Rule Clarification Please

[FlyingDog]

15.10 Windows / Window Nets

Unless class rules specify otherwise, vehicles should be operated with both side

windows (driver and passenger) windows down (open). Note- rear side windows (e.g.

four door vehicles) may be in the “up” or “down” position.

After the 2009 CCRs were released I asked if we could have lexan side windows. I was told that as long as class rules did not specifically disallow use of side windows, "should" is a recommendation. This was discussed on the other GTS forum before class management changed.

 

4.0

Car Modifications

Any modification to the car is allowed subject to the following restrictions.

All GTS cars must use an engine originally built by the manufacturer of the car’s chassis (i.e. any Porsche may use any Porsche engine). Swapping engines between different chassis made by the same manufacturer is allowed, but swapping engines of different marques into different chassis is specifically not allowed. Cars that have competed in a GTS race prior to 11/07 may have different marque engines swaps and may change back to original engine manufacturer at any time. However, such cars cannot switch to another engine of a different manufacturer such as moving from a Chevrolet V8 to Ford V8 in a Porsche chassis.

Additional roll cage bracing and construction is allowed and recommended. Tube frame cars will be classed according to the Non-D.O.T. table regardless of tire choice. Tube frame cars running Non-D.O.T. tires will be bumped into the next higher class. “Tube frame” is defined as any car that does not retain the manufacturer’s stock unit body or chassis. Modification of suspension and drivetrain mounting points alone does not constitute a tube frame.

4.1

Cockpit adjustable engine management systems

All adjustable engine management systems must be declared on the Dynamometer Certification Form. Failure to do so will result in disqualification of all timed sessions for the weekend. Adjustable engine management systems include but are not limited to systems such as MoTec and MegaSquirt that can upload and download from external computers, potentiometers, diodes, and switches that can alter signals from engine sensors and other factory installed devices such as traction control that change engine performance when non-drive wheels are stationary.

Side windows are not listed in the restrictions, so they are allowed. This was discussed in detail on the other GTS forum before Mark Barr killed it.

 

Now that my car is under construction and I have invested time and money into quick release side windows, I am told the rule (which hasn't changed in text) is being interpreted differently. "Should" supposedly now means "MUST". If that was the case, why were the AI and ST/SU rules edited this year to specifically disallow side windows (unless installed by the factory for SU)? The 2009 AI and ST/SU rules were written by NASA National after the 2009 CCRs and the new side window rules allude to the fact that side windows are allowed unless class rules disallow them.

 

Which interpretation is correct? Can we the GTS rules be edited to specifically allow side windows to avoid NASA reinterpreting again in the future?

[ianacole]

Side windows are not disallowed - you are interpreting the rules correctly. I cannot say that will continue to be the case in the future, but that is how the rules read now. The reason that they are not completely disallowed is that they can be installed with a quick release capability to allow you to escape the vehicle through the window should the need arise.

 

Now, here's why I think you should reconsider the use of side windows, especially Lexan, even with a quick release system: you have a violent crash where the driver's side ends up against a barricade, you're knocked unconscious (cannot pull the quick release), and your car catches fire. Corner workers cannot smash the window since it's not glass to extract you - you're waiting until the emergency truck gets around.

 

In reference to the GTS rules listing side windows, it actually does, via the CCR:

 

All cars, drivers, and entrants will be subject to the NASA Club Codes and Regulations, specifically the Technical Requirements, Required Safety Equipment, Vehicle Safety Inspection, Vehicle Legality Inspection, and General Competition Vehicle Rules sections (NASA CCR Sections 11 and 15-18). These sections cover rules for safety equipment, including full roll cages, window nets, belts, extinguishers, as well as car markings, appearance and other items. All cars must have a NASA vehicle log book and all drivers must have a NASA competition license.

 

We can implement a rule that will exceed the requirements of Safety as outlined in the CCR...we cannot implement a rule that countermands or undermines the Safety sections of the CCR.

 

But, again, as you interpreted, you can use lexan for the front side windows. Just please think through the ramifications and possible implications of this decision. Also, Lexan for the rear windows is completely open, just in case it needed saying.

 

If you'd like to talk directly about this, please feel free to call me on my cell at 720.270.2147. I'm more than happy and willing to discuss this or any other topic at any time with any competitor, especially for those who do not like using forums. Overall, though, I'm perfectly happy opening and having these discussions on the forums.

[FlyingDog]

Ian,

 

Thanks for the clarification! My side windows will have a clearly marked release on the outside for emergency workers. After having a couple piece of gravel kicked up by other cars come through the window and hit me in my current car, I am more concerned with that than fire.

[ianacole]

I certainly appreciate the desire - after Saturday's race when I was getting pelted in the face with sideways blowing rain (the second I put my visor down it was full of fog, even with anti-fog slathered all over it), I was all for windows

 

Are you running a mesh net, or one of the webbed ones?

[FlyingDog]

The current car has a webbed one, but the gravel went through the triangular opening in front of the net. A Fox Mustang doesn't even have a large window opening. The 928 window opening is huge.

[ianacole]

I'm in the same boat with the GTI - huge front windows, and the webbed net interferes with the line of sight for the rear view mirror. I'm having a custom mesh net made through TeamTech Motorsports: http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/safteynets/custom.html.

[RSCoupe]

I'm in the same boat with the GTI - huge front windows, and the webbed net interferes with the line of sight for the rear view mirror. I'm having a custom mesh net made through TeamTech Motorsports: http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/safteynets/custom.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

Thanks for that link Ian, I've been looking for a custom window net! The triangular opening in front of my net is huge, and I get pelted with gravel and rubber every now and then.

[FlyingDog]

I'm in the same boat with the GTI - huge front windows, and the webbed net interferes with the line of sight for the rear view mirror. I'm having a custom mesh net made through TeamTech Motorsports: http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/safteynets/custom.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The harnesses currently in my Mustang are TeamTech. I've seen their nets and they look nice. As nice as they are, it would still have to be way to big to fill the window on a 928.

 

I'll stick with 1/4" Lexan/Makrolon because it really is the safer, smarter option. Now that you have confirmed that it's legal I can proceed with the build.

[RSCoupe]

Could someone explain, or give links to, a quick release system for the side windows?

 

TIA

[FlyingDog]

I think Scott Whitehead mentioned one in the AI thread about side windows. I designed one for my car. From what I have heard, NASA does not want removable windows because they are worried about them becoming projectiles. I put the manufacture of my releases on hold in case they want me to permanently mount the windows in the car (like Porsche Cup cars).

[FlyingDog]

For anybody following along... NASA ruled that it is within the spirit of the rules for GTS cars to have lexan side windows. The rule will not be changed. Contact Ian Cole and/or John Lindsey for more details regarding attachment and safety.