PeanutinCA Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Dudes, I know there was a recent rumbling on headers, so I'd like a ruling. They are legal by the rules. Is that going to change? Can that change now? It was suggested to counter a "claim" that a certain car had an excessive amount of horse power. But, remove headers from that car and take away some power, you still take away the same power from anyone else with headers and consequently the gap in hp numbers could/would remain the same. Doesn't really help any! My guys tell me headers (non-stock) will help with some top end power. I place I beleive to be lacking? I've watched videos and can hear an increase in 5th gear revs on others cars that doesn't occur for me? It's cool in 4th, but not in 5th? So, with the question above in mind. Does anyway want to admit if they are running headers and if so what? Anything good out there? Or was it found that headers didn't help much? Trying to think back to those posts by Joe and others in the know? I'll do a search. Cheers, P.Dilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Dilly, Headers and the entire exhaust are "Free" Which means you can put in anything you would like. Some guys have run with stock cast iron, stock tubular, Bursch, MSDS and none of these cars have seem in any way faster. I have heard rumor's about a couple headers that actually provide some hp. Never seen them or seen actual hp numbers from them. So right now I see no need to change that rulling. PS... I don't believe that any form of coating will improve hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I think Dill'y concern comes from a possible rule change in the near future. Tim what's up? Us guys are looking to do stuff to get those last few HP out of our cars. We don't want to do something only to find they're not allowed in a few months!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 18, 2004 Author Share Posted July 18, 2004 Eric is right regarding why the question. But after reading the info from Joe, I'm not sure headers are worth it? When my mechanic and muffler shop say headers will help the top end, does that mean, possibly, no extra hp, but better top end curve? I'm talkng the difference between going flat rpm's in 5th or getting a slight increase in RPM down those long straights? I'm trying to learn the differences, you know us computer nerds! So, is a little extra top end not necessarily mean any extra hp? Cheers, Silly.Dilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 In spec karting, we have a claiming rule. If you think somebody has a superior motor, you pay them $2500 after the race, and it is yours... This keeps everyone from putting a ton of money into a motor they could lose. I think having SOME fool proof method of keeping a level playing field is important to the success of this class.... Could this work? We enlist 3 independent dyno shops to do dynos. One in LA, one in OC and one in SD. Once a quarter, (every 4 months) each car has to have a dyno. If the car has over 140hp, it gets a weight penalty... The dyno shop would take the VIN of the car and serial of the engine block..... Probably wouldn't work, but there must be something...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 I think you can see if someone's engine is superior? Sometimes anyway. Plus, you have to compare apples to apples. I haven't explored the engine performance area yet myself. So I'm comparing a stock engine (which they must be of course) against engines that have been dyno tuned, maybe headers or exhasut tuning, chip tuning etc. For myself as example, we just cut the cat and muffler out and put on a glass pack because my original muffler broke off and couldn't be repaired. Plus it saved some weight anyway. Oh, they did check the CO level because they noticed it was running too lean. I think that's partially why it ran so hot previously? Apparently as they get old they get a little out of kilter, people should check this if they can? Wasn't hard to check. Interesting to note, my car would have passed emissions by a numbers standard, without the cat. But, I thought I heard sometimes you can go backwards pulling cats and changing mufflers if you lose back pressure? Anyone have knowledge on that? Your idea of dyno shop testing would be good, except for differences between the locations that would be all too possible. That's interesting about the engine buying in the spec karts. You get kinda attached to your engine, I hate for someone to buy it out from under me! DOH. Cheers, P.Dilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 The glass pack could be costing you hp. I'd preffer stock myself. In the early day's Paul B did some testing with stock tube headers. No exhaust from just before stock cat weld (all gone completely) vs test pipe and stock muffler. No chang in hp. I had a straight pipe, but ditched it after than dyno test. Much easier for me to determine engine noises with less exhaust sounds. BTW... I am not in favor of changing the current exhaust rules. I see no need to. I don' t like claimer rules since while my motor might be just and average parts car special, I built it myself. That means I trust it and how it was build. I know I did right and I took the time to do it. No there is nothing special in it, but just my time and desire to torque every nut and bolt to spec in the proper sequence and to make sure it was perfectly clean when building. I really don't want someone to take that from me and give my xx cash. Fine I get some money, but who is going to replace the time I took to build it to my standards. So I can take my $$ go to the junk yard for another engine and rebuit it. Sure may be I have the $$ for all the parts, but what about the next month or two it will take for me to rebuild a new junkyard one? Or how about the time with my family that I will loose doing