Funny scales

[gbrown8439]

I would like to hear from anyone who was at Beaverun last weekend that thought the scales gave them a different weight than they expected on saturday. Both of our cars were close to 75# light and it got us DQ saturday. Funny thing is we changed nothing but rims and scaled just fine for sunday.

Thanks for your help,

Greg Brown

AI #7

[Bryan Shugg]

Greg - I have not seen my exact numbers, but according to Eric, on Saturday my car was 3050# post race. This is pretty much "dead on" the money for my car.

 

I'm not certain what it weighed on Sunday.

[924RACR]

I was not there, but I have heard some others questioning the scale results...

[tacovini]

Our scales in Texas (courtesy of AI racer Mike Bell) were acting funny last weekend too. When a CMC car came off the scales almost 100 lbs light, Mike stood on each corner scale and could only repeat his body weight on 3 of the 4 scales. (spot on for 3 of them)

 

One scale showed his body weight to be ~50 lbs light...we waived the scaling tech and assured people didn't remove things (like seats) from their cars. As long as the scales have been calibrated to zero and confirmed correct...those are the official scales for the weekend!

 

We'll report any findings when his warranty work determines what the cause of the poor reading.

 

-=- Todd Covini

[Black Horse]

I would think the validation of the scales prior to the first use each day would be a standard practice. I have yet to see someone set a standardized weight (lets say a chunk of steel that has a calibrated weight etched on it) on any scale at any event to VERIFY the scales are performing acceptably. Set-up the scales, document the calibration is correct (verify) - no more arguments!

 

(Now how do you apply that to the Dyno? - a whole new can of worms!)

[Keith]

My car read heavier than I expected (I know that your readings went the other way). A while back, I weighed my car on a Longacre 4-pad system that was supposedly calibrated. It weighted 3230 without me in it. I weigh about 190 and assume that my helmut etc would net about 200lbs, or 3430. Since that time, I have removed/replaced the following items resulting in the following net reductions in weight according to my wife's bathroom scales:

Removed the center console - 10lbs

Removed driver's side and passenger side inner door panels 16lbs

Removed the glovebox - 2lbs

Replaced Steel Driveshaft with Aluminum Driveshaft - 5lbs

 

This is a total reduction of 33lbs netting 3397lbs.

 

At Beaver Run on Sunday, I weighed in at 3553lbs with less fuel than in the above weights. This results in a difference of 156lbs (again with a lower fuel load).

 

Either the first scale that I used was wrong or the scale at Beaver Run is suspect. I have no idea how to verify which scale is off...

[racercosmo]

You also have to make sure that the car is squarely on the scale pads. We have had problems like that before, if one wheel is even slightly off, you can throw the weight off by a lot. Obviously, the driver is in the car so he can't do it, but bring your buddy to impound and make it his duty to get the car on the pad correctly, and have him read the scale personally to verify that the weight makes sense.

[gbrown8439]

That is the lesson we learned the hard way last weekend. From now on I will not move off the scales until my crew gives me the OK. When you leave the scales you pretty much give up your chance to dispute the readings.

[johnbasf]

Would using only 2 pads make a difference in the readings? I hope this isn't a dumb question.

[Keith]

I'm glad someone pointed this out. I was wondering when someone was going to seize in on this. Given that the wood surrounding the 2 pads was slightly lower than the pads, my instincts are that the weights would read a little lower assuming there isn't some other influence at work.

 

Overall, and in my limited experience with these scales, it appears that it is possible that you could get a false reading if one is not properly centered on the pads. It is equally possible in these instances that the false readings would be on either side of the actual weight, I guess.

 

Are these basically strain gauges or something else?

[racercosmo]

Now I understand that you weren't told at the time that your car was underweight, is that correct? I hope this is being appealed.

[mwilson7]

One thing to consider is that if the scales were actually wrong then wouldn't everyones cars rear light one day and heavy the next? Although all of the weights aren't being shared from the ones that I know of they were comparable both days (give or take 1-3 gallons of fuel).

[Keith]

If the readings vary based on where you were on the pads, then you wouldn't necessarily see a pattern - just random behavior. Unfortunately, I only weighed my car on Sunday so I can't compare...

 

IIRC, Greg only changed his wheels and saw a significantly different weight (this my be wrong, but I thought that is what I heard).

