944-Spec#94 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Guys, I deleted the contact video thread. Here is why... Contact situations like this are pending discussion and evalution by series officials. I had requested that the following car create the video to for the reasons helping determine what happend. I do not feel it is appropriate to post the video for discussion. Sure there is something to be learned, but the decisions made are not up for debate and will never be swayed by racer opinion. The only way videos can be posted like this is with the consent of both drivers in the situation and after the Incident Review board has had time make ruling. Even the ruling is the ruling. Using these public boards as a way to "counter" the actual ruling by the officials is considered bad form. Not saying that this was the case here, but i know both drivers did no ok the posting of it. For those that missed the original post I will summarize for learning purposes only as I do feel there is a learning aspect to this. A car stalled from the group in front of the 944s stalled during the pace lap (double yellow) before grid formation. The car stalled on the edge of the line, but still on track. A number of cars passed the area which had a waiving yellow without incident. One car as he was passing by slow down very rapidly and unexpectedly while side by side with the stopped car. The following car was unable to slow at the same rate the hit the first car causing some frame damage to the lead car Both cars continued. The following car was given a penalty and found at fault for failing to control their car under a waiving yellow. Waiving yellows have a STONG requirement for drivers to prepare to stop at any time. This is in the NASA CCR's and the driving factor here. Now there are some complicated situations surrounding this, but there are two key learnings. 1) During a waiving yellow you MUST be prepared for anything. If you hit someone for any reason you will likely be found at fault since the rules put the responsibility clearning the incident on all the following cars. Prepare for the unexpected and back off. Most of do this, but not to the degree expected and required in the rules. If something happens there is a 95% chance the following car gets tagged with fault and some penatly. So take a waiving very yellow seriously. 2) Be predictable. If you do something unexpected you run the risk that some one else will not be ready. The resulting contact could be your fault or the other guy, but either way you have to deal with a damaged car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Joe, can you be more specific about the CCR that was violated? I saw the video and do not believe that I would have done anything much differently, which means that I would have been at fault too. In addition, what penalty was imposed? For me, it is important to understand the rules and what they mean as it has always been my fear of violating a rule without meaning too. It would be even worse to do so and cause damage to cars as a result. Big Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulB Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) Jim here are the rules- with clear penalties listed in the CCR's. I'm sure you all have read them, know them and have them with at the track as the rules state. Let's make this a learning moment! I'll post the key words below the rule....that apply 19.3.5 Yellow Flag - Waving Categories: Command; Advisory; Local. Description: A solid waving yellow flag, displayed at a flag station(s) found anywhere around the course. Uses: This is used locally, to advise drivers that there is extreme danger in the immediate area. Command: Drivers shall SIGNIFICANTLY SLOW THEIR VEHICLES in preparation for any necessary evasive maneuvers, or coming to a complete stop to avoid a striking potential hazard. NO PASSING is permitted, until completely past the incident, or until past the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s), whichever comes first. [Note: If this flag is displayed to indicate a hazard on, or near the course, it may be rescinded after two (2) laps even if the hazard remains. However, when this flag is used to protect Safety and/or Tow Personnel it should remain displayed for as long as necessary.] Waving Yellow-slow vehicle significantly-prep for ANY evasive maneuvers or come to a complete stop to avoid striking A POTENTIAL HAZARD! 27.11 Issuing Penalties The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction: 1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty 2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty 3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition 4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension 5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification 6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension 7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum) 8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum) #8 This is easily over driving a waving yellow- I think hitting a car would qualify=DQ MINIMUM #4 Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension 23.1.3 Knowledge and Possession of the Rules All drivers must know all of the rules, especially those pertaining to safety items. Additionally, all drivers must have the appropriate rule books in their possession, or have immediate access to them at all times. All drivers must know and have in their possession the CCR's (look for this to come up the next incident) *Everyone not just racers 27.7 Finding Fault IRB members should make use of Appendix A from the CCR to help establish fault. IRB members should be cautioned about relying on their “racer’s instinct” to decide cases. If a driver is technically at fault, then they are at fault. The IRB has the power to deviate from the body contact rules, however it is very important that the IRB remain consistent when finding fault and issuing penalties. If there are mitigating circumstances that cause the IRB to deviate from the precedence, guidelines, and rules listed in the CCR, then the IRB should include the details of these circumstances in their report to the Race Director. Common situations are listed below: Finding Fault-IRB should not rely on "racers instinct" to decide-If a driver is technically at fault, then they are at fault. Also I keep seeing double yellow posted....WAVING YELLOW!!! If it was a just a double yellow that's different. __________________ Loud pipes save lives! PaulB Edited October 11, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Also