nazar Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 i am ready to join nasa for 05 and i would like to know exactly how to go about it I have read through their website and this forum and there are some things i dont understand I have a 99 neon acr thats setup to fullfill most requirements for nasa/scca racing that i use for road racing and autocross I was reading about how hpde works and it sounds interesting So it goes from group 1 - 4 but how does this work, is that 4 events/days you go through, or do you stay in each group for a set amount of time??? Also how is the mentor program organized? I see before most events there is a HPDE event. So how does this work exactly? I buy my nasa membership, and then sign up for a hdpe event, how is the mentor thing organized? And once i get one, what does each event comprise of? Most are about $150-200 and says you get 2 or so hours. Does that mean i go out with my menttor for 2 hours during my group run? Is it 1 car per time? Once i go through a group 1 event, what happens? How do i move up to group 2? I would like to eventually get my nasa provisional license at least to be eligible to race as a rookie. In the meantime i will continue my open track even racing and autocrossing, but i would really like to get into nasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazar Posted December 6, 2004 Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 ok i was doin some more reading and i get it a bit more hpde is more like a gradual open track day thing and you go at your own pace, is this correct? But how does signing up work? And how many events does it take on average to get to group 4 and eventually get your provisional license? I dont mind staying in HPDE all next year if it stays fun enough and competative enough one main question about passing, in group 1-3 is there no passing at all??? If so how does that work if you have a 400hp porsche and a 90hp crx? I am very excited to even be in HPDE group 1 because i want to get as much track time with instructor as possible, i did this once in laguna seca for a 2 day racing class with an instructor and it was a blast, i need as much advice and instruction as possible Is it more expensive for group one with instructor then other groups? Is the instructor included in the price? This sounds like a blast and sounds like its even more fun then open track day events i have been to because it seems more organized and proffesional Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_2kgt Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 ok i was doin some more reading and i get it a bit more hpde is more like a gradual open track day thing and you go at your own pace, is this correct? Correct. You sign up for Group 1, you may be in group 1 for 1 weekend (maybe 1 session!) or you might be in group 1 for the rest of your life . Usually .5-1 year is good for most. But how does signing up work? And how many events does it take on average to get to group 4 and eventually get your provisional license? Well, if you have NEVER been on track before I'd suggest sign up for HPDE 1, if you've ran with a few groups, maybe HPDE 2. Save HPDE 3 for after you are comfortable with NASA and the people driving in those groups. I dont mind staying in HPDE all next year if it stays fun enough and competative enough HPDE is NOT competitive. You win nothing, you don't get timed, it is for fun and to LEARN how to drive, not take home a trophy. one main question about passing, in group 1-3 is there no passing at all??? If so how does that work if you have a 400hp porsche and a 90hp crx? Group 1 has passing on Straights w/ a point by, Group 2 same deal and on some (most?) tracks you will get a few more places opened up to you. Group 3 and 4 is open passing with point by. This can vary from region to region and track to track, but that's generally how it works. I am very excited to even be in HPDE group 1 because i want to get as much track time with instructor as possible, i did this once in laguna seca for a 2 day racing class with an instructor and it was a blast, i need as much advice and instruction as possible Is it more expensive for group one with instructor then other groups? Is the instructor included in the price? Group 1-3 is the same price. You WILL have an instructor in 1-2 (unless you are 2 solo) and can request one if available in group 3. Group 4 is instructors. They don't pay. This sounds like a blast and sounds like its even more fun then open track day events i have been to because it seems more organized and proffesional It really is, even if you don't sign up for the next one, come out and hang out with the people on saturday or sunday. Everyone i've ever ran into is very friendly and more than welcome to answer your questions if time premits. Best thing to do is just sign up and come on out! --chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazar Posted December 6, 2004 Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 cool, wil do for sure, when the acr is fully track ready, im in sweden now finishing my semester and will be back in time for the start of next year I will be having a cage installed in it to get it fully ready for later road events where it is required, plus for extra safety for me, and it will be a chromoly 8 point cage(6 point, plus lateral bars for the hoop) The guy usually makes it out of 1 3/4" x .83" but i heard nasa still requires chromoly to be same thickness as dom...why is this, isnt chromoly stronger and therefore can run thinner Its gonna cost more to do it in 1 3/4" x .95", so what are the official requirements for a chromoly cage when it comes to series racing, like specneon and ustcc? I might ass well make it to spec for later events. Other then that, im ready to go. I am in central california so i am fortunate enough to be able to hit up all california events, from south to north, and i have places to stay within 1 hour of all tracks, lol, so i am very fortunate. me and my roomate just aquired this 99 neon acr that was mostly a solo car and is in mint condition, as all the basic engine mods, kosei with azenis tires, mopar suspension and all the other basics, should be a great car i did laguna seca back in the day in my heavily modified focus, but it was turbocharged and ran on a standalone, so it should be more fun with a simpler car thats normally aspirated and lighter I