johnbasf Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Each NASA region should supply a Dynojet each race weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 15, 2004 Members Share Posted September 15, 2004 Also, Any competitor that wants to protest a car should put up the $$ for the dyno pull and a NASA Protest fee. If the car is deemed LEGAL then the protestor pays for the dyno pull session and the protest fee If the car is deemed ILLEGAL then the car's owner pays for the dyno pull session and the protest fee. NASA Officials can dyno and/or weigh any car at any time during the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I like the idea of the protest $, but I think we can already do this in Ohio/Indiana region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 15, 2004 Members Share Posted September 15, 2004 As a regional director I can vouch that many factors that influence whether a dynojet dyno can be at every event. The dyno owners certainly make a tremendous amount of money at Drag Racing events where everyone want's their dyno #'s - but most NASA weekends will hardly keep them busy 100%. So when there is activity in the area at Drag strips you'll find it hard to get a dyno to come to an event. If the AI/AIX racers are willing to support the cost, then so be it! director hat OFF> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbasf Posted September 15, 2004 Author Share Posted September 15, 2004 Also, Any competitor that wants to protest a car should put up the $$ for the dyno pull and a NASA Protest fee. If the car is deemed LEGAL then the protestor pays for the dyno pull session and the protest fee If the car is deemed ILLEGAL then the car's owner pays for the dyno pull session and the protest fee. NASA Officials can dyno and/or weigh any car at any time during the weekend. Adding more cost for the racers doesn't seem right. It's a NASA series let NASA pay for the dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I think we all realize that it would cost major bucks to get a trackside dyno. At least I don't think we are close here in Texas. I got no skin with NASA sealing my hood/computer and telling me to report to the dyno on a random basis (put a maximum on it please) - as long as NASA pays for the dyno pull(s). If a competitor wants to see some numbers, well that's already spelled out in the protest procedures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z28racergirl Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I like the competitor(s) paying vs. NASA. I believe that as AI/X/CMC racers, we are a community, and that NASA has only provided the neighborhood for us to play in. If I contest Videtto, for example, I believe that instead of racing against everyone, I now have a beef with his car only. NASA is no longer involved, except as the third, "judicial" party. Kinda like a mediator. I would like to see before each event, that there is a local dyno already located and set aside for the race weekend. I know there's one at Buttonwillow, but other tracks may not have one on site. I'd like to know ahead of time where the "official" dyno will be, since it's my responsibility to bring a "legal" car to the event. Thanks, Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 There are issues with dyno's. Case in point: at Beave Run our car dynoed over 11hp less on day to the next. I know that weather is related but that is what the correction factor is for. If you ask dynojet they will tell you that there is absolutely dyno variance on every machine they make. Some of you will say that each car should run a cushion, well ladies and gents, we do. In fact we run over 100lbs of cushion but that is quickly taken away at a ratio of 9.5lbs:1hp. We need to address the fact that the dyno will not always read the same thing and trying to keep a car legal day to day on the same weekend with no changes to the engine/computer/ignition is like chasing a ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 I think there should be a dyno at every track. I saw a portable at Thunderhill once two years ago, but never again. And if somebody is using a restrictor, NASA should be logging that information and making sure that the restrictor is in place at all times. Get some lead tamper seals and wire it in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 (edited) I think a portable dyno is a good idea, but it should be used on a 'surprise' basis - simply to keep racers honest Edited September 17, 2004 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Something that has come up recently ( like, as of today ) is the brand of dyno. Currently, AI ( and CMC for that matter ) specifically mention the use of a DynoJet dynomometer. However, there are other models out there....specifically, the DynaPack brand. Has anyone ever done back-to-back dyno runs using the DynaPack vs. the DynoJet? If so, how close were they to one another? I'm in favor of "surprise" dyno visits to keep the competitors honest. Posted as a fellow racer, not an Assistant Director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 (edited) Having just done the hood