Let's talk about smarter racing and cleaner starts.

[Tim Comeau]

I'm posting this now to maybe get drivers thinking about it before the next event and to save some time at the next drivers meeting.

 

1. I'd like to see a tighter formation when we're rolling up to take the green flag. Seems like some drivers never decide which side to pick and they just kind of hover in the middle of the track. Please guys, pick a side and get up on the car in front of you. Not 30 feet back and not under his bumper. Every driver that doesn't "tighten it up" puts the cars behind them in a worse starting position relative to the pole position. The last couple times we started at Button Willow, I would say I lost about 200 feet due to "dead space" in the rolling start formation. So PLEASE, know the # of the car you're supposed to start behind, know which side pole position is on and get into formation (abreast or in the next row back)quickly because the guys behind you, who are still in single file, can't tell which side to pick until the drivers in front of them do so. Make sense? Let's tighten it up!

 

Second point is: Let's race smarter with respect to the different classes. We already know not to mess up someone's class battle. What I'm talking about is when a much faster car/driver makes a poor decision about WHEN to pass. This seems to happen at every event, though with different cars. At Button Willow, I had a much faster Honda try to outbrake me in the slow narrow turn exiting the bus stop. You guys know the turn. I cussed, made "racing room" for him, and we both went through the turn SUPER slow!! Talk about inefficient.........Both of us were hurt by his poor decision.

If that driver had simply fallen in line behind me, we BOTH could have gone through that turn 20 mph faster.........THEN he could have used his superior hp to easily get past me going into Riverside with hardly any lost time on his part! Make sense? It's all about efficiency guys. You've got to be thinking, "Where is the most efficient place to pass this guy in front of me?" It isn't always the first opportunity! I understand the sense of urgency to get back up to your full speed, but let's weigh that against how much time will be lost by the passing move.

It's much safer to pass under acceleration too. In your experience, where is most contact between cars made? My experience tells me it's under braking and the turn in point. Agreed?

 

Risk assessment.

Driving efficiency.

Racing etiquette.

I try to keep those 3 things in mind every second I'm out there. How 'bout you?

Let's work to make it a better, safer racing experience for everybody out there.

 

Driving.....for the love of it!

[PeanutinCA]

Now if you could just get that passing message out to the "faster cars" that would be great. Thanks Timmy, your a champ! We will await your feedback on how the Honda guys responded to your suggestions?

 

P.Dilly.

[Tim Comeau]

If you remind me I'll stand up at the driver's meeting too.

[944-spec#09]

Tim

I was under the impression that only the pole position got to chose inside or outside for the start. All other rows line up in normal position (i.e. odd numbers on the inside, even on the outside (defined by the first turn). Thus if the pole decides to line up on the outside of row one, then he lines up in front of starter #4. Is this wrong?

[Tim Comeau]

Steve,

Thanks for asking. The NASA CCR's state ( section 20.3.2) that "the pole sitter does NOT have the option of choosing the pole, unless otherwise arranged with the race director." Once the grid has been laid out, it's a pain to change it because the drivers come up to the posted sheets and make notes to memorize their starting positions. So you HAVE to tell the race director immediately after qualifying on pole, that you'd like to start on the outside pole because he'll have to flip-flop the whole field.

Also, if someone doesn't show up on the grid, or fails to start, that creates a "hole" in the starting formation, which the guys are supposed to fill up. They should do it while staying in order, but often don't. They just move straight up instead of crossing over. That's the beauty of a "Splitter" person as you leave the pre-grid. They are working ONLY with the actual number of cars that will be racing. As you roll up to them, starting with the pole sitter, they point to their left or right, and that's the side of the track you start on. Simple. Works great. For some reason NASA did away with the position in Jan of 2001.

 

At your service,

[944-spec#09]

Tim

Thanks for the explanation. NASA AZ has been following the rule as I described it which is, as I understand from you, up to the race director. The way I described makes sense as I don't understand why the whole field would switch just because the pole decides he/she wants the outside. I can ask Dan where our policy came from. I assume it was probably taken from another race organization.

[NASA Jim]

I dunno, I though it was Racing 101 that you learned how to form up 2x2 out on the track. Because of missing racers, etc, don't expect to start on your grid position unless you're on the pole. I'm usually mid-pack or back, so you just fill in the next empty space. Doesn't sound too hard to me?

 

If there is a hole and you stay in our outside grid position instead of filling the hole, then your deserve to have it taken away by a more savvy racer, IMHO.

[944-spec#09]

Jim,

I agree some people can't seem to understand that it is their responsibility to figure out where they belong on the grid. The "splitter" actually made things worse, I think, because people got lazy depending on them and didn't bother to figure out where they belong. A lot of our problems in the past have been due to many new racers with little experience, however, the groups are maturing now and most understand their responsibilities.