[Bryan Shugg]

Greg - I realize I'm the one that would benefit by you being DQ'ed as I was #2 in line. However, this race was out of region for me so it really doesn't matter to me. In other words... please don't misread what I'm saying - you know I congratulated you after both days. Though, I do wish I got to know more faces that weekend.

 

What were the weights of your car? My car is 2864 without a driver and 3 gallons of fuel. I weigh 186 with gear. Added together, that's 3050 - exactly what my car supposedly weighed on Sat with about 3-4 gallons of fuel. In the past 2 years of AI racing, it has always weighed about what I thought it would, give or take a 10-20 pounds. As the weight came out of the car, I always rescaled it to ensure cross weights were decent (with nearly 59% of the weight on my front wheels, I could care less about distribution).

 

In other words, I've never been surprised by scales. That's not to say that there couldn't be a discrepancy. Unless there was a mistake made by the operator though, the scales seemed fine to me (again... your mileage may vary). How far off were your weights?

[racercosmo]

Bryan, I am agreeing with you more or less. I think the error was due to the car not being properly weighed, not a malfunction of the scales, a malfunction of the people involved.

[mwilson7]

For what it's worth there were two people writing the weights down independently of each other and the weights were within 5 lbs total of each other. The odds of them both writing down the wrong numbers are pretty slim and to write down the wrong numbers with less than a 1 % error is even more unlikely.

 

At this point I would chalk it up as a learning experience.

[gbrown8439]

We should have weighed 3036 with the Forgelines but the scales said 2975. I don't think the numbers were written down wrong I think the scales were set up wrong. I watched Eric run the cord for the right scale through the gap in the left scale on Sunday. I have no idea if this could have caused the problem on Sat. but it sure wouldn't help.

My main problem is with the way the situation was handled. I was told by Eric that I would not be disqualified for only being over by 6.5 hp. Looking back now, that was the wrong decision but I'm not going to look the gift horse in the mouth. Had he disqualified me right there at least I would have had the chance to re-scale the car right away and figure out the problem. When I get an email two days later telling me I was disqualified I have little or no recourse. My only proof now that we didn't add any weight is the fact that Sundays results were even better than Sat.

I will apeal this and see what happens.

[EFisher12]

The only real discrepancy in MY mind during the weekend was when Eric Meehan stepped on those same damn scales and said he only weighed 145lbs...!!!

 

Maybe without the mustache..... but that still seems a tad light to me...!!!

 

E Fisher

AI Mid West #12 #33

Panoz GTS #8 (as of next week)

 

BeavRun was a ball, great to see everyone.

[mwilson7]

My main problem is with the way the situation was handled. I was told by Eric that I would not be disqualified for only being over by 6.5 hp. Looking back now, that was the wrong decision but I'm not going to look the gift horse in the mouth. Had he disqualified me right there at least I would have had the chance to re-scale the car right away and figure out the problem. When I get an email two days later telling me I was disqualified I have little or no recourse. My only proof now that we didn't add any weight is the fact that Sundays results were even better than Sat.

I will apeal this and see what happens.

 

Does this mean you knew you were under the weight on Saturday but Eric let it go? If so I'd like to know what you would consider to be an allowable overage? Is 10 hp over ok? 15 hp? Where do we draw the line?

[johnbasf]

We should have weighed 3036 with the Forgelines but the scales said 2975. I don't think the numbers were written down wrong I think the scales were set up wrong. I watched Eric run the cord for the right scale through the gap in the left scale on Sunday. I have no idea if this could have caused the problem on Sat. but it sure wouldn't help.

My main problem is with the way the situation was handled. I was told by Eric that I would not be disqualified for only being over by 6.5 hp. Looking back now, that was the wrong decision but I'm not going to look the gift horse in the mouth. Had he disqualified me right there at least I would have had the chance to re-scale the car right away and figure out the problem. When I get an email two days later telling me I was disqualified I have little or no recourse. My only proof now that we didn't add any weight is the fact that Sundays results were even better than Sat.

I will apeal this and see what happens.

 

So you were 61.75 LBS light, that's quite a bit.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Guys - a quick walk thru the 2004 CCR's will answer all your questions.

 

Section 17.8 - Minimum Weight:

Each car that that is checked for minimum weight will be subject to the following policy: Each owner / driver will be given a standard five (5.0) pound leeway under the minimum published weight for their car during the first time the car is weighed for that event (weekend). After the initial weighing, the competitor must meet the exact published weight with zero (0.0) pounds leeway for the remainder of that event. This policy should compensate for any discrepancies between scales, margin of error, and imperfections in ground surfaces. No other tolerance will be given.

