bnewport Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Planning on replacing my fuel lines with these from Lindsey racing. Main reason is just durability and improve fire control (given Florida incident a couple of weeks back) over the stock ones. I don't see any performance advantage except for spending the 300 bucks cuts in to my track time slowing me down... http://www.lindseyracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LR&Category_Code=FUELLINES Anyone see an issue with me doing this rules wise? Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Planning on replacing my fuel lines with these from Lindsey racing. Main reason is just durability and improve fire control (given Florida incident a couple of weeks back) over the stock ones. I don't see any performance advantage except for spending the 300 bucks cuts in to my track time slowing me down... http://www.lindseyracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LR&Category_Code=FUELLINES" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Anyone see an issue with me doing this rules wise? Billy Billy, thanks for asking. These sort of things are good to run by us for a case by case opinion. As this is clearly a safety only issue, I have no problem with it. They also offer thermal insulation - that is more of a grey area. The stock lines do have some foam insulation, but the LR stuff may well be superior, so I would wait for an opinion from Joe when he gets back from Nationals on that. Go ahead with the fuel lines themselves, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnewport Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 I'm pulling the dash out also and replacing the shifter boot with the simpson nomex one. I'll rip out unnecessary wiring inside the car also over the winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I'm pulling the dash out also and replacing the shifter boot with the simpson nomex one. I'll rip out unnecessary wiring inside the car also over the winter. Are you done for the year already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnewport Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Probably, I'm away from oct 3 to 14 so I think that's pretty much it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 It is a gray area that I will need to address formally in th 2010 rules. Not sure what the wording will be, but the stock lines are very expensive and given their placement require some heat shielding. An argument could be made about trying to "cool the fuel lines", but I believe saftey over drives that argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnewport Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 It's like the fancy fuel argument, I'd like to see a dyno showing the hp improvement proving this one way or the other. I don't believe it'd make enough of a difference given the stock lines already have foam on them. Header wrapping is also reducing heat in the engine bay which possibly cools the fuel also but I wrapped my headers to give the oil cooler a break on long sessions because of heat soak causing my oil pressure to drop as the temp rose. Hasn't happened since I did it and it's cheaper than an oil cooler which a lot of people are running. So, can I put on the fuel lines with no issue. The fire proofing aka insulation I'm planning on installing also. This isn't sold as insulation, it's sold as a fire barrier. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM05 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I can't speak to the rules implication, but I will point out that the Lindsey Racing kit can only be used on a late car. That might be obvious, but just in case you've got an early car, I thought I'd mention it before you spend the money. From a safety standpoint, I agree with the others that something like this seems to be a no-brainer, especially given what we all know can happen when 25 year old fuel lines decide to start leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I agree that an argument could be made for fuel cooling in some cases, but I don't see that happening with the Lindsey kit. It's just rubber inside of metal braid, attached to the stock metal hard line. The stock lines are just thick rubber attached to a metal hard line. Metal is obviously much more thermally conductive than rubber alone, so if anything the Lindsey kit is going to be heating your fuel slightly, especially on late cars which run the lines over the exhaust header. That's not going to help you. If you wanted to cool your fuel, you'd want to actually replace a rubber line with metal (not just put a braid around it), and do that in a location that's somewhat cool... The engine bay is pretty much the worst place to do that. My early car leaked when I got it in 2006, so in the interests of safety, I've always been using the Lindsey Racing kit. It's not really meant for early 944's, but it can be made to work. I asked about its legality back when I installed it... viewtopic.php?f=40&t=13254 Guys, It is a fuel line. Stock fuel lines are rubber and will fail over time as any rubber part will. Just the nature of rubber. Factory original replacements require you to replace the entire hardline back to the tank. Therefore in the interest of reliability and safety you may replace the stock lines with replacement lines provided that they are safe for the application. Remember they get exposed to heat and high pressure fuel so you must select the proper hose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 It is a gray area that I will need to address formally in th 2010 rules. Yeah, we really need something about generic replacement parts in general, as that's a big gray area for us. Whether people realize it or not, we're all running some smaller parts that are not OEM, but rather OEM-equivalent aftermarket, or updated OEM parts (for example, new DME relays have a 993 part number on them). That's the reality of having 21-26 year old cars, especially ones that came from an expensive manufacturer. It needs to be clear that it's legal for replacing some things, but not all. This is a necessity for fuel lines, vacuum lines, valves, electrical parts, etc., but obviously we don't want to allow that for pistons or certain other items. It wouldn't really be a rule change, just a necessary clarification now that we're a bigger class with a national championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Billy, I like the idea of a nomex shifter boot. Source? What was the Florida incident you're referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Tim, there was a fatal 944 fire in Florida recently. Because of that, I have made some improvements already and have plans for many more in the next several months. I now have a Simpson nomex shift boot that they make for NASCAR. It fits onto our shifters and should offer much more fire protection than the rubber boots that most of us use now. I purchased mine from Summit Racing for $61.95 including shipping. I am very happy with it. It was on the car for Nationals. I am also interested in better fuel lines in the engine compartment as that seems to be where the failure occured in the Florida incident. In any case, it could be a bad place for a failure. Big Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 What was the Florida incident you're referring to? A 944 had an engine fire during a race, and the driver tried to continue driving to a corner worker station... He got there, but was in bad shape. Last I heard, it was apparently mostly steam burns. They got him out of the car, the car then burnt to the ground, and he died in the hospital a few days later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 God damn it. I'm sincerely very sorry to hear that. That hurts. I'm not being morbid when I say I want to learn all that happened. Where can I read about this incident? I want to learn what we can do to help prevent injury or death in our 944's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Also: 1. the fuel pump stops when you turn the key off. 2. Take a good look at your firewall to ensure that all holes are covered with SHEET METAL. 