swhiteh3 Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 If we really want to be a pro series, we need to put on close races that keep people's attention. Every pro series around works hard to make the battle for the lead last until the very last lap into the very last corner. So, how about this penalty - Any competitor winning a race in his class (assuming at least three competitors finish the race) by more than five seconds is put on a three event probation. Every major pro series out there will quickly work to squash any competitor, even if they're legal, who stinks up the show by running away with a victory. Photo finishes are in the best interest of the series. Okay, now that I've proposed a clearly silly and implausible anti-Griswold legislation..... How about the Gentilozzi style "competitive yellows", where one full course yellow flag is thrown per race at the RD discretion to bunch the field back up for the final sprint?? Seriously, how can we make the racing closer? No one wants to watch a race that's a runaway. AI has some great racing, but AIX is like an open lapping session, and frankly, it steals attention from the AI race. I, for one, am tired and bored of races where the only excitement I get is when I start from the back, and I still finish 2nd.... Damn you Chris! There a lot of talk here that AIX should be truly "open", and we should allow a wide variety of very fast cars, and I agree in principal. But the truly fast cars can really stink up the show. Now I don't want to get into the amatuer vs. pro racing arguments, and the sponsorship discussions and all that crap here. My point here is to talk about close racing, how it benefits the competitors, the spectators, and the series. And to talk about how we can get there from where we are now. My hats off to the lead guys in AI by the way, who have close battles every race. You're probably having more fun than I am. It's pretty sad when I have times during a race weekend where I wish I was driving a SpecMiata, simply because I know I'd be in a battle every lap of every session - whether it's for 1st or 20th position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 For those reading my first post, I was, of course, not seriously suggesting the competitive yellows or the anti-Griswold rule. Just making some humor to explain my position. Our discussion of rewards weight in another thread obviously in linked to this one as well........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Horse Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Scott: Step away from the computer............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean#4AI Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Too much time on your hands today, Scott? This post reminds me of an old saying - If ya can't run with the big dogs, get off the porch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 You know Scott, I was just puttin on my jacket to come over there and slap you up side the head. Good thing I decided to read the whole email first!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardC Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Not to knock Lawrences announcing ability but the announcer at Putnam was awesome. He made everyone wonder what the hell was going on and drew people to the fence. We have SM and other close racing at NASA events, AI are not the only ones racing but we still don't have spectator attendance. There seems to be more to it than just having close racing. Richard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I agree with Scott. Not the anti-Griswold rule, the close racing suggestion. The only race that I had this year that people were interested in was at Putnam were Gene and I battled for 13 laps. That was the first close race fo the season, and it was at the last event in October. Everyone watched Gene & I battle, and I had a blast. I agree with Scott in that I don't see that happening in AIX too often. I am considering my next car to be an AI car for that reason, or bolt in 2000 pounds to meet the P2W rule That is not the only reason, cost is the other. It is really cool to go fast, really fast. After a season of that without constant battles for position, I am finding myself bored due to attrition of the typical AIX car. If I could count on someone to race and battle for position every race I may change my mind. The current AIX rules however will not allow me to remain competative too much longer. It is just a matter of time before Gene or someone makes a reliable 800 RWHP. I am convinced it WILL HAPPEN. I don't have the kind of funds to keep up with that (thanks partly to f*in Hoosier - don't get me started on that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 And here I thought Griswold was just serving as a rabbit to give us something to chase all year......