More SPC Ball Joints

[kbrew8991]

classing a Corvette for SpecC5Z06 (aka TTA) is easy though

[jason]

classing a Corvette for SpecC5Z06 (aka TTA) is easy though

Reading ahead of time kept me from spending alot of money on thing I'd "like to have" that would have bumped me up. A lesson I learned the expensive, and slow, way on my previous car.

[Trevor57]

Overall the rules are very clear. This one instance doesn't make the rules any less clear, it makes them more clear.

[ff2skip]

Just tallying up points on an already built car, usually won't net a championship winning car.

I finally agree with you on something. That said, it isn't everyone's singular goal to build a TT car that crushes all comers. I would assume some folks simply made the transition from HPDE ranks to TT's.

 

 

Five days after the start of this thread I'm just now finding out that a) the title was changed, not by the original author, and b) content of that original post was deleted- again, not by the author. Wow. You don't have to worry about me anymore. Goodbye.

[phoenixR34]

 

 

First, this method is very uninviting to new competitors. How often do you think the future NASA competitor wakes up and says, "Gee golly, I think I'll get into cars today and the best way to do that would be by joining NASA's TT program. I should probably go and read all of the rules first so some guy on the internet doesn't protest me 11 days later after I asked him to look at my car at the event."

 

Do you really think people do that? I know I didn't, and you probably didn't either.

 

In this case, we're not talking about just a random person that built a car to leisurely participate in TT. There are plenty of people that do that--class their cars and run as-is. That's fine.

 

The difference is, when someone starts beating track records or attends Nationals, that's an entirely different level.. and being scrutinized is part of being on that upper platform.

 

If you (or anyone) decided to build a car for Spec Miata, there would be no question about the vehicle building process. ie. you buy a Miata and do the *exact* mods that the rulebook allows. If you beat a Spec Miata track record, then post online about how you have modified camshafts, what do you think is going to happen?

 

So many people think TT is just a glorified version of HPDE, when in reality it's a nationally sanctioned series that competes on the highest level (the National Championships). Am I right or wrong on that?

[Michael Alsip]

Well, I guess you're right about it, but I'm not sure where you're going with it...

[phoenixR34]

I'm not sure where this thread has been going for the last nine pages either.

[Michael Alsip]

I'm not sure where this thread has been going for the last nine pages either.

 

[Greg G.]

I'm not sure where this thread has been going for the last nine pages either.

I agree that this post is more junk. It started that way, and I should have just deleted it from the start.

Instead, I edited the crap that was written on the original post, and left what was objective and could be discussed by others. But, once again, a few of you just can't seem to stay on topic without posting personal attacks or complaints about a system that literally thousands of competitors are enjoying. Most competitors never see these forums, and unfortunately, lately, there have been too many times when I wish I was one of them. However, when someone starts a thread with personal attacks against me or NASA, I am not going to let them stand.

Five days after the start of this thread I'm just now finding out that a) the title was changed, not by the original author, and b) content of that original post was deleted- again, not by the author. Wow. You don't have to worry about me anymore. Goodbye.

 

As above. All I can say is that the O.P. was way out of line. If you don't like it, goodbye.

 

 

Any rule that is not 100% clear to a 5th grader needs to be re-written.

I guess that's the problem--I don't want to be out on track with a 5th grader. You've got to be joking. Perhaps you should try writing a few racing rules yourself some day. Send me what you come up with, and I will send you back the twenty questions that a fifth grade educated driver would ask you and the five loopholes that will be used by the car experts to try and get more gains than you had "intended" when you wrote them. FYI, I asked my fifth grader what "Alteration of ball joints/dive angles +2" means. The answer was, "I don't know what ball joints or dive angles are, but it looks like if you change them, it is +2".

The second thing worth nothing here is that with an unclear rule set, it's ludicrous to think that people will be able to sit around and wait on interpretation from Greg as to whether they're getting points or not. Look at my thread; he was just about unwilling to help me because he wanted me to go to a regional TT director (and when I'm at an event, it's already too late), and I've heard more than one story about how people have emailed him only to never see a response to that email. Whether it be just a general unfriendliness or being too busy to get all of his work done, Greg doesn't always fill the interpretation void that we all have; however, this is neither here nor there as it becomes quite evident from reading the rules that they are certainly unclear, even to people with gobs of technical experience.