I keep seeing double yellow posted....WAVING YELLOW!!! If it was a just a double yellow that's different. I agree, waving yellow is different and deserves a much more serious look at what happened. I didn't see that on the video but it's always hard to see flags on the little videos anyway so I will take your word for it. But it was a bonehead move on the part of the guy that *got* hit to lock his brakes up like that. When the video was online it sure looked like the guy in front got surprised by the car there. Don't know what the penalties were for this but I hope at least some fault was assessed to both cars. edit: just wanted to add, big props to Joe for posting about the original modded post instead of just deleting it! That says a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman#99 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 We all have a responsibility to be PREDICTABLE, if that is not a responsibility that is seriously considered, then we can take anybody out that we want when they are behind us and there is any type of flag!!!!!! Although we have been asked to not comment on this, if folks are going to start quoting scripture, I feel that some common sense shoud be thrown into the mix as well. "And that's all I have to say about that" quote from Forest Gump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Lets use this experience as something to learn from. I removed the video since I did not want everyone watching and tring to say he should have done this or that. The fact neither drivers were boneheads in this. I have talked with both and understand what both guys were thinking. Yes mistake were made and in racing when multiple drivers make mistakes contact is often the result. Bottomline is that you MUST be able to control your car during a waiving yellow. The rules require that. If you are driving at pace where a car in front can slow down rapidly and you then can't.... SLOW DOWN and LEAVE ROOM. Norman's other point about being predictable is also valid. If you are not predictable in situations like these you are basicly forcing the other drivers to be on their game to avoid you. Some might see it and avoid you. Others might not be leaving enough margin and then you are in trouble. As a driver never try to leave yourself in a spot where someone else has to be perfectly aware to avoid you. It may not be "your fault", but your car is still damaged. Also note that contact that occurs in Az races will be monitored and reviewed. Penalties will be issued persuant to the CCRs. It is a very good idea to review the CCRs for expectations on driver conduct in all situations so that you have a better idea of your responsibilities when on track. The penalty in this case was the driver of the following car was DQ-ed from the race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulB Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 We all have a responsibility to be PREDICTABLE, if that is not a responsibility that is seriously considered, then we can take anybody out that we want when they are behind us and there is any type of flag!!!!!! Although we have been asked to not comment on this, if folks are going to start quoting scripture, I feel that some common sense shoud be thrown into the mix as well. "And that's all I have to say about that" quote from Forest Gump WE MUST TRUST race control and the commands of the flags. Again under a "waving yellow" you should be able to come to a complete stop to avoid a potential hazard! (I don't think a standing yellow or double yellow specifically mentions stopping, ect...) a potential hazard is a slowing or stopped car especially next to the incident car. Here is some more scripture : ) about being predictable when you were talking about "stopping on a course and being able to take someone out under any flag." 25.9 Stopping On Course Stopping on course is expressly prohibited unless in the event of an emergency. “Stopping” includes abrupt and/or unexpected slowing to a near stop. Stopping to help a disabled car is prohibited. An emergency, for the purposes of this section, is defined as only those concerning medical problems, mechanical failure, on-board fire, or damage from an incident that renders the vehicle unfit to continue. 27.11 Issuing Penalties The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction: 1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty 2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty 3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition 4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension 5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification 6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension 7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum) I think 4 "might" apply if it were under different flag or race conditions during a race Car A would get the penalty-under Norms scenario 4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman#99 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hey Paul, I tried to call you but got a recording that wouldn't let me leave a message. Thanks for finding and clearifying the rules, this really does help. I have a question about "25.9 Stopping On Course" is this rule excluded during a double yellow? I didn't see it written anywere if it is, but maybe it is elsewere in the CCR's. Obviously the purpose of this rule is to prevent an unpredictable situation that could cause a crash, in this sitution if 25.9 was active, here again is the list of things you are allowed to stop for according to the rule, but not any of them appied to this situation: Stopping on course is expressly prohibited unless in the event of an emergency. “Stopping” includes abrupt and/or unexpected slowing to a near stop. Stopping to help a disabled car is prohibited. An emergency, for the purposes of this section, is defined as only those concerning medical problems, mechanical failure, on-board fire, or damage from an incident that renders the vehicle unfit to continue. During the pace laps, all cars were in a smooth flow, there was no passing so they had to be all going near the same speed. I think this is a great rule, it just, justified it's existance, unless it doesn't exist during a double yellow. Let me know your thoughts and hopefully this will help us all. (holy crap, I am watching the American Lemans race while doing this and if your not, you have to see the end of it OH MY GOD!!!!) Makes this conversation pretty small!!! GT2 crash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Yes, that