sealing and tamperproof tape routine in our region, I think that's a much better way to go. Dynos at the track tend to add another dimension of busy-ness, tension and quite frankly, start cutting into our BBQ time! We've also heard all the complaints about dyno variance. Official dyno sheets are supposed to be completed before the first points race of the season. The expectation is that your HP/TQ has not changed since that time! "Oh...you think maybe your HP changed with that new .700 lift cam, 75# injector setup and a new EEC tune???" Get a new official dynosheet! All competitors are subject to the rules at all times, including sealing hoods and requesting a dyno recertification. I truly think many folks are trying to light the 9.5:1 candle at both ends and are getting burned either on the dyno or the scales. Official dynosheet HP & TQ #s should determine your vehicles minimum weight. (period)..not today's weight should determine today's HP!!! That's a fast moving target! The random engine sealing sends a competitor back to his "home" Dynojet where the original "official" dyno sheet was produced. Complaints about dyno variance are minimized, since that's where you went last time! When I'm at the racetrack...I like to be racing. When I'm at a dyno facility...I like to by dynoing. Personally, I don't think we need to mix the two. I recognize the issue of who pays and I'm indifferent whether the racer or the challenger pays, but I don't think it should be NASA. I also recognize some limitations to prevent Directors Gone Wild who seal engines after every event. The element of surprise is the only thing that is going to support a good Honor System. (I'll post our idea of the declared dyno decal separately.) -=- Todd (The Director not the Racer) Edited September 16, 2004 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 If they have random checks, then yeah, that would work. Seal a few cars and take them up the road. At Sears Point, we could have gone up the highway to RPM. I had brought that idea up earlier in the year so it could be arranged ahead of time and I had indeed heard that there was going to be a dyno at this race. As far as who pays, I have always said that whomever wants the car on the dyno puts up the money. If the car is legit, then the protestor pays the bill. If the car happens to be over the limit, then the car owner pays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 The dyno thing can be tricky. As has been said before, it varies from dyno to dyno, and with the ratio we are dealing with there is not much room for error. Air density and altitude can also be a factor. If you are running a carburator it becomes even more stressful. With this many variables it is completely unfair to surprise check a car without having the dyno available to the competitors the friday and saturday of the race weekend to dial in thier car. That really becomes a hassle because it will pretty much be mandatory to do this every race weekend. That adds cost and takes away precious testing time. Not to mention some may not even be able to do this simply because only so many cars can dyno in one day. To have to travel to the dyno should be out of the question. More time taken away=really discourageing racers and they may stop coming back. Furthermore, the dyno can easily be cheated. I would personally like the dyno deal to be replaced with some sort of parameters/limits/specs for the motor and maybe only a couple of dyno tests a year. This can be complicated also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Then the subject of how many times can a car be dynoed during a weekend. As stated previously the top 3 cars at Beaverun were dynoed once per day and they were ready to dyno us again on Sunday except the scales were broken so it really would have been for nothing. Additionally our hp and tq numbers varied enough from day to day that we believed it would make a difference on the track. I can understand dynoing us once per weekend right when we get there but to continually do it all weekend is just adding agrevation that isn't necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 NASA wants to dyno my car? Then NASA pays - PERIOD. I really don't understand how it could be otherwise or why they don't recognize that it is a major pain in the behind to have my hood sealed (can't work on the car), have to schedule a dyno pull with a NASA official present (that would be on a weekend because I have a day job), and go down and get it done (there goes some of my free time). I'm all for surprise inspections and dyno sessions, but if I'm legal on the dyno then get your money out and pay for the pulls. I'm not a full-time racer or crew chief. I don't enjoy giving my money away or wasting my time because someone else or some other entity wants to validate something I already have attested is true. I recognize that the HP/TQ rules are the heart and soul of AI, I abide by those rules and anyone who thinks otherwise can file a protest and have me dyno'd - at THEIR EXPENSE. Why can't NASA do the same???? If I'm the only one who feels this way, then I'll go along with