it is NASA and officials. If you don't make a case to the correct officials you are as much to blame. Then if nothing happens you need to contact the national director.

[speedracer33]

I wasn't there to see this but regardless of who is on the track, I believe it should be up to race directors to take action on a situation like this one. Did anyone take action by saying something to NASA officials on that day?

 

I'm not looking to point fingers at anybody for what took place at VIR, just to fix an unsafe situation. As it was, EVERY NASA official was there - it was asked at the "All Hands" meeting. Regardless, you would have the same danger if the person didn't ask the question and just went out on track.

 

The fact remains that NASA excepts a competition license that requires no skill or knowledge to obtain, and puts those people out on the track with the rest of us, in a racing environment. This is a NASA rule, which is why I posted this here, and not in the Mid Atlantic forum. It is dangerous, and really quite absurd. With all the talk of developing drivers through DEs and advancing up to taking the comp school, it is nothing but lip service if the INEX guys just walk up and immediately go wheel to wheel.

 

Again, this is not Legends bashing... some of those guys are very good. However, letting anybody out without earning a license is just unacceptable. Would you want to be the one doing a hot pull during a race with drivers out there who don't know what a yellow flag means? Would you want to be lapping them in a high speed sweeper or a braking zone if this is their first day on a racetrack?

 

I believe in the NASA system of developing a driver until he is ready to race. I guess the question is, why doesn't NASA believe it?

[Legends21]

As a former NASA Legends driver, I would not have a problem with all INEX licensed drivers going through a driver education program. I went through a self imposed process of lead/follow instruction with a senior instructor at CMP over several months progressing up to being signed off for Solo before signing up for a NASA event. I saw another competitor go through the HPDE series to become a Legends racer. Finally, the guys that formally ran in the Mid-Atlantic Legends series were very experienced road racers. Unfortunately, most of them have left Legends for other road race series today.

[Jeff D]

Also a former Legends driver. I've never cared for the INEX license method, which is exactly what Matt indicated, and have commented on it in here before. I also went to a few of the Legends/INEX events at local oval tracks and saw what kind of racing this breeds.

 

I chose to work my way through the HPDE ranks and get my Comp License with NASA and had no dealing with INEX, well other than buying one of their cars. I'd recommend anyone racing a Legend to at least attend the Comp.School before racing with NASA.

[Gfaules]

I don't get the impression anyone who has posted with regards to this thread is doing any bashing. As a matter of fact, I feel it's as good thread that is making very good observations. Regarding the Legends, personally I can only speak with respect to Nor Cal events where I have seen first hand some of the issues we are discussing. In the beginning when the Legends first began running with other groups there were incidents that confirmed exactly such problems. However, in a short period of time with the watchful eye of the local team leader and good feedback in an open forum at driver's meetings the majority of those "problem & problem drivers" were dealt with. I saw it as a growing period for both NASA and the Legengs group. In retrospect, I can remember back a few years when almost the same complaints regarding inexperiened drivers, back markers, slow lap times, etc and it had nothing to do with the Legends gang... It was called Pro Sedan Series. On the track all at the same time were Honda Challange cars, PS1, PS2, PS3, Pro truck, GTI, Super Unlimited and more. And everyone of them has a NASA liscense. On the other hand you can bet your ass none of them had better ever ask what a yellow flag means.

 

I really appreciate the post made here by those who are in fact Legends drivers who seem to agree that they would or have already began to earn a NASA license and I personally agree that should be the status quo. The bottom line is, if there are some Legends issues or any other group for that matter, someone had better be keeping score so to speak and make it very clear to the local officials as well as the groups leaders what those exact problems are and do it in a way that everyone can benefit from. It worked here in Nor Cal.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Guest

[Renntag]

I am not familiar with INEX, nor the legends community. I do know that NASA has put in place an excellent program to develop drivers from HPDE 1 to comp school.

 

case in point: It is a shame that SCCA will not at this point accept NASA licenses as NASA does for SCCA. I really think that NASA's development process is one of the best.

 

It's hard enough to decide if you are going to go door to door in a turn with someone you havnt raced with before, its even harder knowing they might have not really earned the right to be doing so, as the rest of us have.