[PeanutinCA]

If I qualify mid pack overall and in front of someone in my class, it's not a sportsman like situation if that person who qualified behind me, to get to fill in an empty spot in front of him and thus swtiching to be in front of me. Which is where Tim's point comes in that people don't know to switch sides, they just move forward. Giving someone behind you an advantage.

[NASA Jim]

If I qualify mid pack overall and in front of someone in my class, it's not a sportsman like situation if that person who qualified behind me, to get to fill in an empty spot in front of him and thus swtiching to be in front of me. Which is where Tim's point comes in that people don't know to switch sides, they just move forward. Giving someone behind you an advantage.

 

I think basically there are two cases.

 

1) You leave a spot open on the inside and someone in the row behind you has the chance to take it. In this case it is definitely your job to take that spot. You should fill in up to the next car on grid. If there is a car missing that was ahead of you, you need to move up and take that spot. There shouldn't be any "holes" as the cars come to take the green. If you don't take the spot, someone else will. You snooze, you lose!

 

2) You are on the inside and there is an empty spot ahead of you in the row ahead of you and the guy on the outside of your row has the chance to take it. It is a little more difficult to get the spot in this case, but I think I am leaning towards the YSYL again. Usually the cars are coming out of single file so you should be able to get to that spot before the guy on the outside.

 

Now, true, there is sometimes a lot of shuffling and you may have move to fill a spot and then a higher spot appears and someone else grabs it. However, I think there's plenty of time to get things sorted out and just because you are in a spot doesn't mean you can't move to a higher open one. If someone is in your spot, give them a little horn and talk to them after the race.

 

Sometimes bad things happen to good racers, but with being aware of your position in relation to the cars around you goes a long way.

[PeanutinCA]

You know I guess if we are saying that the position we take on the grid is not relevent once we form up, then I agree? IF everyone can shuffle in quick enough in a single file and form left OR right depending on the next position available, then great, that works just fine. So effectively we perform our own formation that the splitter would achieve if there was one.

[Tim Comeau]

BAD, BAD, BAD.

 

The senario---

First turn is to the right.

Pole sitter is on the right, in postion 1.

If there's a hole in the formation on the right side of the field, and a driver on the right moves up into the hole...............He's just moved up 2 positions in the starting formation. That's NOT where he qualified.

 

That's why it's critical to KNOW the car # of the guy who qual'd in front of you. That's why I want the guys to form up sooner. I can't tell which side I'm supposed to be on until the guys in front of me "fill the holes" and get into postion, AND STAY THERE. And that's also why we SHOULD have a splitter. A splitter accounts for holes in the formation, caused by "no shows" or "non-starters" as we leave the grid. No possibility of being in the wrong position or the wrong side of the track.

Make sense?

Sound correct and fair?

 

***Also, Steve, Now that I think about it more, the field from position # 3 back, shouldn't have to flip flop just because the pole sitter chooses the outside. That would be unfair to the #3 guy (and others) because he would be moved to the outside, into position # 4, when he DID quailfy 3rd.

[944-spec#09]

Tim

I'm glad you agree with my understanding that only the first row can swap places at the pole (and race director's) discretion. I think all the other comments are correct also, the only real problem I see is when a person mistakenly moves up when they shouldn't. It is almost impossible to get them to correct their error.

 

Example:

There is a hole in the inside position of row 3. The inside car in row 4 mistakenly moves forward instead of the outside car in row 3 moving inside and the inside in row 4 moving to row 3 outside, all others behind must then move up.

 

This is a very difficult manuever for all cars to make and make correctly. I think that the "hole" is best corrected on the grid by the grid people (or "splitter") before the cars go out. If this has not been done, and the proper car does not move up, I think being the car behind the hole, I would be more likely to hold position and leave the hole. This may give the car behind the hole (me) a slight advantage with more acceleration room but does not disqualify me by starting out of position and does not screw up or cause confusion in the rest of the field behind.

[944-Spec#94]

Ok here is my take on this.

 

Front row can do what ever they want. Inside outside. whatever.

 

Only #1 guy has is spot "defined" all other are fill in.

 

Now when coming to form up. You yourself are single file. You need to wait to the guys in front start forming side by side. If they have done that is becomes pretty easy to pick you spot. Your spot is the farest forward and to the inside. If the guy in front is lazy and does want to form up because of some "missing" car. Tough give him a second or two to take it and then you do it yourself. This may mean you move forward from the inside to the outside or you move from the outside to the inside on the same row. If you are single file the guy behind needs to do the same thing you are of coursing allowing you a second or two pick that spot.

 

Sure if some moves from the inside of row 4 to the inside of row 3 everyone else can be hosed. Well tough. You need to stay on you toes. Don't be kind to folks. Do what you can on the start to get the best postion you can. While the green is not out you have really started the racing even before you got on the track. It may be in look or stare at acompetitor it maybe the way you hope in the car and appear relaxed or concern. It may very well by looking at the guy in front to see if he check his tire pressure just reciently. All of this is part of the mind games of racing. There are plenty of safe things you can do to attempt a mental edge on a competitor.