my region on it but I'd also ask that a LIMIT be placed on the number of these suprises PRIOR TO THE SEASON. Let's say - TWO? I'll just have to factor that into the cost of racing AI I guess. I'm not conceding the point, but Todd and Adam get to deal with the likes of me and every once in a great while I have to let them know I will cooperate otherwise they'll give up on me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Another footnote I want to add- There is NO reason that a competitor has to 'dial' in their car to be EXACTLY 9.5:1 - there are winning competitors in the series that aren't even close to the limits. Rumor has it that one of the fastest out there is close to 11:1 !!! I would honestly say that even with the variance factor that ALL competitors should simply have their cars dialed back to accomodate fluctuations in air temp, gravity, humidity, moon beams, whatever you want to blame for your HP/TQ being too high.... I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I can vouch that consistency AND lack of HP getting me to the top of the AIX standings MORE than once... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Jim, While I agree with you the problem I have is how much do you "dial it back" then? As the series gets more and more competitive people are going to run right to the 9.5:1 rule. We gave ourselves 10 hp plus 30 lbs and the dyno varied by 11 hp day to day. That's a 100 lb difference which can definitely be noted on the track. How frustrated would you be if you were dynoed on Saturday and were legal and Sunday you were DQ'ed because suddenly you had an additional 10 hp and NOTHING was changed on the vehicle? That's a good way to drive away competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Mark, You've answered your own question - I would say dial it back 20 hp or 150-200 lbs - you would still be close to 9.5:1 and still be very competitive. The key point is: If all drivers are forced to measure on the same dyno and scales then it is a moot point - everyone has to meet the same ratio for those circumstances - that day... So if you were over 11hp then everyone was over 11hp that day, maybe there was a sudden lunar HP increase that day (please note humorous intent) - but if you are that close - you risk being DQ'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Jim, Your solution doesn't fix the problem but its trying to get around it. Ask anyone running in a spec class if they would be willing to drive around with an additional just in case 150-200 lbs and see what the answer is. I would MUCH rather have our cars dynoed at the beginning of the weekend and then sealed. Then if you (as a competitor) decide to make any changes and break any of the seals you leave yourself open to being re-dynoed. I WILL NOT allow what happened at Beaverun to happen to us again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbasf Posted September 16, 2004 Author Share Posted September 16, 2004 The key point is: If all drivers are forced to measure on the same dyno and scales then it is a moot point - everyone has to meet the same ratio for those circumstances - that day... So NASA would pick up the tab and have a dyno at the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 So NASA would pick up the tab and have a dyno at the track? I think we already established a consensus that the dyno should be used as a surprise element to keep racers honest and that the protestor/protestee would be paying for it... Not sure what your point is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Jim - I'm not sure if we really said that or maybe I missed something. Does this mean that the only way we get dynoed it if someone protests us in which case the person initiating the protest would have to put up $100 protest fee plus $75 dyno fee? So NASA would never dyno us? I'm just asking here...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 So NASA would pick up the tab and have a dyno at the track? I think we already established a consensus that the dyno should be used as a surprise element to keep racers honest and that the protestor/protestee would be paying for it... Not sure what your point is? No, we haven't established such a consensus. Todd Covini posted that he thinks the racer should pay for a NASA mandated dyno pull, I disagree entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Jim - I'm not sure if we really said that or maybe I missed something. Does this mean that the only way we get dynoed it if someone protests us in which case the person initiating the protest would have to put up $100 protest fee plus $75 dyno fee? So NASA would never dyno us? I'm just asking here...... Actually, NASA officials might be the 'protestors' - and in which case they would pay all the fees... but this makes it a more equitable situation where the racers themselves don't have to feel powerless to demand a dyno pull from a competitor. They can simply put up the funds and request the dyno pull and the NASA officials would be mediators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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