am also going to get some carbotech panther plus brake for braking, the car is already gutted out and is fairly light, should be a blast at the track How much track time do you usually get in 1 day and what is the average cost for each day? As far as the good people, this is one of the main reasons i started road racing, the people who are into it are MUCH cooler then people who drag race and street race, its getting stupid, road racing usually attracks a more mature, and more interesting and knowledgable crowd, so i am definetly looking foreward to it. My roomates friend is also a bmw driving school instructor at laguna seca and he is also a great help to perfecting our driving skills, i would eventually like to join ustcc or spec neon with this car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 7, 2004 National Staff Share Posted December 7, 2004 nazar, Chad was correct in his answers as they pertain to his region. We do things a little differently here in California (Isn't that the way it is with everything that goes on in California). In the SoCal region (Willow Springs, California Speedway, Buttonwillow, sometimes Las Vegas), HPDE 1 and 2 are very limited passing as Chad stated, with an instructor in your car in HPDE 1, and HPDE 2 if you desire one. HPDE 3 is faster, and the equivalent of an intermediate/ advanced-intermediate level. There is passing in designated areas of the track that are defined in the driver's meeting (always on straights), but no point by is required (although always welcome and appreciated), and passing is usually on either side of the car, although sometimes the HPDE 3 lead instructor will make exceptions. HPDE 4 is our advanced run group. Advanced drivers, instructors, and racers can all run in HPDE 4. There is open passing anywhere on the track, and this can be a very fast group (often with high powered Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, Vipers, etc.). Each of our HPDE levels come with instruction in one form or another (no extra charges for in-car or classroom instruction with us). There are "download" sessions after every run session for all levels of HPDE, where the lead instructor or director goes over various aspects of that particular session, or any of a variety of other pertinent topics. There is no timing of HPDE 1 and 2 vehicles. HPDE 3 and 4 cars can run with a transponder, and times are posted after every session, but there is no competition. The times are for driver education only to improve consistency, and to see how various changes made in driving technique during sessions corresponds to changes in times. HPDE 4 drivers are eligible to run in NASA Time Trial (TT). This is actual competition based on the run times obtained during the HPDE 4 sessions (or during TT only sessions when available). In our region, we have daily and annual awards based on competition results. TT is a great way to bridge between HPDE and full racing. About 20% of our drivers go on to full racing. As far as your cage questions are concerned, I referred you to the NASA CCR's in another thread that you asked about this. I would do some research before using Chromoly instead of steel DOM. I believe that some of the Road Rally organizations (in Nevada) have now made Chomoly illegal because of the increased risk of cracking (instead of bending). I'm not an expert in this field, but after talking to some, I decided that the weight saved wasn't worth the cost(s) for my purposes. Also, I may want to do one or two of those rallies someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_2kgt Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 nazar, Chad was correct in his answers as they pertain to his region. We do things a little differently here in California (Isn't that the way it is with everything that goes on in California). In the SoCal region (Willow Springs, California Speedway, Buttonwillow, sometimes Las Vegas), HPDE 1 and 2 are very limited passing as Chad stated, with an instructor in your car in HPDE 1, and HPDE 2 if you desire one. HPDE 3 is faster, and the equivalent of an intermediate/ advanced-intermediate level. There is passing in designated areas of the track that are defined in the driver's meeting (always on straights), but no point by is required (although always welcome and appreciated), and passing is usually on either side of the car, although sometimes the HPDE 3 lead instructor will make exceptions. HPDE 4 is our advanced run group. Advanced drivers, instructors, and racers can all run in HPDE 4. There is open passing anywhere on the track, and this can be a very fast group (often with high powered Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, Vipers, etc.). Each of our HPDE levels come with instruction in one form or another (no extra charges for in-car or classroom instruction with us). There are "download" sessions after every run session for all levels of HPDE, where the lead instructor or director goes over various aspects of that particular session, or any of a variety of other pertinent topics. There is no timing of HPDE 1 and 2 vehicles. HPDE 3 and 4 cars can run with a transponder, and times are posted after every session, but there is no competition. The times are for driver education only to improve consistency, and to see how various changes made in driving technique during sessions corresponds to changes in times. HPDE 4 drivers are eligible to run in NASA Time Trial (TT). This is actual competition based on the run times obtained during the HPDE 4 sessions (or during TT only sessions when available). In our region, we have daily and annual awards based on competition results. TT is a great way to bridge between HPDE and full racing. About 20% of our drivers go on to full racing. Greg, that is very interesting information. If you know, hows does the nasa region get away with allowing timing of HPDE drivers? It is my understanding that once the session is timed it is no longer a school and different insurance rates apply. Do the different regions all get insurance from the main NASA or are they required to find their own carrier? If the latter then I can understand why different regions would have different rules but if the former then all regions should be allowed to time. As far as your cage questions are concerned, I referred you to the NASA CCR's in another thread that you asked about this. I would do some