[Tiger Racing]

during the racers meeting one raised their hand and asked what a yellow flag means.

Heh. Reminds me of a few World Challenge drivers' meetings I've attended.

 

C.

[MMahieu]

I am a former Legends racer now racing a Prochallenge truck and yes I agree that there should be some type of formal training before ANYONE is allowed to compete. The Legends group used to be large enough to have their own race but most drivers have moved on to bigger and better things. I was at VIR that weekend, I wasn't on track with him but I did watch and yes I could see the concern of his skills or lack there of in the hogpen area. Not trying to make excuses for the kid but even if he would have done a HPDE class or 2, he could not have done it in a Legends car( No place for an instructor to sit). The legends cars drive ALOT different than anything else on track! You are constantly up on the wheel. It takes lots of track time to be able to handle the car properly.

I think the question was misunderstood at the drivers meeting. I think this was his first weekend on a road course. I think he has raced oval prior to this, and the yellow flag is different on oval than road. We have local yellows they have full course yellows and I think that is what he ment was is the yellow at any given station a "full Course yellow". I have never agreed with INEX on their licensing proceedures and I think NASA as a whole is begining to address it. This year I notice that a Legends drive must have either an INEX license or a comp license to compete, Prior to this you could not race if you didn't have a Inex license. The Legends were not part of NASA when I raced them, they were a GUEST. Therefore Inex insured them Not NASA.

In the past any safety issues on or off track NASA has acted swiftly and firmly as with this one I think that NASA will do the same.

 

Mike

[speedracer33]

Not trying to make excuses for the kid but even if he would have done a HPDE class or 2, he could not have done it in a Legends car( No place for an instructor to sit).

 

True, but he could have done HPDE in a different car. If that wasn't an option, he could at least auto-x the Legends car, and then do a comp school (which does not have incar instruction).

 

I think the question was misunderstood at the drivers meeting. I think this was his first weekend on a road course. I think he has raced oval prior to this

 

I still don't think that makes the situation any better. His first time ever on a road course should not be a wheel to wheel race, with 54 other cars, all going 10/10ths expecting him to know what to do. It is very, very, dangerous.

 

I have never agreed with INEX on their licensing proceedures and I think NASA as a whole is begining to address it. This year I notice that a Legends drive must have either an INEX license or a comp license to compete, Prior to this you could not race if you didn't have a Inex license.

 

You lost me here on how this is an improvement. So previously you had to pay the $30 to INEX to race, now you don't. How does that make a Legends driver with no prior experience any safer?

 

In the past any safety issues on or off track NASA has acted swiftly and firmly as with this one I think that NASA will do the same.

 

Yet the obvious fix hasn't been made, despite the fact that every Legends driver who has posted here agrees with it (and your posts are very much appreciated). Legends racers need to be licensed, like every other racer, before they share the track for a wheel to wheel race. That really isn't asking for a whole lot... Just treat them like everybody else.

 

If any of the NASA higher ups are reading this, please post so we at least know that somebody with the authority to do something is aware of the issue. Thanks.

[nasajerry]

Hello Everyone,

 

We went through these very issues when we agreed to host the Legends Road Racing program back in 2000. I understand that anyone can just buy an INEX license. That doesn’t mean they get to come and road race with no experience. We take prior experience, such as oval track racing, into account and evaluate the driver on a case by case basis. Some drivers need to go through some amount of schooling and others are good to go.

 

For the record, each NASA Legends race that is listed for points on the INEX calendar is an INEX sanctioned event and held under their rules and the drivers are covered by both NASA insurance and INEX’s insurance. We reserve the right to deny entry to any driver that is unfit and can’t meet our driving standards. Other than that, we follow the INEX rules per the agreement.

 

While nothing is perfect, so far the program has worked fairly well. There will always be “cracksâ€

[speedracer33]

Thanks for replying Jerry. I understand what you are saying, but why even have that subjective element in the decision making process? Every other racer that puts a wheel on the track has passed some kind of licensing test. What makes the Legends drivers so special that they don't need it? I would go so far as to say that it would be easier on all of you to just hold them to same standard as everybody else, rather than to persist with the current situation. At least that way you have a leg to stand on should it become a problem.