was a "real" crash. The Vett driver may be sore tomorrow. It is interesting to look at that incident as well, from a learning stand point. What follows is meant to be from the perspective of our rules and not whatever rules the ALMS series uses. It appears that the Vett dive bombed the Porsche and move it going into the corner to gain a partial advantage. The Porsche was still the "lead car" as the Vett never "completed" the pass (clear of the overtaken car). Here are my questions. Could the lead car have simply recovered as best he could and still have won due to a penalty being assessed to the Vett? Did the lead car (the Porsche) have the right to any line he wanted? Did any right to the line change as the Vett got a bigger overlap position? It was hard to see exactly what happened at the end. It looked like the Porsche moved away from the wall some and then the Vett moved out as well, caught the front fender of the Porsche with his rear corner and got turned into the outside wall. Understanding this incident, from our rules perspective, would be great. Big Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulB Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Norm, I didn't get the call prob due to new number. It was a waving yellow maybe two flags were visable but a local waving yellow is serious "Command Flag" as seen on the video---> as far as ALMS... I don't have a clue- I just wanted to bring up some things that are in the CCR's for discussion purposes. If you two look in appendix A in the CCR's there are various scenerio's that we all have seen at the track. The purpose of my "quoting scripture" as you referred earlier was simply to bring attention to the CCR's, hopefully some will now look at them that might not have. This- just my unofficial input as a racer---> for dialog... with respect to your question as to whether if a waving local trumps a standing, double yellow or (29.5) under green flag conditions. I think the penalties listed below in the CCR's might be inciteful. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum) 124 8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum) I could be wrong but between a double yellow or a waving yellow -I would hope everyone error on the side of waving yellow. Since it specifically says be able to come to a complete stop in the rules when under a LOCAL waving yellow and a Global double yellow say's you don't need to significantly slow down with exceptions...pace car,... I would think you would follow the "local " waving yellow command flag rather than the GLOBAL flag as the waving yellow would be most important. If it is confusing for some perhaps the rules need to say a local command waving yellow trumps a global standing double yellow but as you said earlier maybe we need to interject a little common sense into this stuff--- (I think you guys are pulling my leg ... : ) 19.2 Signal (i.e. flag) Categories There are five basic categories of signals (flags). Any given signal (flag) can fit into any one or more of the following categories. 1. Global signals provide information about the entire course and/or the status of the session. 2. Local signals provide information about the conditions that pertain to a particular section of track. 3. Personal signals provide information that is specifically meant for a particular driver only. 4. Command signals dictate an order to follow the applicable procedures listed in this section, and immediate compliance is mandated. Certain Command signals may also provide some advisory information, in addition to issuing a mandatory order. This is a side benefit. 5. Advisory signals provide useful information, or to serve as a warning, to the driver(s). This information is not a command, and is meant simply to inform or advise the driver(s). 19.3.5 Yellow Flag - Waving Categories: Command; Advisory; Local. Description: A solid waving yellow flag, displayed at a flag station(s) found anywhere around the course. Uses: This is used locally, to advise drivers that there is extreme danger in the immediate area. Command: Drivers shall SIGNIFICANTLY SLOW THEIR VEHICLES in preparation for any necessary evasive maneuvers, or coming to a complete stop to avoid a striking potential hazard. NO PASSING is permitted, until completely past the incident, or until past the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s), whichever comes first. [Note: If this flag is displayed to indicate a hazard on, or near the course, it may be rescinded after two (2) laps even if the hazard remains. However, when this flag is used to protect Safety and/or Tow Personnel it should remain displayed for as long as necessary.] 19.3.6 Double Yellow Flags Categories: Command; Global. Description: Two (2) solid motionless yellow flags, displayed at every manned flag station around the course. Uses: NO PASSING is permitted. This is used to indicate “a full course yellow.” This means that there might be a problem somewhere on the track. Drivers are NOT required to significantly slow their vehicles, however they should be prepared to encounter a “local Yellow Flag” situation and/or a Pace Car (or a very slow moving pack behind the Pace Car). The displaying of Double Yellow Flags does not guarantee the appearance of a Pace Car. It is a command that NO PASSING IS ALLOWED until the Pace Car has pulled off the course (if applicable) and the driver has passed next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s). Reference Pace Car [Ref:(19.4.1)], [Ref:(20.12)], and [Ref:(20.13.1)] 19.3.4 Yellow Flag - Standing Categories: Command; Advisory; Local. Description: A solid motionless yellow flag, displayed at any flag station(s) found anywhere around the course. Uses: This is used locally, to advise drivers that a hazard is close; and is usually displayed at one or more of the flag stations just before reaching a Waving Yellow. Command: Drivers shall SLOW THEIR VEHICLES in preparation for any evasive maneuvers that may be necessary to avoid a potential hazard. ABSOLUTELY NO PASSING is permitted, until completely past the incident, or until past next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s), whichever comes first. [Note: If this flag is displayed to indicate a hazard on, or near the course, it may be rescinded after two (2) laps even if the hazard remains. However, when this flag is used to protect Safety and/or Tow Personnel it should remain displayed for as long a necessary.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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