research before using Chromoly instead of steel DOM. I believe that some of the Road Rally organizations (in Nevada) have now made Chomoly illegal because of the increased risk of cracking (instead of bending). I'm not an expert in this field, but after talking to some, I decided that the weight saved wasn't worth the cost(s) for my purposes. Also, I may want to do one or two of those rallies someday. I agree, skip the chromoly and just get the DOM cage. You will pay at least 2x the amount in labor for someone to correctly and SAFELY weld up a chromoly cage vs a DOM cage and per the NASA CCR there is NO benifit. Chromoly isn't lighter, only stronger (if welded correctly now), so while they both must be the same size, they will also be the same weight. --chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 7, 2004 National Staff Share Posted December 7, 2004 Chad, You would have to ask Ryan about the insurance question. However, having times for HPDE 3 and 4 in our region is clearly just an instruction tool to help gauge and improve driving skill, performance, and consistancy. There is no competition involved until someone gets involved in NASA TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Greg, that is very interesting information. If you know, hows does the nasa region get away with allowing timing of HPDE drivers? It is my understanding that once the session is timed it is no longer a school and different insurance rates apply. Because of NASA's excellent safety record, our company is happy to supply insurance for Time Trial events. Some HPDE cars fall into those groups. Since cars are racing against the clock, and not against each other, it is a much lower risk event. NASA Nationally maintains a high level of insurance- usually twice what tracks require for rental- which is the same for all regions and covers everything, all of TT, Racing and HPDE (unless there is a special event which requires something non-standard). For your own car insurance, you should talk to your own insurance agent in regard to competing in Time Trial. The HPDE standard is set by National, but there is a lot of lee-way for tradition and a lot of it depends on the local group of drivers. Things like price especially are left to the local region to decide and even will vary by track. Classing also depends on the size of the group- In Las Vegas region you might be in HPDE3 since it is smaller, but in a big region like VA you might be in HPDE2- so it is always best to start in HPDE1 and work with the HPDE Group Leader on advancement. Many regions now use the HPDE Passport system which can help track your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazar Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 well as far as costs go on chromoly, for me, its not much more, i know an awesome welder here locally that im buddies with who can do it no problem, tig welding that is, since chromoly must be tigwelded the cost of hte actual weld in cage kit is only about $100 more, so its no biggy It will cut off about 30% weight and thats worth it to me, instead of being 80lb it will be more like 50, which is a nice weight savings either way, i'll see about it, i like having it being lighter and i like the quality of tig welding anyways, plus this guy welds like no other, he does crazy stuff for custom homes and industrial style projects but thanks for the help guys, i cant wait to join hpde in early 05 with the acr just gotta find some comfy seats and a 5 point harness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civicrr Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 NorCal HPDE is run almost exactly like SoCal with the exception of no timing unless you do TT which is only in H4. I would seriously consider using DOM for the cage. It really will be cheaper. Since there isn't an allowance for running a thinner wall with CrMo, there really won't be much weight savings. It will also be easier to repair or make additions. If you like the look of TIG welding, DOM can still be TIG'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 plus this guy welds like no other, he does crazy stuff for custom homes and industrial style projects It is always good to have your cage welded by a cage fabricator, not a welder with another specialty. There are specifics to cage building, and knowledge of the rules, that are important to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
test Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 plus this guy welds like no other, he does crazy stuff for custom homes and industrial style projects It is always good to have your cage welded by a cage fabricator, not a welder with another specialty. There are specifics to cage building, and knowledge of the rules, that are important to know. Cage design, fabrication and welding are all completely different disciplines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Cage design, fabrication and welding are all completely different disciplines. You know what I mean. Get someone who has done it before, who's previous cages you can inspect. Don't go to a fence builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazar Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 plus this guy welds like no other, he does crazy stuff for custom homes and industrial style projects It is always good to have your cage welded by a cage fabricator, not a welder with another specialty. There are specifics to cage building, and knowledge of the rules, that are important to know. well the cage is prefabricated, so all he has to do is weld and he has done ALOT of work for different drag race teams and has built and welded many cages for his personal drag race cars He is a mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, designer and fabricator, so he;s like one of those rare guys, not just a hillbilly dude who has a welding skill He has much experience in welding and fabicating stuff for race cars, including roll cages, chassis work and custom chassis fabrication For the cost though, i am reconsidering my options and may just go with a simple 8 point dom tubing kit, although still have him weld it, since i dont trust my welding just yet, although im getting hte hang of it, we have a nice mig welder at home but he tig welds, and thats always nicer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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