Mule Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I did a search, but found no topics on this, which seems strange. Is it just obvious? I would guess DOHC because it should work better in the upper rpm range, but the single cam engines seem to have more grunt. So which is it, or does it matter? If you can't tell, I'm trying to edumacate myself to make a Mustang purchase soon. Thanks for any advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 What about more torque, less weight, and better reliability? Pushrod 302? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Head over to Gene Fine's site, http://www.modulardepot.com. He's running AI now and using 2V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Head over to Gene Fine's site, http://www.modulardepot.com. He's running AI now and using 2V. I did a quick check of the site, and looks like its geared to drag racing. There hasn't been many people to successfully race the mod motor on a road coarse. I'm not saying "none", but very few that I'm aware of. My understanding is that it doesn't hold up to the long runs of high RPM's, and that the oiling system is inadequate. Perhaps someone who is using the mod motor could chime in. The 302 is cheaper, lighter, more reliable and easier to work on. Plus the aftermarket parts list is endless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I second that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Shugg Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I did a quick check of the site, and looks like its geared to drag racing. There hasn't been many people to successfully race the mod motor on a road coarse. I'm not saying "none", but very few that I'm aware of. My understanding is that it doesn't hold up to the long runs of high RPM's, and that the oiling system is inadequate. Perhaps someone who is using the mod motor could chime in. The 302 is cheaper, lighter, more reliable and easier to work on. Plus the aftermarket parts list is endless. Couldn't be farther from the truth! I ran a stock 4.6L 4V Cobra motor for 1.5 seasons of time trials and open tracking, as well as some street driving. THEN I decided to take it AI racing in 2002. It lasted 2 full seasons (every race ran) of AI racing, plus schools. The motor is on it's third season of AI racing and is making the most power it's ever made. It had pulleys, an offroad X, a Simmons Short Runner Intake, a Quarter Master Extreme-V alum clutch assembly, etc. (read: bolt-ons) and was more than competitive. The motor was never opened up. It had an Accusump and Canton baffled road racing pan since I started racing. It started it's 3rd season of AI racing this year. The mod motor rules. Don't listen to these pushrod boyz - they are monuments to inefficiency. Come check it out at BeaveRun June 5/6. It will be thumpin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Bryan, I'm glad you've had success with the mod motor. I know guys are running them, however, I haven't seen very many. And of the few I've seen many have had reliability problems. Do you believe it has any advantage over the push rod? My experience (second hand) has been that it revs up faster, but it's down on torgue compared to the push rod. I would love to make it to Beaver Run June 6th, and check it out in action. However, I just got back from Putnam this past weekend, and I'm not sure I can swing it. Dave #29 CMC OH/IN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaracer32 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 [The mod motor rules. Don't listen to these pushrod boyz - they are monuments to inefficiency. Mod motors are for those who are, shall we say, mechanically challenged. Mods would be great for a spec series. Pushrods rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 I guess I was just under the impression that the '99+ mustangs I've seen running were using the factory engine with some cooling and breathing modifications. Are you saying the 03 SVT with forged internals is not even strong enough to withstand a racing series? I just assumed pushrod was dead. I know this is not true. I just remembered talking with some AI/AIX guys and looking at their cars. I know I saw those 4.6s that look like big blocks under the hood. In fact I remember seeing some Mach Is with the shaker hood. These were full race prep cars too. I remember Gingerman last year watching a '99+ green car that looked nearly stock DOMINATE the race. What gives? I don't think I'm getting both sides of the story here. Besides I would consider myself mechanically challenged if it meant pulling a motor out of a brand new Mustang and putting in another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted May 26, 2004 Members Share Posted May 26, 2004 I have to agree with Bryan - the mod motor is looking better every day - there has only been one mod motor failure compare to numerous pushrod failures - I am giving a mod motor a serious look at for my next race car I have heard all of these issues about 'poor oiling' but so far all the failures I have read/heard about were the cheap parts that Ford engineers chose to use - once the motor is upgraded to the levels that most pushrod motors are nowadays they make awesome power AND last past 7k rpm... pushrod = 1950's (antique) technology? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted May 26, 2004 Members Share Posted May 26, 2004 Mod motors are for those who are, shall we say, mechanically challenged. Mods would be great for a spec series. Pushrods rule. So you are saying go pushrod if you like to rebuild your engine? you should know... (who luvs ya baby? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Whatever you do to them, mod motors are still heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I'll ask the same questions, again. What is the advantage of the Mod motor? And do they compensate for the fact that they are heavier? Don't they put out less torgue at higher RPM's ? I'm all for new technology, but only if its better than the old technology. Mule, The car your referring to at Gingerman is Jeremy Behrendt. He was dominate that weekend and a couple others. But, (Edit: I beleave) he was side lined with engine trouble later in the year. He was running a supercharger and was using the very controversial IRS, but a that's debate for another thread. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 95 GT RR, Funny you mention IRS, that was my thread two days ago, and his name came up there. From that thread I was advised to visit the Kenny Brown website. Awesome site, that 'club sport racer' he offers is Anyway, that is what prompted me to post this question. He builds SOHC and DOHC motors. If the push rod is superior, why doesnt he offer that as an option, or does he? The only pricing I saw was for overhead cam, and he isnt giving them away that's for sure. I can give you one advantage of the Mod motor, it's in the car when I buy it So what year mustangs come with pushrods 94-98, or pre94? Jeremy must be one hell of a driver! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 The pushrod motors are up to and including 1995. 96 is the first year for the mod motor. It looks like people are making them work, but are they any better or just newer? Outfits like Steeda and Kenny Brown are promoting all that is new in the Mustang world, so that includes the mod motor. From a marketing view they are selling parts for the modern car. These are the cars that are out there and thats what Ford is selling, so the "cutting edge" (use your own judgement) after market suppliers need to keep up. Oddly enough, I'm a supporter of the IRS, but I need to see more race experience with it. Jeremy made it work, so it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 Thanks for all the input everyone, I know these questions may have been old news and probably beat to death. I just dont want to purchase a car and end up kicking myself for buying the wrong one. Seems like there isnt really a WRONG choice just different opinions. Thats good, a lot of experience with Mustangs that just isnt there with the GMs (oops now I pissed somebody off). Also a lot of good options for the Mustang. So, lets say money is not an issue, what car would be the best to purchase for AI/AIX? I know, 50 people will have 50 different answers but I am curious. From the list below: '99,'01 SVT '03+ SVT Mach I (the new one) '99+ GT I promise to stop asking stupid questions now, thanks again, very good info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Head over to Gene Fine's site, http://www.modulardepot.com. He's running AI now and using 2V. I did a quick check of the site, and looks like its geared to drag racing. There hasn't been many people to successfully race the mod motor on a road coarse. I'm not saying "none", but very few that I'm aware of. My understanding is that it doesn't hold up to the long runs of high RPM's, and that the oiling system is inadequate. Perhaps someone who is using the mod motor could chime in. The 302 is cheaper, lighter, more reliable and easier to work on. Plus the aftermarket parts list is endless. It is geared to drag racing, but much of the mod engine technology is the same for either application. Email Gene directly and he can answer a lot of your questions, as I just discussed a similar matter with him last weekend at Putnam. Regarding oiling issues, that pertains to 4V motors, not 2V. My 2V motor, stock, has 30+ track days on it plus street driving. Not a problem with it, and all I've done is oil and fluid changes. I run it to 5500-6000rpm routinely on the track, and don't let it rev below 3500. You can't be more reliable than that. I've seen as many cracked pushrod blocks as I have broken mod motors (and those were only 4V, not 2V). I suggest checking the mod motor failures out for 4V vs. 2V - I think you'll find they have two different sets of results. Besides, what are you looking for in a motor? In AI you're limited by the weight/power ratio, and getting a 2V mod motor to make 310 RWHP is pretty easy with no supercharger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 From your list I would do with an 01 Cobra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaracer32 Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Mule, On a serious note, I think a lot of it comes down to preference. I personally prefer pushrod stuff because that is what I grew up working on. IMHO, they are easier to work on. After helping Pearson take his apart, I have zero interest in trying to build one. But as far as the mod motors, they are consistently run in the Grand Am series in the DP cars for 6, 12 and even 24 hour races. It just depends on what you perfer and what you are going to do with the car. Asking around like you are doing is one of the first things to do. Of course, the most important thing is that no matter what kind of motor you have, you ALWAYS want to be sure you can step on the gas the whole way. Right, Pantas???