Michael, I'm sorry that you are having trouble with reading the rules and understanding them. I don't remember anyone every saying that you are expected to sit around and wait for an interpretation from me. Your questions were basic, and if you would have followed the suggestion on page 1 of the TT Rules, and consult your TT Director, you would get the personal service that you apparently need. Obviously, I don't know what stories that you have heard, but I'm pretty sure that the 20-60 e-mails a day that I answer for NASA related subjects contradict your statement. I use a Yahoo e-mail address, and it is plastered everywhere, so I also get about 100+ spam e-mails a day. It is possible that someone that doesn't put a subject line with NASA or some race related header will get they e-mail sent to the spam folder. I review the sender and subject lines of the spam folder before I delete them, but I'm sure not going to go through them all. Rarely, I get a bunch of e-mails from someone that thinks I have nothing better to do than to answer the same question(s) over and over, debate the rules as they are written, or just can't take "no" for an answer. I don't feel obligated to send the same answer again and again to him, and I don't need to have the same debate that just took place here. You state that "Greg doesn't always fill the interpretation void that we all have." Well, sorry again, but first off, not everyone has an "interpretation void". Second, we have literally thousands of drivers in TT, PT, and ST. That is why we have more than 20 Regional Directors for these classes. In your thread about the classing of your car, you proved my point about not trying to class cars over the Internet. Your initial post failed to mention that you had aftermarket sway bars. Are there other mods on the car that you have forgotten about? I have had too many drivers over the years that have failed to recognize all of the mods on their cars--not a rules problem, a driver lack of awareness problem. That is why all of the TT Directors should be reluctant to "class cars" over the internet. I have also heard drivers blaming others that attempted to help them class their cars (on these forums, by e-mail, and even at the track without looking at the car) that got it wrong because they didn't give ALL of the Exact information.

 

So, please don't take this as a me vs. you thing where I'm just disagreeing for the sake of it. I really do truly agree that the best way to get things done at this point is by doing exactly what you said, but I don't agree that this should be the best way. Something needs to be done to clarify the points rules. This doesn't mean that they have to become more stringent, but it does mean that they have to become more clear.

I'm always amazed when people that have never participated in our program (or any TT competition) begin to complain before they ever hit the track, and then spread rumors about people that they have never met and know nothing about. Remember this one? Let me recap a bit. You just had your first track day ever, and joined the Forums about 2 weeks ago. This means that your statement above, "and when I'm at an event, it's already too late," is wrong. You will need multiple HPDE events before you are qualified to drive in TT. That means that you will have multiple weekends to consult the TT Director, have him look at the car, and go over any questions that you have, way in advance of the start of competition.

 

Months were spent on the Integra's paint. I revived it to its once showroom-pristine glory, but became a bit disheartened when I found a small rust bubble in the paint. Nevertheless, I pursued a goal of crystal clear paint and garage-queen status....

 

For the last two weeks, I've done nothing but think about how I was going to get my competition license and come out to ream on some TTD competition. That is, until I found this thread. No longer am I excited about coming to compete in the TT series. No longer am I excited about taking the next step in my automotive career. No longer am I doing the math and watching the videos to see where I can make up time to break a lap record. Why? Because I'm fairly certain that the keyboard jockeys on this forum will suck the life and the fun out of any glory I may hope to achieve. If this is what happens when you're new and you do well, I want no part of it.

 

At the ripe old age of 24, my motorsports career may be drawing to an end. I've "lost that lovin' feeling" for what was once "the plan". My naivety forced me to succumb to the notion that people are generally good in the race scene. But no more. No longer will I hold that opinion. But hey, thanks for sucking the fun out of it, guys. Now, I have the chance to grow old several years sooner. Instead of NASA gaining the support of someone willing to travel thousands of miles to compete in events across the country and make sacrifices to compete, they won't be getting me.

 

I guess we all have to grow up at some point. It just looks like several of you have chosen not to just yet.

 

Peace, y'all. I'm out.

I'd have to agree with you that some people need to grow up before entering race competition. It is answering posts like this, and the one that originally started this thread (edited for his verbal abuse and personal attacks) that send me off the forums to help those by e-mail that read the rules, ask questions of their TT Directors, seek clarification when things are truly not clear (which for whatever reason, this SPC ball joint issue became, and it seems that someone should have consulted a TT Director), and do not engage in spreading rumors or personal attacks.

[Greg G.]

Ok, lets see if we can generate another 9 pages of junk now

 

Then, I can lock the thread or delete it, and we can start all over again. This thread is the reason that I locked the original one after I posted both the answer to the question, and the Technical Bulletin that was requested by another Director because he suspected that there were more than a few S2000's on the East side of the country that were not compliant.

[Shawn M.]

Ok, lets see if we can generate another 9 pages of junk now

 

Then, I can lock the thread or delete it, and we can start all over again. This thread is the reason that I locked the original one after I posted both the answer to the question, and the Technical Bulletin that was requested by another Director because he suspected that there were more than a few S2000's on the East side of the country that were not compliant.