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I have a feeling is Chris, Jeremy, and my father all keep their cars together next season will be very exciting. Scott, if you put a few more poneys in you could make it a 4 way race, and there's always some other guy building a car that may be competitive I'm sure. There are several other cars in our region that could be very quick as well but have had some bad luck. Instead of making the fast guys slower, I think the slower guys should just get faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 We have SM and other close racing at NASA events, AI are not the only ones racing but we still don't have spectator attendance. There seems to be more to it than just having close racing. Richard. I think the spec Miata's will get more attention when they burn rubber down Putnam's front straight in second and third gears like AI does But seriously, Chris, I know it was boring for most of your season, but I enjoyed watching how much more raw speed you had over the others. All the AI cars go by at speed X, then you go by at X+big number - it's impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 16, 2004 Author Share Posted October 16, 2004 Kurt- I won't be putting any money into my AIX motor. I've been doing pretty well with significantly less than the other lead AIX cars - 410rwhp. AIX is a class that can be bought by someone with a lot of money. Give me enough money, and I could build a car that would kick Griswold up and down the street - even with my grandmother driving. That is the result of open rules - which are at the same time both a blessing, and a curse. It's getting boring for me. I'd rather scrap for 10th in AI than be bored in 2nd in AIX..... This is about fun, after all..... Jim- The close competition and stable rules in SM have made it a class that is growing faster than probably any class ever. They attract plenty of attention. We have a big advantage on them - with our rumbling V8s, but we're still trailing WAY behind in participation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp99gt Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Jim- The close competition and stable rules in SM have made it a class that is growing faster than probably any class ever. They attract plenty of attention. We have a big advantage on them - with our rumbling V8s, but we're still trailing WAY behind in participation. Scott, I think a big part of that is cost to get into the AI series. In talking with various racers, the budget to support AI is higher than SM by a big margin - plus the initial buy-in (car) is more in AI as well, if you want to be towards the front. I agree, I enjoy watching competitive driving. At times it's just fun to watch the amazing acceleration all that HP can give you. --Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Kurt- I won't be putting any money into my AIX motor. I've been doing pretty well with significantly less than the other lead AIX cars - 410rwhp. AIX is a class that can be bought by someone with a lot of money. Give me enough money, and I could build a car that would kick Griswold up and down the street - even with my grandmother driving. That is the result of open rules - which are at the same time both a blessing, and a curse. It's getting boring for me. I'd rather scrap for 10th in AI than be bored in 2nd in AIX..... This is about fun, after all..... quote] I guess that's why you protested our floor pan? I think it's pretty ballsy to say someone's car isn't legal when you yourself haven't inspected the car...I'm sure you know what I'm referring to. AIX is for the big boys...not about the bitching and moaning that goes on in AI. If someone beats you because they have a faster car, so be it. I think it's pretty crappy that you're trying to slow eveyone else down so you can still be competitive Scott....don't try to play it off like you think it would be better for the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 16, 2004 Author Share Posted October 16, 2004 And I think it's pretty ballsy to accuse me of protesting this. I never protested your dad's car, never said anything about your dad's car, and in fact, never knew until about 30 seconds ago that there was any question about the legality of your dad's car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 16, 2004 Author Share Posted October 16, 2004 Scott, I think a big part of that is cost to get into the AI series. In talking with various racers, the budget to support AI is higher than SM by a big margin - plus the initial buy-in (car) is more in AI as well, if you want to be towards the front. I agree, I enjoy watching competitive driving. At times it's just fun to watch the amazing acceleration all that HP can give you. --Jim Yeah, don't get me wrong - I love the Horsepower. AI is certainly costlier than SM, and that's a big part of it too. But wouldn't it be cool if we could get a huge pack of cars to race hard with each other during the entire race? All else being equal, I think that close racing is always more fun to watch, and to participate in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 AIX is a class that can be bought by someone with a lot of money. Give me enough money, and I could build a car that would kick Griswold up and down the street - even with my grandmother driving. Scott, we have all taken a pole. We think your right. Your car would go faster if your grandmother was driving. You don't need h.p., get granny in there to show you how to drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 17, 2004 Author Share Posted October 17, 2004 I don't know Chris..... Do you think you could handle the competition!?! .... My Gram could never run in AIX - she despises anti-contact rules. You know those old-schoolers - they think Rubbin' is Racin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 