 

Heck I remember on Chris Cervelli pulled on me. He said the outiside at PIR was not so bad at the start. You could actually use that and pull around folks. Well I had the inside and he had the outside for the class. On green went inside, but left a bit of room thinking Chris was going to work the outside line. Well all of sudden I hear him slipping through on the inside where I thought there was not enough room. Damn He snookered me and too the lead eventually beat me to the line. In talking later he said.. "Yeah the outside it not too bad, but I saw room on the inside so I took it. Oh well!"

 

Head games are a huge part of racing. I learned alot that race.

[Tim Comeau]

Steve, I'm in agreement 100%.

 

Joe, I have a problem with drivers getting a better starting position than what they earned/deserve. I don't see it as being "on your toes and gaining a fair advantage." To me, starting out of position is cheating and I would protest it.

There would be no problems like this if we used a splitter person and I'm going to encourage it in NASA. We use a splitter in POC and it works well.

[PeanutinCA]

Timmeeeeee,

ummm, after review of my video from Sunday, you push your way up in attempt of "improving" your position. It's only when the Sentra drops back next to Pete that you are sent back to your place behind Pete.. Damn cheater you are!

 

P.Dilly.

[Tim Comeau]

Nope. Not true. I try to start abreast the guy next to me........and right on the bumper of the guy in front of me!

[PeanutinCA]

The video doesn't lie my furry little chipmunk. You are side by side with Pete as you round the last turn and half way to the starters flag the Sentra drops back pushing you back and Pete forward.

[944-Spec#94]

Well Tim,

If all drivers move forward to get the best spot they can then nobody gets an advantage. Simple. That was my point. Every driver needs to look to move forward not taking some else spot, but don't leave a spot open either.

 

I think the problem is where IS a space infront of a driver and he feels he can't take it because he qualfied row x inside and feels he sould be row X inside. Baloney. If row x-1 outside is open take that spot dang it. If I am row x outside and the inside guy is not going to move up a row then I am going to take that spot. This where the "snooze you loose" comes in. Simple fill forward. If everyone does it right then nobody gets hosed and the there is nice tight bunch field. No splitter required!

 

Simplest way to think about it is the following. I am right behind car number XX and car number XXX. Figure this on the grid. Forget about being inside or outside.

[Tim Comeau]

Dylan, that makes sense. Sounds right. I believe Pete was 6th, and I was 7th. He would be on the outside of row 3, me , on the inside of row 4. The right side of the field must have moved farther forward than it should have, compared to the left. That is, the guys in front of us weren't side by side. When they did get into correct formation, side by side, then Pete ended up in the row forward of me. Perfect. That's why it's important to get paired up AND STAY THAT WAY.

[PeanutinCA]

Yes, that's pretty much how it occured. I will also note, that your car did NOT accelerate away from mine on the grid. Assuming you had your foot planted, we were pretty much identical in speed/pace down the front straight on the Green flag drop. Good to note. So perhaps your not the complete cheater as other suggest! Kidding.

 

P.Dilly.

[Tim Comeau]

Joe, Gotta disagree with you my friend. This is not about snozzing, it's about what's right and wrong. It's a procedural thing.

If you qualified outside in the row BEHIND me, you're supposed to start in the outside row BEHIND me. If the guy next to me on the outside (I'm on the inside) doesn't start, you don't get to move up abreast me. You're gaining 2 starting positions which you didn't earn. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I would protest that afterwards. It amounts to a "free" pass for class position. A splitter fixes the problem before it occurs because he, in effect, "erases" the holes in the starting formation as drivers leave the grid. That's fair because we would all start in qualifying order, which is the goal in the first place. I'm going to try to fix this problem in SoCal, for the reasons stated above.

[944-Spec#94]

Tim understand your point completely. My counter argument is the next to you who qualfied one spot infront should move up on row to the outside then you should move in the same row on the inside. No holes in grid on the start. Holes on the grid at drop of green are not good either.

 

My statment was that if every driver "filled up" from single file order then the grid would filled tightly and everone would be in the right spot relative to the competitors that qualifed one spot up and one spot back.

 

If you have one guy that wants to leave hole on grid and another that does not you get a mess.

 

My advice is for ALL DRIVERS to fill in all holes without a splitter. Should not be that hard!

[TheWho]

Can't wait to race with the NASA group in Sept. - the TC nosing won't be an acceptable strategy as he did the same thing to me at the POC event.

 

Can't wait to race him (and you) with the new engine.

[PeanutinCA]

Say what? I thought you guys wouldn't be making any NASA races in the future? Does this mean your back? Say David, ask John if he recognizes what's up with my tire wear on the other post?

 

P.Dilly.