Kennedy Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 All, I have an 88 Notch I would like to use for AI racing. It is stripped down pretty well and I have done some suspension and brake work to the car. I would like to take it to some HPDEs and then AI racing. The main point of this is making me a better driver, I dont really have the budget to be seriously competitive. So far I only have about 2K in the car. It is a 5.0 Notch with C-Springs, All new Enegery Suspension Busings, Koni Yellows, STB, Adjustable rear sway, subframes, 5-lug conversions, 73mm calipers up front and 96 stang V-6 rear brakes. I am working on subframe connectors. I plan to add a panhard bar. I have the Mathis book and I am going to set the engine back, modify the K member and do some seam welding on the body. I am also adding GT-40P heads to get me closer to the 290 rwhp I need. Please advise me on how to get the car legal for an event. I know I need a cage, but it seems to be a controversial topic on the boards. Also, I need good seats and 5 points. Please advise there also. I did a search and didn't come up with much. I have read the rules so I have some understanding of what you guys are about. Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtm68 Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Where do you live? Internet message boards are no replacement for attneding an event and talking to car owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 I live in Maryland, and I will try and attend an event next season. In the mean time I will be working on my cars suspension and upgrading the engine. Thanks for the reply. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 Kennedy, Your list of upgrades is a good start for an AI car. If you don't have much or any track experience, my advise is get the car to the track next year. If the car is already in pieces, I'd put a cage, seats, harness, fuel cell, fire system and what ever else you can afford on your list and hit the track. The item I'd recommend to upgrade, that you don't have listed is brakes. Upgrade the front brakes with either the 13" rotors and Cobra calipers or spend some money and get a pair of 4 piston (Brembo, Stoptech, Wilwood.....), and some front brake ducts. But, if the car is still together, upgrade the front brakes and get yourself to the track. The front runners will have much more then you have listed, but I wouldn't be to conserned about keeping up with them, yet. You will learn an unbievealbe amount by getting out to the track and running in the HPDE's. As mentioned earlier, you can walk around and check out the AI cars, and ask a lot of quetions, and check out everyones set up. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy Posted November 6, 2004 Author Share Posted November 6, 2004 D Algozine, Thanks for the reply. The interior is gutted, so I can go from there. Seats/Cage/Harnesses are at the top of my list. After that, I will get my butt to a HPDE. What is a good cage to put in the car that would be AI legal? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Beverly Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 If your concerned about money perhaps CMC might be a better choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 "AI" and "cheap" are not two words you can really use in the same sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jschings Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 I was thinking the same thing. Cheap hasn't figured into my build yet. As for a cage, I think the best thing is to talk to other racers. Too many variables there to give a cookie cutter answer. Really depends on if you can do it yourself or not, how many bars you add for stiffness, if you add door bars, etc. Bring a camera to HPDE and start gathering data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 D Algozine, Thanks for the reply. The interior is gutted, so I can go from there. Seats/Cage/Harnesses are at the top of my list. After that, I will get my butt to a HPDE. What is a good cage to put in the car that would be AI legal? Chris Because its the off season, its going to be difficult to check out other AI cars. I would ask your regions AI or CMC director or Regional NASA director to help you with some names of AI/CMC guys near you. Many guys have there own web sites, so you can check out photos, but your going to need to get a close up look at someones cage. As stated earlier, there are many different designs. You'll have to decide what works for you. Review the CCR's and AI rules very closely. If your on a tight budget, than don't build an AI car, yet. Get the car together and get some track expereince. You may want to run the CMC- Camaro Mustang Challenge. Check out their rules, as well. I'd leave the suspension and engine alone until you know what you want to do. Again, there are many choices and all are pretty expensive, so don't spend any money unitl you have a plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I got in an AI-legal car ready to race for just under $5,000. The guy was desparate and the car was actually much closer to CMC specs, but it is possible... I was dog-slow this year, but I still finished 5th in points in a $5,000 car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 9, 2004 Members Share Posted November 9, 2004 "AI" and "cheap" are not two words you can really use in the same sentence. Yes they are - you can build an AI car cheap if you are a good driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean#4AI Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 "AI" and "cheap" are not two words you can really use in the same sentence. Yes they are - you can build an AI car cheap if you are a good driver and you are perfectly content to run no better than mid pack.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I think some of you are missing the point. Chris didn't ask how to build a highly competitve front running AI car. If I understand him correctly he is on a budget and wants to get into racing and likes AI. He also, is just getting started. How could anyone try to tell him on a forum thread about everything he needs to know and do? It's not going to happen. If you have never been on a track and don't have any idea about the design and components needed to make an AI car, how can you start at the top. Everyone needs to think back to there first track experience. Most guys had no idea what is involved. We all started somewhere, and for me it wasn't that long ago, so I can relate. Why can't he build a low budget AI car, learn to drive for a couple of years, learn was is required to be a front runner and then decide if you want to make the effort to be highly competitive? Hell, he could have a great time for years racing mid pack. Its a pretty big step to want to be on top, and he sure isn't going to start their. All, I would like to take it to some HPDEs and then AI racing. The main point of this is making me a better driver, I dont really have the budget to be seriously competitive. Please advise me on how to get the car legal for an event. I know I need a cage, but it seems to be a controversial topic on the boards. Also, I need good seats and 5 points. Please advise there also. Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 9, 2004 Members Share Posted November 9, 2004 "AI" and "cheap" are not two words you can really use in the same sentence. Yes they are - you can build an AI car cheap if you are a good driver and you are perfectly content to run no better than mid pack.... Why not run mid-pack? I have had the most fun in a crowd vs. running out front all by yourself... I have even started at the back of the pack intentionally (shugg?road atlanta?) just to have fun running thru everyone else I remember John Pearson and Beau Dunnivant telling how awesome it was to race each other and BOTH were far from the front back then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean#4AI Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 "AI" and "cheap" are not two words you can really use in the same sentence. Yes they are - you can build an AI car cheap if you are a good driver and you are perfectly content to run no better than mid pack.... Why not run mid-pack? I have had the most fun in a crowd vs. running out front all by yourself... I have even started at the back of the pack intentionally (shugg?road atlanta?) just to have fun running thru everyone else I remember John Pearson and Beau Dunnivant telling how awesome it was to race each other and BOTH were far from the front back then... Did I say there was something wrong with running mid-pack? I was just saying you can't build a cheap AI car and be a front runner. Everyone has there own reasons for racing. No one should be telling anyone that it is wrong to be satisfied with mid pack. Also no one should be telling anyone that it is wrong to want to win and build/spend accordingly. Dave is correct though, he never asked how much it would cost to be compeditive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 You could run in HPDE4 and experience all the "fun" of racing without having to worry about all the car to car contact that seems to have become the acceptable norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 10, 2004 Members Share Posted November 10, 2004 You could run in HPDE4 and experience all the "fun" of racing without having to worry about all the car to car contact that seems to have become the acceptable norm. What car to car contact? We haven't seen ANY this year It's been an awesome year with lots of clean racing... we havd had tons of fun this year and I can vouch for being in some races where I came off track so exhilirated that I was speechless (and anyone that knows me - knows that doesn't happen often ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Jim, You guys are so busy open tracking and just having fun in the SE there's no chance to have car to car contact. For over half the season in OH/IN we had at least one good "Incidental contact" per race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 2004 was my first year and I felt that the contact was minimal and the majority of damage that I saw was due to people "losing it" not being hit. Is this really the topic to be discussing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 No Keith it's not the topic of discussion here but mearly a tangent. Although there were a few situations where a car actually lost it (I can think of one at Putman), most of the car to car contact was definitely NOT due to people just losing it. If people lost it that often then they need to be recalibrated. ON second thought this could be considered part of this topic as the cost to repair a vehicle is definitely part of the overall cost of an AI car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 ON second thought this could be considered part of this topic as the cost to repair a vehicle is definitely part of the overall cost of an AI car. I unfortunately have to agree with this statement. Although car to car contact (or any object that may cross your path) is rare in this series, the risk is still there. You need to be prepared to deal with the unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z28racergirl Posted November 14, 2004 Share Posted November 14, 2004 I took a street car, "stripped" it, put in a cage, and went racing with AI West in Feb 2002. I thought it was just like HPDE, but for position, not for time. I was very naive! Now, while I can't tell you want to expect in Maryland, as it seems as though the East region does in fact have a number of mid-packers, I can say that out West we've been through 3 years of front-runner fights. At least that's my opinion of the last three years. We have had some really big time folks in our fold and I believe they have pushed us to a frenzy. Again, my opinion. If the group had been all stripped street cars with cages, I would have a different outlook of couse. But they're NOT. Many of them cost many tens of thousands of dollars to prepare for AI. I could not have spent $5K and competed with them. I have a blast, and I'll be back for 05! However, the biggest thing I learned over these last three years is that racing, and race car prep is NOTHING like HPDE. I used to drive my Mazda to the track, change it's wheels, and drive home when I was done for the day/weekend. Sometimes a CV boot would rip. In racing, something is always breaking, gonna break, or someone else helps you break something. I think I bring more that $5K in tools and spares alone with me to events. Who knows how much it's cost me to transform ol' #29 over the years. Please don't tally the numbers, I don't want to know. I don't want to dissuade anyone from running AI, but I want to be honest about the cost. I think a $5K budget is even low for CMC. These are my opinions, and if you can do it for that little please do it! And my first big expense was from car-to-car contact with two other "rookies" in my last rookie race. If I had the experience then that I have now, I might have been able to avoid it. FYI. Thanks, and best of luck! And most of all, have fun! Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbasf Posted November 14, 2004 Share Posted November 14, 2004 Excellent post Christine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indycmc Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 Chris - the CMC contingent on the East coast is pretty large. You might want to check in with Kent Lydic, the East Coast CMC director. [email protected]. website: http://www.cmceast.com/ If $$ are your concern, CMC would give you a good starting point and if you decide at a future date that you want to jump into AI, it won't be quite as a big as a jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Christine's post is indeed very well written. Running mid-to-back pack isn't a bad thing, especially for your first season of racing. Get the required safety gear, get the car running good, go out and have fun. Don't get caught up in the "I gotta have Wilwoods, gotta have ~300rwhp", etc. You'd be surprised how well a basically stock Mustang can run on a road course. FWIW, I paid $4500 for an 85 GT that was almost perfect for CMC. A few minor items required changing ( headers, intake, rear control arms ), but it was ready to race. You can do CMC, or AI on a budget. Depending on how competitive your region is will dictate where you run in the group. CMC is an excellent starting point to get your race-jones started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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