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Shugg Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Of course, the most important thing is that no matter what kind of motor you have, you ALWAYS want to be sure you can step on the gas the whole way. Right, Pantas???? HA HA HA HAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAH HA!!!! My modular motor was in the car when I bought it new in '98. The way I see it: Disadvantages: -It's new. Anything new is expensive. -It's heavy. By the time you add up all of the miscellaneous junk of an aluminum DOHC mod motor, it weighs about 75-100lbs (debatable - still haven't seen concrete numbers). Cast iron SOHC's are slightly heavier. -It's complex. Most are scared of it's complexity. -Lack of low end torque. -Perceived lack of aftermarket (the aftermarket for the mod motor is rapidly catching the pushrods...) Advantages: -They last. The oiling issues aren't all that bad if you throw an Accusump and road racing pan on them. -They make great power stock. -With a few bolt-ons and without opening them up (stock internals) they make AI-level power all day long. -They rev up to 7k - more usable rpm. -Powerhouse giants like RYR realize that the mod motor is Ford's "wave of the future" and are pooring lots of R&D money into the motors. Some RYR engines with VERY LITTLE work are making boatloads of power (550+) with only 280 cubes. And, the motors last. Failures - I have seen countless failures of modified pushrods. If you go with a 302 based motor, you need to mod the crap out of them to perform at AI levels. Either you wind them real high or stroke them - both decrease longevity. If you go with a 351 based motor, the weight penalty starts to even out. Every single AI-east pushrod competitor I can think of has either blown their motor(s) or suffered other reliability issues. Only one mod motor has failed on the East coast. If money was not an issue.... I'd go mod motor. You can put together a mod motor that SCREAMS to 7.5K, is extremely reliable, and do some supertrick stuff to that you can't do to a single-bumpstick car. For instance, they make adjustable cam gears. You can adjust timing on the exhaust and intake valves independently of one another, shoving the power curve up or down the rpm range. It's pretty trick stuff. If you are budget minded, a STOCK 351 or STOCK 302 is the way to go. I'm still not convinced they'll last as long as a stock mod motor though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted May 26, 2004 Members Share Posted May 26, 2004 Of course, the most important thing is that no matter what kind of motor you have, you ALWAYS want to be sure you can step on the gas the whole way. Right, Pantas???? In the immortal words of Will Sadler... "I am speechless..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 In deference to Shugg who has gotten some GREAT use out of his mod-motor I'd add that my SOHC experience wasn't that much fun (96 GT) - had no power and back then (97-98 ) there was very little in the way of aftermarket solutions to help. I was too cheap to buy a Cobra, lol. Like some others have mentioned, I grew up working on pushrod motors so that's where my comfort level was (although I still don't understand what the computer and EFI are doing most of the time). My 95GT 302 on the other hand is making AI power with just heads, cam, and intake/TB/MAF upgrades. The motor is a 110K mile stock short block (with the exception of the cam and new timing chain) and if/when it needs to be replaced it is only $1299 from Ford, toss in another $150 for the cam upgrade. I don't rev to 7800, to be honest my motor rarely gets taken to anything over 5800 rpm so I don't need exotic stuff on it. Box stock aluminum heads (read - no porting), $1000 and bolt them on. It's a combo I can live with and race without worrying about my $$ investment too much. If the block someday spits a rod, then I unbolt all my goodies from the old mill and put them on the new Ford shortblock. I don't have 2 full race seasons on it yet, so I can't compare the durability of my combo to Bryan's success - yet. The point I'm trying to make is that in AI with the power ratio limit and spec tire, you don't necessarily have to spend big bucks to get the motor up to speed (sorry Bryan, this where our opinions diverge). You might consider taking the money that an 01 Cobra or Mach 1 is going to cost you and put into a 94-95 GT, upgrade the suspension, put some $$ into bolt-ons for the motor (including heads and cam), do the safety stuff, and go racing! Not sure what your racing budget is, but "little" items like tow vehicle, trailer, and travel costs add up pretty quickly, no matter what engine your car has in it! Also, you may want to shop around for sorted cars that already have the cage, race seat, etc. If you get a good deal on one of those, it may determine which motor you "decide" on for you already! Just do it, it's a blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 I think one of the beauties about AI is that there really is more than one way to skin a cat and it has been proven that both the mod and pushrod motors can be made to be competitive. How was that for trying to bring the camps together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 I think one of the beauties about AI is that there really is more than one way to skin a cat and it has been proven that both the mod and pushrod motors can be made to be competitive. How was that for trying to bring the camps together? Completely uncharacteristic of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Shugg Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 I think one of the beauties about AI is that there really is more than one way to skin a cat and it has been proven that both the mod and pushrod motors can be made to be competitive. I like it. Well said. We actually began fusing 4 Ford Festiva motors to each wheel. The only problem was that it was still slower than evolution. I guess my point is - while the mod motor takes a beating from the pushrod crowd, it's a good motor. But like my good Texas friend said, they are more expensive. Truth be told (don't quote me!), if I didn't have a mod motor in the car when I bought it, I'm not sure my car would have one in it now. Though, I like the motor so much that I put another one in the car once already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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