 

No tolerance.

 

As for a DQ/penalty....the CCR's also discuss appeals/protests:

 

Section 17.5 - Protests, Request for Action, and Appeals

17.5.1 Protests -

Any entered driver may lodge a protest against another driver disputing the mechanical compliance of their competition vehicle. To lodge a protest, the protestor shall obtain a “Protest Form” from Registration, fill it out, and file it, along with the appropriate fee, with the Race Director. The Race Director may accept the protest, may extend the time allowed, or may reject the protest. For the protest to be valid, it must meet the following conditions:

 

1. Be filed within thirty (30) minutes of the completion of the race.

2. Each part that is being protested must be named specifically.

3. Each part may be considered a separate protest, in terms of fees.

4. Each part listed shall be accompanied by the rule(s) number that it violates.

5. The title of the rulebook must be cited with each rule number.

6. Accepted by the Race Director.

 

You've got 30 minutes after the race, not event, to file your protest. Given that Eric DQ'd a few days after the event/race, consideration should have been given for you to file a protest.

 

Section 17.5 - Protests, Request for Action, and Appeals

17.5.3 Appeals - Regional

 

Any entered driver may appeal any decision made by any Official. The driver must obtain an “Appeal Form” from Registration, fill it out, and file it, along with the appropriate fee, with the Race Director. The Appeal must be filed within the specified time. The Race Director may accept the RFA or may extend the time allowed. The Race Director must accept any appeal regarding his/her own decision, however may choose to reject any other appeal. All appeals made involving the decision of the Race Director shall cause the Race Director to carefully reconsider his/her decision. If appealing driver is not satisfied after the Race Director has reconsidered the matter, then he/she (the driver) shall have the following options:

 

1. Allow the Race Director to form a panel of no less than three (3) people that are acceptable to the appealing driver.

2. Request that the Race Director to forward the Appeal to the Executive Director. The Race Director shall forward a copy of the appeal form, all documentation in the case, all evidence in the case, and his/her written statements to the Executive Director. This information must be sent (postmarked by registered mail or faxed) no later than three (3) business days after the last day of the event. The Race Director may retain the appeal fee until the case is settled, however he/she must return the original appeal form to the appellant driver.

 

Time allowance (endurance races handled separately for time allowances): An appeal must be filed with the Race Director within thirty (30) minutes from the time when the driver was first notified or by the end of the session (if applicable,) which ever allows the driver more time. The Race Director reserves the right to modify these rules as cited in CCR section #21.1. However, the Race Director cannot modify any rule or procedure to interfere with a driver’s right to file an appeal with the Executive Director (National Appeals, section #17.5.4). Appeals based on notification of decisions by mail or fax shall be given a period of ten (10) days from the postmark, or the date of the fax.

 

Note: The section specifically allows any entered driver to appeal to the Executive Director any decision made by the Race Director including rejection of an appeal, and even the original decision of an appeal.

 

In appeals not involving the Race Director, the Race Director may take any action deemed necessary including overturning, upholding, or modifying the original decision and/or increasing and/or decreasing the penalties. This specifically allows the Race Director the power to increase a penalty, particularly when an appeal is not well founded, or lacks the presentation of evidence based on the rules, past precedence, etc.

 

We've dealt with much of this in Texas recently. Another section of the CCR's to keep in mind.....

 

Section 23.1.3 - Knowledge and Possession of the Rules

All drivers must know all of the rules, especially those pertaining to safety items. Additionally, all drivers must have the appropriate rule books in their possession, or have immediate access to them at all times.

[johnbasf]

Adam, what kind of protest could he have filed after that long of time?

 

P.S. Mr. Brown I am not after you at all.

[johnbasf]

Does "race director" mean the AI director in this case?

[Adam Ginsberg]

John - given that Eric DQ'd him 2 days after the event, he should have been given the additional time to file an appeal, which I mentioned in my post.

 

Race director is the Event Director:

 

American Iron 2004 rules, section 8.6:

Any decision by NASA officials during an event may be appealed to the Event Director. Appeals must be made immediately following the official's decision in writing by filing an "Appeal Form" with the Event Director. The Event Director's decision shall be final.