 

 

Is it locked yet?

 

Awwwwww.....

[phoenixR34]

We were just waiting for you to say something, Shawn. Now that you got it out of the way, it's OK to lock it.

[2k2s2k]

Greg, I don't know anybody that would want your job, making good rules and dealing with all the problems associated. I also think that people get upset when they have believed they were following the rules, rightly or wrongly, only to find out they have interpretted them wrong. I have also personally asked questions of regional PT/TT directors and gotten responses that, after emailing you, I found were wrong. Thank you for clearing this and many other rules up, for those of us that make mistakes. I do think that being in a "customer service" position, you might be turning some future TT'ers off with some of your responses and actions on this forum. What's that old saying..."kill them with kindness"

 

One question...might it be better to title that other thread "SPC ball joints", since owners of many makes/models may use them?

[Greg G.]

I would imagine that there are probably other manufacturers of similar ball joint replacements out there for other models, or possibly even for the S2000. So, I would rather not "call out" a specific company's product unless it is the only possible one out there.

 

As far as getting mod points correct, I agree that most of the time that I have found that a driver has incorrectly assessed the points, there was certainly no intent to blatantly cheat. Often, they are following the lead of someone else that they thought knew the rules, or checked with someone, etc. However, what I have also found is that two biggest mistakes made are 1) simply not reading the entire car classification form and 2) what I would call wishful thinking. This ball joint issue would fall under one of these two mistakes for 99% of those that chose not to take the points for them. The TT Rules specifically permit NASA to eject, suspend, or move to TTR a driver that has made such mistakes (especially when they end up on the podium, setting track records, etc). Now, we have not taken that approach with the various drivers that are apparently involved with this one, because we don't believe that they were trying to cheat.

 

When I began the National TT program 6 years ago, one service that I elected to provide was that of direct access to me at various times on the NASAForums. E-mail access has always been a given, and is put right in the Rules. However, answering questions on these forums is really a value added service. What I have found recently is that we have (usually newer) competitors that don't understand that this is not a debating society. When I give an answer on the forums, whether it is an explanation of a rule, the origin of a rule, a reason that we don't want to do something a different way, a Technical Bulletin, etc., I'm not requesting a 10 page debate to follow, with multiple posts asking for the "Official ruling" or "Official position" again and again. I don't care if the rest of you want to continue to bounce whatever ideas you have to each other. However, as soon as I start getting e-mails from my Directors stating, "Greg, you better check out this thread on page 15....", and what I find are incorrect statements and facts, personal attacks against me, other competitors, or other Directors, attacks against NASA, or attacks against the program itself, I will take action. These forums are not here for those that have a beef about something to libel, slander, or otherwise maliciously attack others. I have removed and edited things posted here over the years that if they were said in person at the track, the driver would have been ejected immediately from the event (at a minimum). One thing that many of our Directors have grown weary of seeing is the bashing coming from those that are not even participants in our program. If this is how they are going to start out, then either they need an attitude adjustment, or the program will ultimately be better off without them. While growth of the program has always been one of my major goals (since we started with 9 drivers), we would be better off without a few current or potential participants in this program (just like every race group in existence) that cause more trouble than they are worth. While the TT program has gotten much more competitive over the years since we started having the NASA Championships, the majority of our drivers just want to have fun. For most of them, it is not fun when they get beaten by someone that didn't follow the rules, when they did. As a fellow competitor and racer, I understand this. And, I can honestly say that our TT drivers are still a different breed from our PT racers. In general, they do a better job of having a fun competition, help each other with fixing cars, and end up being good friends at the end of the day. However, one may not get that impression from reading the TT Forum vs the PT Forum. I have found that of the thousand or so TT drivers that we have, 1-2% come on here and want drama. The other 980 drivers either ignore it, or read it and laugh at whatever foolishness just came out. So, if after reading 10 pages of what I consider to be misleading information, speculation, and accusation, I decide to post an "Official" response and lock a thread so that the Official response doesn't have to be given another five times, that is my decision to make. And, as the moderator of this forum, and global administrator of the entire NASAForums, I find participants electing to use personal attacks, foul language or gestures, and false accusations, I will edit and/or delete those posts. If everyone would just play nicely, it would never have to happen. In fact, when it does happen, it delays me answering e-mails to the guys who need help, and request it.

[2k2s2k]

Thanks for the in-depth explanation, and thanks for all the hard work.

 

My point about the title of the thread was more because I thought someone may need to read it, and fail to, because it specifically states that it's S2000 ball joints.