 

You can call this one a slip through the cracks, but I really think it is more than that. I am willing to bet that if you asked the other 54 racers in his run group whether or not he should have been out there, you would get at least 53 saying "no way." Therefore the current system failed in this case, and I don't blame Chris Cobetto for it. The National rules allow for INEX licenses, and he followed the rules. It is a mistake to rely on somebody in authority to break the very rules that the national organization itself has set. I'm fine with judgement calls to some extent, but if you must go down that path at least reverse it... They have to take the comp school UNLESS the Regional Director feels that their past experience would exempt them from it.

 

Not to mention the fact that every single former Legends racer who has posted here agrees that they need some kind of training, which really should tell you something.

 

In my opinion, from a legal perspective, to not do so is putting the organization at risk. How could you justify in court (say in a wrongful death suit) that despite all of NASA's promotion of the concept of developing drivers until they are ready to race, you knowingly allowed a completely inexperienced racer on the track in a competition environment? At that point you are forced into a corner having to admit that either A) The entire NASA development system is bullshit and you don't need experience to race; or B) an inexperienced Legends driver has no business racing wheel to wheel until he has proved his skill. When all is said and done, the "its the other racers responsibility to say something" argument will not hold up. You wrote the rule book, you run the organization, you have accountability. Blaming the other racers is avoiding the real issue.

 

Sadly, over the years I have fought vehemently on other message boards with people who race with other organizations (one in particular), on how and why the NASA licensing system is vastly superior because you can't learn car control and improvised driving lines in a single weekend. Being a good racer requires a great deal of track time to learn the basic skills before trying to throw them all together, and with the pressure of competition on top of it. This clause though, and the situation it created, has made me look like a complete hypocrite for defending the NASA system, because you are letting these people out with NOTHING in terms of training, and in turn making everybody who believes in what you teach look like an idiot.

 

Please Jerry, don't wait until somebody gets hurt before you do something about this. It's just too easy to fix to not do anything, and from what I can see, you *will* have the support of your customers if you do. If it prevents just one wreck, it will be worth it.

 

Thanks.

 

Matt

[rstoff]

Maybe, he was just trying to play mind games with everyone

[speedracer33]

Maybe, he was just trying to play mind games with everyone

 

Ah, the old "lay low until I'm two laps down in a ten lap race..... THEN spring my trap!" Sneaky bastard! LOL!

[speedracer33]

I was informed that this issue is being taken care of, and the Legends drivers will have to get a NASA comp license just like everybody else on the track!!!

 

Thank you very much to those who contributed to this thread, and a HUGE thank you to those who were responsible for taking action on this and listening to us. This is a huge credit to NASA for listening and acting quickly to fix a problem! This is why I love NASA, and will continue to race with you guys.

 

Thanks again.

 

Matt

[V8legends]

As you have guessed from the user name I'm a current Legends driver. This passed weekend a "NEWGUY" showed up ay a road race for the first time and it had been years sense his last oval race in a street stock. I personally spent 6 hours Friday night Teching his car including full front end alignment and rear axle square check. WHY? because I want the safest cars on the track when I'm out there, I don't want him learning bad driving techniques because his car isn't set up right. He then spent extra time after the drivers meeting going over the flags one more time. Does this make him a good driver? NO! On Sunday during qualifying a "good driver" with a NASA LICENCE driving a Miata, distroyed one of the legends cars by hitting him square in the back and pushed the fuel cell all the way to the drivers seat. A mis-judgement on his part cost 5 grand and have been a lot worse. So whats the scoop? we were told this weekend (4-14-15/07) that Legends could not race "Out of Class" If we wanted to run PTC we would need a licence, but if we stayed in group C an INEX licence was OK. The bottom line is a licence does NOT make the driver, peer pressure and group disipline set the standard. A standard that in my 8 years is the envy of most other race groups.

v8legends

[speedracer33]

Does this make him a good driver? NO!

 

Steve, please forgive my ignorance, but I must be missing something here. Are you saying that you knowingly and intentionally put a bad driver on the racetrack?!?

