2009 TT Rules and Car Classification Forms

[Greg G.]

The 2009 TT Rules and Car Classification Forms were posted on-line this past week. v6.1 Jan 1, 2009

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Classification-form.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Classification-form-SUR.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AtomicRacer]

I would like to get a clarification regarding this rule:

 

"FORCED INDUCTION VEHICLES will add an additional five (+5) points to the total

number of modification points to determine the final competition class. (Forced induction

vehicles that have been classed or re-classed based on Dyno testing are exempt from this

additional five (+5) point assessment.)"

 

I have a 2008 Subaru STI with a base class of TTB** AND a +5 penalty for having a turbo.

 

I am not clear on how I can get my car classed or re-classed to remove the +5 penalty.

 

Regards,

 

-Paul

[Joshua]

I am not clear on how I can get my car classed or re-classed to remove the +5 penalty.

From the rules: "Individual cars may be approved for classing or re-classing by the National TT Director

using the vehicle’s actual dynamometer measured maximum chassis horsepower and torque, and

the minimum competition weight of the vehicle (with driver)."

 

This does not guarantee that your car will be reclassed to your benefit. Based on wgt/HP, you may be reclassed higher than your current class (e.g. TTA instead of TTB**)

 

Also from the new rules, "Dynamometer tests must be conducted on a ... Dynojet, Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, or Dynapack for AWD cars, in a

commercial facility that offers dynamometer testing as part of their business and is open to the public."

[obzezzed350]

I thought it was dynojet only? Mustangs read 10% lower from what I have read...

[TurboShortBus]

I thought it was dynojet only? Mustangs read 10% lower from what I have read...

TT rules, page 7:

Dynojet 248 or 244 for 2WD vehicles.

Dynojet, Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, or Dynapack for AWD vehicles.

 

Mark

[AtomicRacer]

I am not clear on how I can get my car classed or re-classed to remove the +5 penalty.

From the rules: "Individual cars may be approved for classing or re-classing by the National TT Director

using the vehicle’s actual dynamometer measured maximum chassis horsepower and torque, and

the minimum competition weight of the vehicle (with driver)."

 

This does not guarantee that your car will be reclassed to your benefit. Based on wgt/HP, you may be reclassed higher than your current class (e.g. TTA instead of TTB**)

 

Also from the new rules, "Dynamometer tests must be conducted on a ... Dynojet, Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, or Dynapack for AWD cars, in a

commercial facility that offers dynamometer testing as part of their business and is open to the public."

 

As it stands now with 3550lb weight and 295awhp on a Mustang Dyno my power to weight is 12.68 (5 door, AWD and 275 tires). That is TTC territory, not exactly leaping into TTA.

 

-Paul

[Greg G.]

As AWD Dyno availability is limited, NASA Officials may use any of the four AWD Dynos

listed above. AWD drivers need to be especially careful that their cars will be compliant on any official Dyno that is available.

 

Also, with 295 to the wheels (on a Mustang Dyno that generally do read at least 10% low), it will not help you to re-class by Dyno.

[JROO-VW]

I'm curious where the provision about reprogramming the oem chip or using an aftermarket chip went... could they not enforce it so dropped it? Being a lower hp NA car I was always curious how people in the same class that might have a turbo do in comparison. thx

[Greg G.]

It is now in the list of No-Points Modifications. It was very difficult to enforce as you mentioned.

[sperkins]

Thanks Greg.

[Cobra4B]

Looks like the Panoz would fall into TTS

[turboice]

"FORCED INDUCTION VEHICLES will add an additional five (+5) points to the total

number of modification points to determine the final competition class. (Forced induction

vehicles that have been classed or re-classed based on Dyno testing are exempt from this

additional five (+5) point assessment.)"

 

What brought this about anyway? Why isn't the OEM turbo included in the base classing?

[Iraceonroad]

I have a question.

 

I have been reading the rules and I can not find where it says if my 96 eclipse spyder has to have a rollcage or not. if so does it have to be weld in? or does bolt on work?

 

I want to take some driving classes, but I want to know if I need more safety gear for it.