it over again. Nope... We have rules about cheating. We have discussed them here before. There are no simple answers to this. Pride is really about it. Do you want to win fairly or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I agree! I don't want to sell my motor!! $2500 wouldn't be right anyway. Those of us who don't/can't do all of our own work need a shop and you can't get a rebuild at a shop for $2500. Tyler is selling a motor for $3000 plus you'll have to swap it out and replace a few little bits so by the time your done your looking at $4500 then if you want a clutch while you were there and other stuff $$$$. Joe's point about it being his blood/sweat and tears is part of the pride. Plus you'd miss an event or 2 and thats just not right. Lets say driver x has an old motor and driver y just did a full rebuild and now driver x can buy his motor? No way!!! It would be easier to have x just go to y's shop for the same treatment! Dyno's are O.K. but there are differences and we all seem to be getting about the same HP. (At least the top cars!) Cheaters seem to get weeded out eventually so why bother! I'm saving my $$$ for track time!!! 1 or 2 more test and tune days and I'll be in the 1:38's at least. I went from 1:46 to 1:42 to 1:40 to 1:39 and soon I'll be doing 1:38- 1:37 Joe has always said get your butt in the car and just drive!!! I like the rules the way they are also. We have yet to see proof of a car that has over 140 HP and still meets our rules. I'm sure some will come but then we just need to make sure it's legal! Our cars with 88 motors are still just making 132- 134 HP. I would think that if they shaved the head and dyno tuned headers/chips 140+ would be possible and they'd still be legal. You can't stop someone from spending $$ just because someone else can't keep up so long as they are legal. If that was the case then we need one shop to build all our motors and seal them then they'd all be the same. Does anyone want to have to pay $3500 for a new motor to to be legal? And what lucky shop will get all of this new bussiness and would they be able to produce the 50 motors we need for our series? Nope lets just leave it alone and go racing! No real issues have come up yet!! I for one am just going to get faster by spending time on the track. My shop just says if that car can do it, so can yours!!! And they're right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 I don't think he was serious about buying others engines. Just highlighting what another series does. Hell, I'm not selling my engine. You guys would find the illegal cam and NOS injectors. Joe, why would/could the glass pack cost me power? Dilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packfill Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Dillan is correct, I was not advocating a claiming rule in this class. I was merely using it as an example of a simple spec rule that works. $2500 buys a sealed, professionally built kart motor. Clearly this is not the case for 944's. I was just trying to open the discussion on a rule that would be just as effective. With the claiming rule, not only can someone take your motor that you spent $$ on, but they can use it a week later to beat you!!! NOONE wants to be beat by their own motor..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 No problem! I don't want to get beat with my motor either! It's bad enough when they do it with theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Joe, why would/could the glass pack cost me power? Dilly. I beleive stock mufflers are quite efficient for our cars. Glasspacks tend to be cheap V8 Stuff and not always as good as stock. I have no definite proof and know that some guys run Flowmasters will seemingly good results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Guys I guess I got in a Tizzy about motor since I just pull the motor from my spec car and plan on putting in fresh main and rod bearings. Man it is alot of work to pull a motor in the summer time in Az and to do what amounts to a nearly full rebuild (crank needs to come out). So I'd hate to have me finish the motor and then have some one take it from me. BTW... New beings get me Zero hp, but can possibly reduce the chance of a rod bearing failure by keep tighter clearances on the bearings this reduce the oil leakage. This will allow the bearings to survive with a little less oil flow, but tighter mains will flow more oil to the rods. I have 26+ days one this motor since Jan 2003. This prevention could save me looking for yet another block! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 No need to change the rules, guys. What I was talking about was ....... if the new Anderson engine is making 10-15 more hp legally, that would throw the series off balance. You need a chip, higher C/R, and headers to get that good hp. What's the simplest, cheapest way to decrease performance in an engine like that? You can't verify the chip. Replacing the head would cost $$ also. So take away the non-stock headers and see where that leaves you with respect to hp. If that's still not enough to bring the engine back in line with the others, take away the shaved head or limit the C/R ratio to that of highest stock level, 10.2 to 1. These were ideas only. This series can't be allowed to become an engine builder's class. It's a driver's class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Tim, Personally I could go for a 10.2:1 CR limit. Realisticly we can't go below 10.2 since we need to allow some for the two piston types. 11:1 may be a bit too much. The "other" 944 guys redid their rules for 10.2:1 max and thing it is smart. There is a hugh problem outhere. There are alot of shaved heads that may be over the 10.2:1 limit. What to do? Tell everyone they need a new head? This gets touchy and so FAR there are no super cars out there so why change? I completely agree that this is a LOW COST DRIVER'S SERIES. No place for "race prepped" engines here. I still thinking that the current rules are good such that any overly high hp level could only be achieved by illegal means. Even so if some finds a clear advantage within the rules there are a few options. 