 

I also find it interesting that you spent 6 hours teching his car, obviously recognizing the fact that a driver with no experience needs help in many aspects of the racing universe. However, despite this attention to the tech aspect, you don't feel the same kind of time and development should be devoted to his driving ability? You speak of him having to "learn techniques" (be they good or bad), but do you really think that the place to learn is during race sessions with everybody around him going 10/10ths, and with open passing?

 

On Sunday during qualifying a "good driver" with a NASA LICENCE driving a Miata, distroyed one of the legends cars by hitting him square in the back

 

I must be having a bad day, because I don't understand this argument either. There was a wreck on track involving (or possibly caused by) a non-Legends car... so that justifies putting a Legends driver on the track with absolutely no experience? If you got the impression from my earlier messages that I expected all wheel to wheel contact to go away completely if we only allow NASA licensed drivers in our races, you definately misunderstood.

 

So whats the scoop? we were told this weekend (4-14-15/07) that Legends could not race "Out of Class" If we wanted to run PTC we would need a licence, but if we stayed in group C an INEX licence was OK.

 

Sadly, this sounds like a complete failure of what I am trying to do. My argument is that unless they have their own dedicated group, no Legends car would put a wheel on the track during ANY racing session in ANY class without a NASA license. If the Legends car was hit by a Miata, obviously you didn't have your own group, so the danger of having an unlicensed driver sharing the track with everybody else was not mitigated in any way. The new guy you mentioned should not have been allowed to race, period. He should have been sent to DE to learn how to drive a road course in a learning environment instead of a competition environment.

 

What we also haven't explored here is what actually caused the incident. The simple fact that a Miata was involved, and that a Legends car was pretty much destroyed, does not imply causation. Was this an experienced racer in the Legends car? Did he hold a license other than the INEX one? Even if he was hit from behind, did the Legends driver do something unpredictable (that an experienced racer would know not to do) that actually caused the wreck? I'm not jumping to conclusions and blaming the Legends car... I'm just saying that until we know more it isn't right for us to jump to conclusions and blame the Miata either.

 

The fact of the matter is, the incident you speak of might be complete and total proof that what I am suggesting is 100% appropriate. If that is the case, why aren't we talking about the poor Miata driver who has to pay for the damage to his car that shouldn't have happened?

 

The bottom line is a licence does NOT make the driver, peer pressure and group disipline set the standard. A standard that in my 8 years is the envy of most other race groups.

 

Steve, I'm not looking to pick a fight here, but what other groups are you talking about? Every race group I have ever spoken to thinks that the INEX system of licensing is absolutely unacceptable under any circumstances. As somebody who has raced for 8 years, and obviously understands the importance of experience (or you wouldn't have helped the new guy so much), how can you possibly justify putting a first time road course driver out in a racing environment?

 

You pointed out that the Legends car that was hit from behind ended up with the fuel cell against the driver's seat. You also acknowledged the fact that "it could have been a lot worse." Going a step further... if it was that bad getting hit by a Miata, imagine if it was a heavier and/or faster car. So you can imagine my confusion when you seem to be arguing that Legends cars should be able to race in any class that they want to, regardless of whether or not they earned a license or pulled it out of a Cracker Jack box. To me, it sounds like are you asking for somebody to get hurt.... badly.

 

I am not trying to get rid of Legends cars, and I have no problem with them racing alongside the rest of us, IF they are qualified to do so.

 

A completely inexperienced driver is more likely to be involved in, or to cause, an incident. I don't have stats on hand to back that up, but I can't imagine any racer here arguing that point. Now, if a Legends car clearly does not hold up well when involved in a wreck with full bodied cars, why are you pushing to put those inexperienced drivers into the most dangerous environment possible in our kind of racing? It sounds like you are being selfish about wanting to race where you want, and have no regard for the safety of the new drivers, or the other racers who share the track.

 

So at the end of the day, I guess my real question is.... what is your point? Incase you missed my point, I'll say it again. A race session is NOT a place for an inexperienced driver to learn. Every other racer you share the track with has had to earn a license to prove a minimum skill level before being allowed to race, to help improve their safety, as well as the safety of those they are racing with. What makes Legends drivers so special that they should not be certified in the same way?

 

I can't wait to hear the answer to that last question.....