 

*note: This is my Daily Driver

[kbrew8991]

I've only seen one of those that was HPDE/TT'd and he had a rollbar added. Not sure if it was bolt-in or weld-in. Alot of covertibles do not have signifigant enough rollover protection for track use from the factory.

 

I'd get with your regional tech guy for more info on what exactly your car may need - typically if it meets the minimum safety for HPDE it meets the minimum safety for TT

[TurboShortBus]

I have a question.

I have been reading the rules and I can not find where it says if my 96 eclipse spyder has to have a rollcage or not. if so does it have to be weld in? or does bolt on work?

I want to take some driving classes, but I want to know if I need more safety gear for it.

*note: This is my Daily Driver

Please refer to section 11.4.7 of the 2009 NASA CCR, on page 43. Here is an excerpt:

 

11.4.7 Roll Bars

All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury during a roll-over. The roll bar should be able to withstand the compressional forces involved in supporting the full weight of the car. The roll bar’s main hoop should extend the full width of the car (except certain cars that have been approved by NASA). The main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure shall be present (i.e. should be Mandrel bends). All welds should be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref:(15.6.15)]. All cars with roll bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases where the driver’s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22. The material and minimums are as follows: (All cars with full roll cages should conform to the applicable sections found in section #15.0.)

 

Vehicle weight DOM or ERW

Under 2000 lbs. 1.50" x .120”

2001 - 3500 lbs. 1.75" x .120"

Over 3500 lbs. 2.00" x .120"

 

Vehicle weight Alloy (CM)

Under 1500 lbs. 1.375" x .095”

1501 - 2500 lbs. 1.625" x .095"

Over 2500 lbs. 2.000" x .095"

IMO, the use of the word "should" in the first sentence can leave the interpretation wide open (compared to using "shall"), but I would recommend that you plan to install a roll bar.

 

As an HPDE tech inspector for NASA-Florida, I can tell you that we require some sort of rollover protection for convertibles. If the vehicle comes OEM with some sort of rollover protection, then we generally consider that to be sufficient. However, if a car has no OEM rollover protection, then we require that a roll bar is installed. Bear in mind that it's a roll bar, not necessarily a full roll cage.

 

As Ken suggested, check with your regional HPDE tech director for their input.

 

Personally, I would recommend some sort of 4-point roll bar (main hoop and rear kickers) for any convertible, on track or otherwise. A bolt-in style roll bar from a manufacturer such as Autopower should be sufficient, but again, check with your regional HPDE tech director to confirm this.

 

Also, note that you posted this question in the Time Trial forum, and it seems like you might be more geared for the HPDE forum at first glance. Fortunately, there are experienced people in here as well.

 

Mark

[jason]

Advice you're not going to want to hear:

If you're seriously planning on starting to do track events, get a different car.

 

I, against the advice of those with more experience, attempted to track a convertible for years. I spent a small fortune and many hours making and keeping my car legal for ever tighter requirements. Every region, every club, and every track has their own rules concerning convertibles, rollbars, cages, arm restraints etc. Often, the rule is: pay upfront and bring the car to tech and we'll take a look at it and decide if it is ok.

 

Save yourself many $$$, many hours, and many psi of bloodpressure.

[Iraceonroad]

Thank you all for your answers. If I understand correctly it's better to just get like a 300zx (90-96) or like a Eclipse GSX if I want to run on the trace for hobby? I can pick either of those cars up for around $5K and still have some money left over for upgrades and safety gear. I can't afford the WRX's or the Rx-7's.

 

Last question. Whats HPDE?

[eMINI]

Last question. Whats HPDE?

HPDE stands for High Performance Driver's Education. It's a program that enables drivers to develop their driving skills and prepares them to move up to competition. In a nutshell, it's you in your car with an instructor in the right-side seat being coached on the what, when, how and why of performance driving. The good programs also have a strong classroom component. Drivers progress through levels as their skills grow.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Guest

[TurboShortBus]

Last question. Whats HPDE?

HPDE is where you will start, long before you get involved in Time Trial. Information:

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html

 

Please post your relevant questions in the HPDE forum:

 

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1

 

Mark

Edited July 15, 2009 by Guest

[turboice]

"FORCED INDUCTION VEHICLES will add an additional five (+5) points to the total

number of modification points to determine the final competition class. (Forced induction

vehicles that have been classed or re-classed based on Dyno testing are exempt from this

additional five (+5) point assessment.)"