1) If it is cheap allow other to find out and this level the playing field by raising the bar. (BTW... $200-300 for 10hp is pretty "cheap") 2) If it is expensive or can't be done on all chassis then the rules should be change to limit this to level the playing field by maintaing the bar or at worst lowering. If it is clearly illegal... ban the mother... and his shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Don't make any changes. If you put the CR at 10.2:1 then the 88 motors will not have any room for error. 11:1 is not that bad and pretty much maximizes anything you can do. I still feel if all AMW did was headers, shave and chip then more power (so to speak) to them. The only way you'll be able to make 100% sure the cars are exactly the same is to have 1 place build all of the cars. Plus no proof was ever given that they produce more HP. AMW has yet to beat you. Joe beats you with a car that has less HP than you. If all of our cars are within 15 HP when the motors are done. If you want to do something easy then make a HP/weight ratio. High HP cars add weight, low ones remove weight like the SE-R's. I just don't like changing the rules just because someone MAY have done something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 What happened to the AMW dyno? Although, that car is sold now right? My earlier point was that, if you blanket change no headers, then that just puts everyone else the "same" amount of potential hp behind the engine you are trying to bring back into line. So that would not work? P.Silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASADan Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Stock muffler minus cat = most HP... Stock head cut to stock specs = most HP... Tuned AF meter and stock chip = most HP... (or pay for a chip with untuned AF meter) Tuned driver and the right suspension = a winning combination! Spend your money on track days and be rewarded! Dan Founder of 944-Spec and descent driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASADan Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I forgot to mention, add a really worn set of Toyos to the mix for qualifying, they are really expensive, cause you have to factor in all the hours spent wearing them down on the track! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Dylan, I'm not sure the header results will bear out your fears............ If you keep to stock headers, you'll have a nice flat power curve like most of us. If you spend money on Bursch or MSDS headers, you may get more peak hp, but weaken the curve elsewhere. The thing is........when you tune the chip to optimize the power created by the C/R change and the flow of the headers, I believe you CAN get more hp. If you take away the headers from that same max'd out engine, I believe you're killing more hp than when you take away non-stock headers from an otherwise stock engine. Make sense? I would want to see back to back dyno runs before I switched to non-stock headers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Also, yes, the # 69 car was sold to Mike Liera, one of the original 2 partners in AMW. Mike will be AX'ing the car almost immediately. Hopefully, the car will now be a regular entry in the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Yeah, I think I'm passing on the headers based on a wealth of information from Joe. My guys are probably giving me general knowledge, not 944 based/specific knowledge. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Joe is good for that............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkwright Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I'm really surprised at all the discussion of the "assumed" power of the AMW car and how to penalize it. I think David Ray's comments about power (which was a joke he played) really got to Timmee. The car has never been to the dyno and likely never will. It's new owner just wants to get seat time so he can go racing. I've driven the car a few times and it's fun and fast. John did a really good job building the engine. He took the time and effort to match components, check tolerances, and other details like that. The car had no advantage over Benbow at Ca Speedway in March. He caught me everytime on the front straight and banking where I was flat out. He was able to duck down on the inside as well. I know this is partially due to the ability to draft there. Point is I could not pull away enough to break the draft. No power to do so. The car went to WSIR with POC where David finished second in the exact same configuration as it left Ca Speedway. As far as taking away headers, that's more than it sounds like. The AMW car has headers and a custom 3" exhaust that goes with them. The entire system cost well over $500.00. It's legal and paid for, so why should it be removed?? The entire system would have to be replaced. AMW car # 2 is on the way. It will be built exactly the way the first car was built. Hopefully, it will have some enhancements that were learned from the building of the first car. Whoever buys it will have a car that was built from the ground up to be a race car all WITHIN THE RULES. I know most guys take a car and strip it down to be a spec racer. That's great and it's good for getting guys into the series on less budget. However, if a guy wants to buy a completely rebuilt car then he can. That's what AMW is producing. Besides, the AMW car has never won an official NASA race. Why all the fuss?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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