AIX is a class that can be bought by someone with a lot of money. Give me enough money, and I could build a car that would kick Griswold up and down the street - even with my grandmother driving. Scott, we have all taken a pole. We think your right. Your car would go faster if your grandmother was driving. You don't need h.p., get granny in there to show you how to drive. I wasn't in on the poll, but I wish I had been. Scott, is this thread about something other than your rational why you should be running in AI other than AI/X? If your plans are to run in AI next year, I look forward to running with you, otherwise stop trying to steal Chris's show. Just to add some input on this, you have to have a reliable car to win. I don't care how much money you have spent. You have to first finish to finish first. I'm going to pick on Gene a little since he and Kurt were in the same scenario this year that I was last. The only race that I know of that they finished they won. Chris may or may not have the fastest car, but he frankly hasn't spent that much money on it, but it is reliable as hell. If my AI/X car had been built with that in mind, it might still be out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 18, 2004 Author Share Posted October 18, 2004 This thread was supposed to open up discussion on how we might tighten up the racing in general... but it's gotten way off track. I was hoping for pros and cons of success ballast, as well as any other ideas people might have. It's not just the front two cars - I'm talking about the entire field. More racing and less parade laps would be more fun for racers and spectators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Scott, I don't really feel like going any further into this but I guess Eric must have been lying when he said you had protested our car...but I highly doubt it. Don't worry, I'm installing a stock dash back into the car this week too. Yes close racing is fun to watch, but if someone is running AIX they just have to face the facts that they may have to buck up to be competitive. Mark, you're right on the money about the reliability issue...but I also wanted to note that I started building that car in January '04 so obviously it's still pretty green. The suspension, engine, brakes, and aero aren't anywhere near being dialed in yet and it still weighs 300 lbs more than Chris's car. I don't think there would be any problems with keeping the car reliable for next season should we end up running AIX again. With everything dialed in and some seat time for the driver I don't think it would be a problem knocking almost 2 seconds/lap off the current AIX times....but I'm sure Scott would find a way to slow us down then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Mark, you're right on the money about the reliability issue...but I also wanted to note that I started building that car in January '04 so obviously it's still pretty green. The suspension, engine, brakes, and aero aren't anywhere near being dialed in yet and it still weighs 300 lbs more than Chris's car. I don't think there would be any problems with keeping the car reliable for next season should we end up running AIX again. With everything dialed in and some seat time for the driver I don't think it would be a problem knocking almost 2 seconds/lap off the current AIX times....but I'm sure Scott would find a way to slow us down then. Kurt, my post wasn't a criticism. I've been there. We decided to build the AI/X car while I was driving to the championship banquet in January of 02. We found the car in February, and brought it out in April. I know exactly where you are coming from. Scott, I see what you are saying, but the only thing that would bring AI/X more together would be going to more of a spec series. All of the major racing sanctioning bodies control their rules to attempt this. Controlling the rule book in AI/X goes against the whole idea of "run what you brung". Another example of what you are talking about is the #08 AI/X car. I still have a ton of people wanting me to run this yellow banana of a car because it had the potential to be quick, and it most certainly looked good. A ton of people crowded around it when it was at the track. It was a draw, just like AI/X. Far more than I saw people looking at the AI cars. I'd suggest we give it a year or two to see what kind of vehicles people can bring out to run in AI/X and see how crazy the competition will be. Un Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 [quote name="onralz Kurt' date=' my post wasn't a criticism. I've been there. We decided to build the AI/X car while I was driving to the championship banquet in January of 02. We found the car in February, and brought it out in April. I know exactly where you are coming from. [/quote] I know you weren't being critical. I was trying to tell Scott that if he thinks the racing isn't close now, there's some cars out there already that will be much quicker very soon. I guess what I'm trying to say is when everyone gets their stuff dialed in there will be close racing...but Scott goes to two races a season and gets second because everyone else broke and now he wants to make the AIX cars slower. Forget that crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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