 

What brought this about anyway? Why isn't the OEM turbo included in the base classing?

It is helpful sometimes to understand why rules are what they are - this was an addition to the ruleset. Why is the OEM HP and curb weight not sufficient for classing, why an additional assessment for an OEM car?

[kbrew8991]

Ed - there are many threads on that topic, as well as threads on how to get around it legally via reclassification using dyno & weight. Bring some popcorn and read up.

[Grant]

Could anyone help me clairify a few things with the 2009 rules?

ROLL BARS/CAGES:
2)   One or more bars that are welded to the chassis (directly or with a plate) anywhere farther
      than 6” from the end of a tube where it terminates at a plate +2

I'm having trouble visualizing what this rule is describing. To me it sounds like this rule is penalizing bars which are welded to the chassis away from the main cage structure. So as long as your cage is all one structure, you don't take points here?

 

Ram air? Do I take +1 points for this in a car dynoed and classified by weight/power? Obviously its not something that will show gains on a dyno.

 

Adjustable brake bias? Would an in-car adjustment take any points? If so, could I just remove the knob for TT competition?

 

Thanks for any help.

[TurboShortBus]

Could anyone help me clairify a few things with the 2009 rules?

ROLL BARS/CAGES:
2)   One or more bars that are welded to the chassis (directly or with a plate) anywhere farther than 6” from the end of a tube where it terminates at a plate +2

I'm having trouble visualizing what this rule is describing. To me it sounds like this rule is penalizing bars which are welded to the chassis away from the main cage structure. So as long as your cage is all one structure, you don't take points here?

I'm often stupid, but I'll jump in here for lack of any other answers (and because Grant emailed me directly about it).

 

This was recently discussed in a general thread in the NASA-Florida forum (scroll down a bit):

 

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29203&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=160

 

I see this particular rule applying to roll cages that have their upper main hoops welded to the stock B-pillars further than 6" from the base plates, A-pillar bars welded to the stock A-pillars further than 6" from the base plates, etc. where they are not specifically permitted per the CCR (Porsche 914s, Pontiac Fieros, etc.). You are fine with the standard 6 chassis attachment points per the CCR, along with the 7th and 8th points at the front wheelwells or firewall per the CCR, and you can have bars going from point to point within the cage itself. Also, bars are allowed to touch the chassis further than 6" from the base plates, but they cannot be welded or otherwise attached to the chassis at these points. I know of several cage builders who follow this practice, and it's perfectly legal at this time.

 

The way I see it, if your cage is welded or attached to the stock chassis structure other than at the 6 typical floor plate locations (plus the 2 optional ones at the front wheelwells/firewall), then you will be assessed points per 2) above.

 

But, I could be wrong.

 

Mark

[Grant]

Thanks, looks like I'll definitely be taking that +2.

 

(Pics of my cage are here, if anyone cares)

[TurboShortBus]

I think that a specific example of what Roll Cage rule 2) is talking about would help to provide some clarification.

Roll Cages

6 or 8-point roll cage designs constructed per the NASA CCR may be utilized without a TT modification point assessment. Additional bars and/or attachment points within the driver’s compartment that exceed the allowances in the CCR are also permitted. The following roll cage designs are permitted but will be assessed points as follows:

1) One or more bars that penetrate the front bulkhead/firewall +2

2) One or more bars that are welded to the chassis (directly or with a plate) anywhere farther than 6” from the end of a tube where it terminates at a plate +2

For instance, does Grant's tube near the lower left of this photo that connects the passenger door bar to the stock rocker sill take +2 points per 2) above? This tube certainly does not fit the description of 1), and may or may not fit the description of 2), depending on what 2) is trying to accomplish.

 

When I think of Roll Cage rule 2), I immediately think of this, although other scenarios (such as Grant's above) could apply. It's a photo of a Koni Challenge Mustang that has a plate connecting the A-pillar roll cage bar to the stock unibody A-pillar.

 

Mark