3. I never thought of the shifter hole as being a fire danger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM05 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 God damn it. I'm sincerely very sorry to hear that. That hurts. I'm not being morbid when I say I want to learn all that happened. Where can I read about this incident? I want to learn what we can do to help prevent injury or death in our 944's. Tim, There's a thread here that contains links to some discussion of the incident on SpecMiata.com, and pictures of the car: http://944spec.org/944SPEC/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,30/func,view/id,5436/catid,9/ In fact, the Spec Miata crowd seems to have a lot of general safety/survivability stuff figured out, so a general browse around their site can turn up a lot of good info about building a safe racecar which could be applicable to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 From what I read, the pin was NOT removed from the bottle and the handle had been pulled out about a foot but could not trigger the system because of the pin. If that is true, a BIG flag/ribbon on the pin could help prevent this situation. I have been guilty of this myself and am recommitted to making sure it does not happen again. Joe P. jumped my ass about it at Miller and pulled the pin on my system during Wednesday practice. He should have kicked me around the paddock for going out on the track even once with the pin still in. Thanks Joe, once again, for yet another assist to the Big Dog. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Yes... pulling the pin to your fire system is a big thing. It does you know good if the pin is still in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM05 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 A few years ago I worked in tech at an SCCA National weekend, and the one item that we tech'd after the qualifying session on the first day, on every single car, was to check that the fire pin was removed. I was surprised to see that about 95% of the cars came off track with the pin still in the bottle or trigger. Many of these were top-level teams with stackers, crew, etc., and the great majority of them did not have 'pull the pin from the fire bottle' on their pre-session checklist. After seeing that, I now remove the pin at the beginning of the weekend. If it accidentally goes off at some point during the event, oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 If it's a fire system, pull the pin for sure, but if it's just a handheld bottle, I'm less convinced... being that it's part of the trigger mechanism and is pretty big and obvious, I can't see missing that, but I can see pulling it ahead of time and then activating it accidentally or prematurely. Fire extinguisher chemical isn't very fun to breathe in or get in your eyes... I don't want that going off until I'm ready, otherwise it's only going to hinder my ability to get out of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryM05 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I agree that leaving the pin in is not quite as big of an issue with a bottle as with a system (if the car is on fire and all I've got is a handheld extinguisher, I don't exactly see myself sitting there in the car fumbling around with the bottle - I'm just gonna get out as quickly as possible and worry about the car later.) But in my opinion it's worth the risk of an accidental discharge against having one more thing to deal with and remember in an already confusing/scary moment, if for some reason I found myself having to actually use the handheld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 If you are stuck in the car, and it's burning, you're going to want whatever extinguisher you have ready to go. You should be able to do this by feel. You don't want to be wondering which way the pin goes out, or, in a panic, wasting time trying to use it with the pin in. Our race director explained the story behind his 3rd degree burns recently. He had left the pin in the handle of his fire system, figuring he could reach it to pull it out when he needed it. Well, when that time came, he reached for the fire handle, and pulled the handle off, pin holding the cable in place, fire system now useless. It just illustrates how things can go bad, and how you don't want to assume you'll have the presence of mind to think things through. Make it simple, and practice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnewport Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Tim, there was a fatal 944 fire in Florida recently. Because of that, I have made some improvements already and have plans for many more in the next several months. I now have a Simpson nomex shift boot that they make for NASCAR. It fits onto our shifters and should offer much more fire protection than the rubber boots that most of us use now. I purchased mine from Summit Racing for $61.95 including shipping. I am very happy with it. It was on the car for Nationals. I am also interested in better fuel lines in the engine compartment as that seems to be where the failure occured in the Florida incident. In any case, it could be a bad place for a failure. Big Dog Thats the Simpson one which I bought from simpson racing direct. Any photos on how you installed it? It looks the wrong size, did you make an adapter? How did you install it? Anyone pulling their dashes out now also? I bought the Lindsey Racing fuel lines today, arriving end of week. Prepping the car for the 9 hour enduro at Road Atlanta in December. Given it's E2 rules, will a new set of hoosiers last the 9 hours? Whats a good lap time for a 944 spec at Road Atlanta? Practising now on iRacing using a VW TDI cup (closest thing to 944...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmmotorsports Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Whats a good lap time for a 944 spec at Road Atlanta? 1:52's were what I ran in June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Whats a good lap time for a 944 spec at Road Atlanta? 1:52's were what I ran in June. He asked for a good lap time, Michael. Will you be up there in November? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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